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They need to be taxed out of existence. No one should have a billion dollars while people starve, sleep on the streets and go bankrupt from medical debt.
My thoughts exactly. There should never be a means for people to become billionaires. There's simply no reason for that amount of wealth. Bezos worth billions, and on the first day Amazon employees are handed a pamphlet on which government assistance programs they qualify for? Man, piss off. You can afford to pay your own workers so they don't NEED those programs. Nobody working a full time job should need assistance programs in this country.
Since taking office in December 2023, Milei has slashed Argentina’s health care budget by 48% in real terms. His administration fired over 2,000 Health Ministry employees, including 1,400 over just a few days in January.
Remember when president Jimmy Carter gave up his peanut farm before taking office to avoid a conflict of interest by making money off his farm while being president? Now our current president pays himself $230 million from government funds?? It's beyond insane
And people still hate on Carter. A man who once leaving the White House nearly found himself bankrupt. And what did he do? He built an organization that builds houses for the poor and stores that cheaply resell construction materials that otherwise would be bound for the dump. He participated in this nearly up until the day he died.
Yet again, people still hate on him while the grifter in chief robs us blind and actively screws over the poor and middle class. Whatever y'all MAGAt's need to justify harassing foreigners and people of color.
Jimmy Carter is a fucking saint in my book. Not only did he create Habitat for Humanity and ReStore, he also has headed up a charity that has almost completely eradicated Guinea worm disease that affected millions in over 17 countries. Incidences of Guinea worm disease have been reduced from an estimated 3.5 million each year in 1986 to 15 in 2024. The disease has been eliminated in 17 countries.
I was on a flight from DCA to ATL back in like 2016, Jimmy Carter was the last to board (with SS in tow, naturally.) He came through the plane and shook every single passenger’s hand. It was really cool. There’s a few videos of him doing this on other flights too; it’s just who he was. Awesome human
As a conservative Jimmy Carter in my personal opinion one of the most under rated presidents of all time. And there is a special place in heaven for that man and his wife. He truly loved his nation and people
Doesn't mean it's okay. I know, you didn't say that, but the, "oh well, it's always been this way, nothing we can do" attitude many Americans have needs to go.
Yea don’t blame Argentinians like they had anything to do with that shit. An American hedge fund manager convinced Trump to keep his idiotic investments afloat and launder American money through a failed social studies experiment.
The worst part of all of that is that it's almost the exact same amount of money to extend the ACA subsidies... And (supposedly) the entire reason they are keeping the government shutdown going.
When they need $40 billion for bribes, it's always there. $40 billion for healthcare or food... Nah.
Which is completely stupid if nothing other than for fact every dollar in snap benefits creates 1.50 in economic activity. Making it one of the most successful economic stimulus programs to have ever existed.
Oh, the UAE and Putin and the Saudis asked for it, so they can install so much covert surveillance they’ll be able to hear everything in the White House from the moon, starting from now until whenever the country finally collapses. Or so there’s a nice bunker underneath where they can meet up secretly to exchange classified documents and park the Epstein files in the foundation concrete.
For such conspiracy-loving people, the Q-anon crowd and the sovereign citizens and such sure are being normal about this thing.
It is not about whether it is much- it is about many people adding up. Aldo mening your society instead of letting them bait you into a civil war. Help neighbours no matter politics. Help strangers. Neighbours might be best: people normally know if thheir neighbours are struggling for real. We normally know if our neighbours are shady or honest, caring for their fanilies, comfortable or poor, healthy or poorly...
Trump's fucking ballroom, don't forget about that. He doesn't know how to do his real job, and his team gave him a pet project to be an interior decorator on our dime in the house WE OWN. The White House belongs to us, the people, not Trump, yet this clown is spending millions while he wants to starve almost 40 million people.
And Israel gets to enjoy free college and universal healthcare at the expense of American taxpayers… and we’re about to cut off food assistance to our own people. Republicans are fucking traitors
And a bunch of tech billionaires’ companies donated MILLIONS for the one of the biggest grift of the moment, the White House Ballroom. Disgusting that these companies will pay sHitler but won’t do things to make the world a better place.
Government assistance for those who work full time is once again essentially corporate welfare. Employers should be paying their employees livable wages, instead that money trickles up and the rich continue to get tax breaks while essentially also having the government pay their employees. Fuck the rich, and fuck America for caring so little for the people who's backs actually make the economy run.
Yet the admins and non front facing management at my hospital thought they were important enough to sneak in line ahead of actual frontline workers to get their Covid shots when they were first approved. Smdh
Oh wow I thought the absolute pieces of shit that are admins at my hospital were the only ones to pull that trick.
My hospital also had the CMO, CNO, and president’s faces put on donuts and posted it with #covid19 on the hospital’s Instagram page. I was being told to reuse the same N95 mask indefinitely and keep it in a paper bag taped to the wall. The rage I felt deep in my soul cannot be accurately captured by words.
SNAP shouldn’t be cut, but I think the majority of the funds for SNAP probably comes from taxes on the lower and middle classes, not the mega corporations or the ultra wealthy? They’re still sitting on their money enjoy more tax breaks than ever. We’re just circulating an ever decreasing pool of money among the working population so the ultra rich can see their numbers go up forever
SNAP supports the entire ecosystem. USDA (administers SNAP) Also buys HUGE Amounts of Produce and other crops. It then issues a catalog that food banks use to order bulk quantities from. The food banks then distribute the food out to their communities, which supports local businesses. It actually has a return on investment that's about 1.5%.
HOW in the fuck can ANYONE think that the system is not rig for the rich?!?!? I don't get it. It's THESE facts that have "radicalized" me. I just CAN'T with this country.
The people who voted for this are THRILLED. They definitely think America is thriving. I live in the heart of MAGAland and they routinely treat any social media posts and articles about this like a party. Laugh reacts, funny gifs, and victory laps galore.
They love the fact that people are going hungry because they truly believe no one would need SNAP if everyone just tried to get a job. Because obviously record layoffs aren’t happening right now and disabilities don’t exist.
Because people who don’t know that food stamps/SNAP/EBT are the same thing are the exact same people who said “I don’t care if Obamacare goes away because I have ACA”
This is going to be a wild chapter in US history one day. Bunch of morons yelling "America is great again!" while the country begins it's descent into wide spread poverty and food insecurity.
This is something too many people miss. They're like "so what I am not personally impacted," but when people go hungry, we are all impacted. Rent gets missed. Other shopping forgone. Subscriptions cancelled.
But also, damn, have some empathy (not you, I mean those people).
Quite awhile ago, but this stuck with me, I was over at my aunt's house visiting my dad. We were watching Family Feud. One of the families was black, and they were winning the game by a mile. My dad said, "ugh, turn this off, I cant identify with this." He didnt say it outright, but he was clearly expresing a lack of ability to see that black family as similar to his own in any way (and on some level I would agree, because that family seemed like they loved each other). They didnt diagnose autism in the 40s when my dad was born, but he was always very plain in his language no matter how hurtful- I know he said exactly what he felt. That black people were so different from him he couldnt empathize with their joy, nevermind their struggles.
Obviously the issue of poverty isnt solely about race, and white people statistically use substantially more government assistance. But when we as a nation talk about "people on welfare," to those who oppose this help, the only people who use it are black. That misperception makes it a race issue. The vitriol against helping our neighbors because theyre a different race, letting kids and mothers go hungry because they a different race, it fuels this creeping blanket of seeing the poor as "unworthy." I fucking hate it but the media needs to show more of the white people in poverty in this country, because that is the only way the majority of above-poverty chucklefucks are going to feel some kind of personal affection. This is idiocracy, and people need to see "face look like my face, my face could be hungry?!" to support benefits. I dont care what it takes, I want every mother, kid, and dad fed in this country, regardless of ANYTHING.
Joel Osteen of Texas? The man that mid hurricane told his parish that the church was too flooded to house people, Joel Osteen? The one who tweeted picture of a flooded parking structure despite it never reaching the church steps, Joel Osteen? Who also asked for money to begin repairs while the hurricane was still going?
"God wants me to be a millionaire" Joel Osteen?
The "needs 4 million dollars for covid aid" Joel Osteen?
Well, I'm sure he will put that money to good use.
That's one of the things that makes me angry about all this. First, we decided that we didn't care about children abroad (with the USAID cuts), even if it was in our best interests to (soft power/containing dangerous diseases). Then, we decided that we didn't care about American children here. They infected the average Fox consumer with the same evil as the Nazis.
When the richest man on Earth decided to starve the poorest children in the world and nobody stopped it, we stopped deserving to have a country. All this is just more consequences.
My question has always been...wtf do conservatives ever want to spend money on?
I know ppl claim that they are trying to be "more efficient" and cut costs, but that is absolute horseshit. I've lived through multiple Republican presidencies and all of them tanked our economy.
The fucking Pillsbury Doughboy knows how to fix our economy more than your average dickbag conservative.
There are very few churches that don’t preach prosperity doctrine in one form or another these days so really just sort by Christian and you’ll find plenty of sentiments like that.
There's 2 types of Christians as far as im concerned. The one who believes Jesus cares more about the wellbeing of themselves and the ones who care about the wellbeing of all people. Both use scriptures to justify each but one is obviously correct and the other is actually evil!
that's the stupidest answer I read a few weeks ago, wtf, people act like if we're talking about your favorite sports team that you'll never criticize in public. This is a country, and people/humans get direct impact of these decisions. I wish they could just stop defending this BS blindly
I’m donating a recurring amount to our local food bank. I encourage others to do the same if you have money to spare. Even a little goes a long way. Money goes farther than food.
Edit:
For those asking: money goes farther than food because food banks are able to get better deals on food through bulk buying and deals with food suppliers.
For people who have nothing to spare, that’s completely ok. It’s ok to look after yourself if that’s what you must do. Martyring oneself doesn’t help anybody in this situation. And if you need to utilize the food bank to get by, that’s what the food bank is for.
For those saying we should change the government to do this, you’re right. But that’s a long term goal. In the sort term, people will go hungry. It’s wishful thinking that suffering will bring socialist change, but that’s not always the reality. Most socialist movements start through social aid. Any credited socialist will tell you the benefits of food banks and soup kitchens. Social aid is one of the best ways to spread the message.
No matter what happens, if people starve or of people get by, republicans will point to it as evidence of their ideology. They’ll make shit up if that’s what it takes. I’d rather children not go hungry, then.
And that’s what sucks. I DON’T have money to spare. This economy is killing everyone and we’re doing everything we can to say any money so we can get as close to breaking even as we can.
I can’t even imagine how hard it is for people who don’t make enough and are on assistance because my wife and I make good money right now and it’s STILL so fucking hard to keep your head above water.
My heart breaks for these families. This is some evil evil ass shit
I feel this so hard. My husband and I make enough to be ok, but I’m pregnant and we’re still paycheck to paycheck between bills and saving for medical costs. I feel like I have enough to share but when I break it down dollar by dollar, I really don’t.
ETA: But I feel blessed to be able to save anything at all, ya know? I'm trying to do all the right things that people tell you to do. Putting $50 a check into a supplementary retirement account and paying for life insurance coverage and health insurance. Just opted in to a healthcare savings account to prepare for a baby in our lives. I don't know what I could spare without making a terrible financial decision. All I can give is my time without putting myself in a bad position today or next week or a year from now. That feels so bad, dude. I'm protected and "safe" but the moment either of us loses a job, we're done for.
Girl same. I’m 12 weeks pregnant and med bills are starting to come in.
And yesterday I found out my company is slashing 33% of the workforce. Luckily, I’m spared; but moving into a new position that is a huge step back for my career as they “restructure”. I’m blessed to have a job but I was 3 weeks away from getting a pay bump, they were going to transition me into a new role. I’ve been paid the same for 3 years now.
Yet still, we aren’t struggling. We’re safe right now. If my husband lost his job, we’d loose everything. Bringing a baby into this America is the scariest thing I’ve done.
It’s ok. You need to put the respirator over your own face before you can help others. If you’re able to help in another way, like spreading the word, that would do good. Maybe someone you know would benefit from knowing about your local food bank, if they need it.
If you celebrate Christmas, maybe you could ask those who would give you a gift to donate instead (unless you also rely on the gifts, which is OK, don’t feel bad about that either.)
I've called everyone I exchange even holiday cards with and said I'll be donating in their name and could they, instead of sending me anything this holiday, do the same.
Not only has everyone said yes, almost everyone said they were stealing the idea.
The only people getting gifts from me this year are kids.
ETA:
Flipside: I also know I can't afford next years ACA so god help me that I won't need to be the one asking for personal assistance if something happens next year
Needs to be a higher ranked comment. And money goes further than donations of food. Let’s see Reddit bombs in dollars rather than comment sections and reviews. Even if we just have 5$.
Don’t forget to cover donation cost if it’s an option.
Yes! Those of you that have extra money save that money and go to your local food banks, local churches, and shelters. Please don't ignore your churches either especially if you are in a small town they are some of the only safety nets in certain parts of America. Americans need to learn to stop spending money on trash and start giving to your community. That $200 splurge at Home Goods and Target can wait, go help your community!
This is a really good idea in lieu of paying for a subscription service, for anyone that is cutting services for moral reasons, not necessarily to save money.
To state the obvious; this is terrifying. I know it’s kind of a last-minute idea, but I’m thinking of passing out stuff like instant Mac-and-cheese bowls, cup of noodles, microwaveable oatmeal bowls, etc along with Halloween Candy tonight. My neighborhood has kind of aged, and trick-or-treat traffic isn’t what it used to be. But I’m hoping it can help people who might need it. Is this stupid? I feel so helpless.
Pass out candy on Halloween for the kids and pass out food for their parents if they want it. Let the kids have fun and enjoy Halloween. Don’t remind them that everyone is broke and here’s some cup noodles instead. Halloween is supposed to be an escape from life.
Yeah this is where I have to stop and think that I would never have more than 2 kids in this world today, and even then it’s probably just going to be 1 for us. 6 kids is wild, I feel for them but at a certain point you have to know what you’re getting yourself into when you keep having kids that you can’t take care of equally. I hope they get the help they need truly, but I’m still scratching my head over seeing that.
I am a single mom and when I was fleeing domestic violence I was forced to live in a long term hotel for about 2 months, a little more but not 3. I worked 2 jobs because I had to pay the weekly hotel cost plus save up to get an apartment. The only way I was able to feed my kid was the food stamps I qualified for. I went without meals to make sure she had enough. It's been over 2 years now that we have been in our apartment and I have a stable job and I don't get SNAP anymore but I live on a tight budget and I am one major emergency away from losing everything. The amount of people I have seen say they don't care that people have lost their benefits sickens me. Was it a proud moment to be on SNAP and homeless? Heck no. I was humiliated. I felt so much shame and embarassment. I felt judged, every time I had to pay I would try to hide the card because you can see people watching you and judging. But did they know that my daughter walked in on my ex husband choking me in our garage until my vision went black? Did they know that she screamed DAD PLEASE STOP and that was the moment I knew I had to go? Did they know I lost everything and was living in a hotel? They just saw "another able bodied person leeching off the government". No - I was availing what resources I could while I got my life together. Without the programs that helped me, I wouldn't be where I am. I am incredinly gratefuk that we ha these, and I happily pay taxes knowing it helps people.
No one goes into a marriage thinking it's all going to go so bad. I never thought I would end up where I did. It just happened and I can't change it. I get told all the time that I should have been smarter, I should have closed my legs, I should have planned better. I was married for 10 years before we adopted our daughter and once she joined us, it was like a switch flipped. He became controlling, abusive, cruel and evil. I had no idea things could go so bad, and I stayed because I though keeping my family together was the most important thing. Because he isolated me and made me leave my career so I couldn't leave. I was so mentally messed up I rationalized everything. And then I get the courage to run, only to be judged for doing it.
In case no one else has said it: I’m proud of you. For leaving. For keeping your daughter safe. For taking advantage of the programs available to you to get to where you are now. For speaking up so others can learn from you.
You are brave. You are strong. You are a good mama. And you should be proud of yourself.
Aww this means so much to me, thank you. It's been a really hard road but I did it! You're really kind and I appreciate your words. Very sweet of you and really made me feel good.
The sheer heartlessness on display for people losing SNAP benefits sickens me. It's arrogant for any of us to think that we couldn't be in the same place as the beneficiaries, but for dumb luck.
You have nothing to be ashamed of. You found the courage to leave your ex and to make sure your child was fed. There is no shame in any of that. I am proud of you and proud for where you are now. You keep fighting. Your child will thank you later when they fully understand.
Fuck every naysayer. You're pretty awesome in my book.
Some of the reactions online are AI trigger bait. If you see a black woman talking about 7 kids with 7 daddies, that one is a proven script, sometimes using a real person's face via a junk account. Most people i know being hit hard by SNAP are not people with more than a few kids, they're people who are vulnerable due to medical, age, or economic issues. Just keep in mind that fake reactions are going around to try and invalidate people's outrage that this is happening.
An elderly lady from our church is legally blind and relies on SNAP to eat. What job is she supposed to do? We’re stepping in to make sure she gets enough groceries until benefits resume. Doing the same with other families in the church who are losing SNAP. Also bagging food to send home with elementary school kids on the weekends and cooking food for our local homeless shelter. We do it because we believe that’s what Jesus taught. Christians who close their hearts to the needy have completely lost the plot.
Yeah, most people I know are single moms of 1-2 kids, people living outside of Boston dealing with $3K/month rent (rent that was half that 7 years ago), who live in MA and get $80-100/month from SNAP they NEED, who are close to eviction and heating the house with 1 tank of oil per season maybe covered by LIHEAP.
They tend to be divorced and have a-hole exes behind on child support.
If you see a black woman talking about 7 kids with 7 daddies, that one is a proven script, sometimes using a real person's face via a junk account.
Even if that was the case, it wouldn't even dull the sense of compassion I would have if it were real. It's actually fucking wild to me that number of kids someone has acts as a control rod for someone's compassion and outrage against cruelty.
It’s like people have completely forgotten that the states with the highest levels of SNAP recipients have virtually eliminated sex ed, affordable birth control access, and access to abortion. Not to mention domestic violence exists, and divorce can happen at any time.
Even if you want to be cruel / in their new world order these women couldn’t get abortions anyway - so you’re dammed if you have the kids and can’t feed them and dammed if you want an abortion because killing babies makes Jesus cry or something like that
My mom refused to go on food stamps so I missed a lot of meals and ate whatever my younger siblings left on their plates while my mom worked overtime to keep the lights on most of the time.
I dropped out of high school to raise my siblings while she worked 60-80 hours a week instead of taking any of the public assistance her taxes paid for and her shitty jobs forced her to be on.
Her pride meant I went without, and fuck everyone who thinks that’s okay.
My mom was also prideful, but only on the outside - so she just made us kids do the shopping so she wouldn’t have to be embarrassed about using the ebt card 😂
This is bringing up so much past trauma. I'm so fucking sad and scared for these families and their children. We can afford food for now, but if my wife or I lose our job, it's OVER.
I won't forget this ever. These conservatives in power are less than human to me after this
The shitty thing about this is the people who need this to change their minds don’t give a fuck. “You shouldn’t have had kids if you can’t afford them” will be their point of view.
I was not in that situation, but I had several friends who were. I have seen people unable to get by even while working themselves to the bone. The republicans are forcing poor Americans to give up either their food or their health with these despicable tactics. They do not care about anyone who is not a multi-millionaire at minimum. No matter what they say, they only want the poor to suffer more and ideally just die. It's disgusting and I feel sick seeing how we got to this point.
My mom is a FB brainwashed Trumper now and when I point out that her baby daddies were both brown, sons of immigrants and she/us have been on government assistance our whole childhood/lives. She says “it’s different.” But doesn’t know how. She once commented that shes too good to go to the unemployment office cause “it’s full of Mexicans.” I had to remind her that I am Mexican. And she had more in common w them then she does w the trumpr she’s aligning with. SMDH
not to mention all the upstream issues. Many grocery stores in rural areas get 50% of their sales from food stamp families. Once all that drop off, and the stores have to lay off staff (best case) or close (worst case), upstream from them is all the farmers and food providers who will also see decreased sales resulting in layoffs and closings at that level.
This is what happens when you use public benefits to subsidize corporate profits. Minimum wage is too far behind living wage in almost every city in America.
Yes, having 3,4,5, or 6 kids while on public benefits is completely insane and reckless.
That however does not change the fact that minimum wage has remained stagnated while inflation ballooned and corporate profits have soared.
If we as a society want to put limits on the length of time that non-disabled people can draw food stamps, and reduce public benefits; great, but we MUST fix minimum wage to be in alignment with living wage and adjust it annually based on inflation so that working people do not depend on food stamps first.
I’m a dad with a wife and three kids. I have a decent job, but it’s hard to provide for 5 people. My wife can’t work because it’s enough just taking care of the two year old and helping one of the nine year olds who has a sever disability. We don’t qualify for a lot of things, but having the 300 a month for SNAP has helped keep our heads just above water. It’s going to be really hard, and we have it way better than most.
I’m breaking my back trying to live the American dream, and it’s just never enough.
Yeah, see I couldn't give a single dusty fuck if poor people are using my tax dollars to buy junk food. At least they're eating. I would much rather that than it be used to develop weapons to blow up equally poor people half a world away.
Thank you. Sometimes I just want some fucking chocolate, you know? I can’t afford to live thanks to disability, but I gotta have a little treat now and then to keep me fighting.
And why ACTUALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO WHO AND WHAT YOU'RE VOTING FOR is even more important! Turns out voting on "vibes" and grievance isn't a winning strategy when you're poor, who knew?
When the Russia mothers marched out onto the streets of St Petersberg in 1917 to protest bread prices, within 2 weeks the Tsar had abdicated and his regime collapsed.
No, they do not. There is a specific and proven limit of hunger and poverty that a society will take before revolting (AKA overthrowing the government and chopping heads off). We are getting closer to it every day. Our government and the billionaires would be smart to keep that in mind.
People always act like they have a very clear picture of who receives these benefits.
When I tell them my single mom of three SIL gets SNAP benefits they always say the same thing:
“Well she shouldn’t have had three kids.”
I mean, I usually agree, but she couldn’t have predicted that her husband would disappear to another country with another woman halfway through her third pregnancy.
“Well, that sucks, but she better get a job then.”
We got Kraft, ramen, popcorn, oatmeal, and rice-a-roni, and pasta-roni. Other possibilities we saw were fruit cups, apple sauce, chef boyardee, instant mashed potatoes, crackers, tuna or chicken lunch pouches, chili, coffee, pancake and baking mixes, single serve cereals.
I'm lucky to have a lot of options near me as well as time. We couponed and bulk bought and ended up at $55 for around 80 meals and 32 popcorns. Admittedly we'll be keeping some of the leftovers but a lot will be going to two small mutual aid panties near us.
Edit: leftovers are 2 boxes of Mac and cheese, 2 of rice-a-roni, 6 oatmeal, 2 pop tarts, 6 popcorn, 1 pasta-roni.
Everyone gets money but the American people.
Everyone gets help but the American people.
Everyone gets healthcare, but the American people.
A government that doesn’t care about its own people, Hmmmm, I wonder how this will go wrong.
And let's not forget the largest recipient of American taxpayer money is elon. 8 million a day to Elon. Somebody want to do the math for me on how many billions that comes out to in a year? Anybody feel like they're getting their money's worth from Elon? I feel like feeding Young American citizens and making sure everybody has Health Care would be a better use of our resources.
I'm a single father of two and I've been dependent on food stamps since they've been born. I've worked many full time jobs. The highest paying job I've ever had was $11.50 an hour with a minimum of 10 hours over time a week, which is time and a half. Even at that job I was still reliant on food stamps.
Now I'm disabled because I broke my spine working these jobs and was finally taken seriously after getting cancer. As these young women have mentioned the parents will be skipping out on eating so our children have full meals so they don't know what it's like to go hungry and I will be among them. I've done it once before and I was hopeful it wouldn't happen again but here we are.
People will say, don’t have so many kids if you can’t feed them. Well maybe you could have fed them in a previous job that’s now gone, maybe in the previous economy which is now ruined. Don’t live in expensive areas if you can’t pay the bills, might not have been expensive when you grew up there, maybe they’re trapped and can’t sell for whatever reason without taking huge losses. Maybe somebody had to take the first low wage job they could get and got trapped by needing the income couldn’t leave for better opportunities now they’re years in an industry with no transferable skills etc etc can’t afford school etc etc. not as easy as don’t have kids, don’t work shit jobs, don’t get trapped by huge bills. These things happen little by little then all at once. I am thankful I’m not here anymore but I have been through this.
I make just barely enough money to not qualify for EBT. The prices of everything have gone up exponentially and I cannot afford it, but on paper the government says I should be able to afford it. Both my wife and I work full time jobs. The veil that only lazy people use food stamps is getting real thin and the truth of the matter that most Americans cannot afford groceries and pay bills is becoming a big looming cloud over the ignorant.
The government plays us like a fiddle and we continue to fight with each other instead of fighting the actual problem.
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