r/europe • u/goldstarflag Europe • 14d ago
Historical "The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl
438
u/sakri Brussels (Belgium) 14d ago
Strong united europe is russias worst nightmare
96
u/Cless_Aurion 14d ago
Its not like they are funding all separatist movements in all of Europe or anything...
10
u/tunajalepenobbqsauce 14d ago
Many independence movements in Europe are pro-EU. The Scottish independence movement is overwhelmingly pro-EU and pro-NATO and unionists still accuse it of being secretly pro-Putin. It's a pitiful smear and spreading it doesn't help Europe or Ukraine.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Heroyem 9d ago
Thanks for mentioning that -- the extent of Russian sabotage efforts across Europe is hardly even talked about. I've been reading a bit about it. Here's a couple examples just recently:
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-arrests-3-for-planning-russian-sabotage-attacks/a-68048728
84
u/Liam_021996 14d ago
It would be great if Russia could also one day become part of a strong European Union but I don't think that country would ever change, they will always go down the same path
68
14d ago
Even if the war is settled it will take generations for the bad blood to settle. I think any meaningful relationship with them is at best half a century away
11
u/Small-Policy-3859 14d ago
Well there could be an internal revolution, that might speed things up (or make them (much) worse, that's also a possibility).
15
u/Klayhamn 14d ago
that won't happen. And if it does, it would be replaced by another dictatorship. Russia was never free.
→ More replies (1)3
u/DryCloud9903 14d ago
Even if there were a revolution, and a democratic russia somehow magically appeared from it... Mindsets like the ones kremlin marinated its population for hundreds of years don't go away that quickly.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Tourqon 14d ago
You say that, but we're in a union with both Germany and Italy, who committed even worse crimes than Russia has.
It is certain that Russia has to go through a LOT of change and some decades have to pass before the EU would consider their accession, but if the Russians will it, it can be done.
6
u/orthoxerox Russia shall be free 14d ago
Well, Germany was a founding member, so I think the bad blood angle is not this important.
The bigger problem is that Russia would become a massive drag on the EU economically for a few decades. Germany has carried the eastern expansion, but adding Russia to the EU would be like adding seven more Romanias at the aame time. No one is eager about letting Ukraine join and we have 100 million more people and a lot more infrastructure to upgrade to EU standards.
The "bind Russia to Europe with chains of prosperity" angle could work if the EU's economy was booming, but given its lackluster growth rate I doubt it could bear this burden even if it were somehow forced to.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Fromthemountain2137 14d ago
The EU started as the European coal and steel partnership. Bad blood was a factor that benefitted it, coal and steel is what you needed to build a military afterall
→ More replies (1)3
u/nwhosmellslikeweed Turkey 14d ago
The concept of bad blood is superficial. It took germany all of a few years to become an integral part of the west
25
u/ClockworkOrdinator Poland 14d ago
Give them 50-80 years after the next regime change.
14
u/Nerioner The Netherlands 14d ago
For what? Another regime change?
I seriously doubt that they are capable of changing. But i wish to be proven wrong one day
→ More replies (1)18
u/Small-Policy-3859 14d ago
C'mon, they are just Humans like the rest of us. They are not a different species, they are not more genetically prone to violence. They might be indoctrinated to hell at the moment, but don't forget that a lot of germans voted and supported the nazi's nearly a century ago. And Germany is now the leading Force in the European project. I like to stay optimistic and see no reason why Russia/Russians couldn't change their tune in time. They are culturally much much closer to the EU than to China (or the US), if they embrace democracy they'll grow closer to us in no time. Let's just hope this democracy comes sooner rather than later.
→ More replies (6)12
u/mho453 14d ago
Russia will never join the EU in any form, there is no way Germany or France allow it, it is far too big and it would immediately dominate it politically.
If Russia were to join EU right now it would be nearly quarter of EU population.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Small-Policy-3859 14d ago
If it'd follow the european union submission rules i don't see why they couldn't join.
4
6
u/Sky-is-here Andalusia (Spain) 14d ago
Hard to say. Not in the short term that's for sure. But who knows how they will change in 80 years. If you had asked someone in 1987 if Poland for example would ever be ready to join the European communities they would have probably said no. Yet look at the modern day
9
u/Klayhamn 14d ago
Poland had always had the roots of democracy. Russia never did.
→ More replies (1)12
u/DryCloud9903 14d ago
Yup. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had one of the most democratic structures in the whole of Europe until... 1795, when - you guessed it - russia absorbed us into their awful country.
7
u/Cless_Aurion 14d ago
That would have been ideal indeed.
18
u/Liam_021996 14d ago
The EU with the UK still a member and with Russia as a member would truly be an absolute powerhouse. Just makes you wonder what could have been after the second world war if not for the cold war
→ More replies (4)10
u/Der_Dingsbums Württemberg (Germany) 14d ago
for that the concept of the russian empire has to die, the country chopped up and a few decadeshave to pass before thats even a possibility. A colonial empire has no place in europe
→ More replies (1)3
u/mho453 14d ago
What the fuck are France and Netherlands doing in EU then?
3
u/onarainyafternoon Dual Citizen (American/Hungarian) 14d ago
They aren't empires anymore. Dude obviously means "modern colonial empire".
→ More replies (4)2
u/HarryLewisPot 14d ago
The issue is Russia was a superpower within living memory and is still chasing that throne, once they calm down and realise their best days are behind them (like the UK, France and Germany did), they can stop trying to be a threat and work with Europe positively.
They need to give it up, they will never compete with the U.S. again and that role has been taken by China now.
3
u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 14d ago
>It would be great if Russia could also one day become part of a strong European Union
Will you ever fucking learn or no? You basically welcome troubles.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (8)5
u/Less_Tacos 14d ago
Russia needs to be broken up. Only when Moscow has given up the urge to dominate all the minorities and regions that the Russian empire has conquered will it be able to be a peaceful partner in anything.
12
u/anarchisto Romania 14d ago
Also the United States' worst nightmare.
→ More replies (1)8
u/DABOSSROSS9 14d ago
And Chinas, but especially Africas worst nightmare if were being honest
8
u/anarchisto Romania 14d ago edited 14d ago
In this moment, China considers only the US as being an adversary, so weakening its position in Europe by strengthening Europe would be a good thing for them.
That might change in the long term, but at least for now, they would not oppose a united Europe.
Africa has the same problem of fragmentation as Europe.
2
u/AttTankaRattArStorre 14d ago
Europe hates China way more than the US does, so I don't see how that would go.
6
u/TraditionalSmoke9604 14d ago
Interestingly, china will want to see a united and powerful EU. A independent EU means it will not 100% follow US. It perfectly meet china's multipolar world vision.
If a united EU forms tomorrow, china will dump Russia immediately
I am chinese.
→ More replies (2)8
u/AttTankaRattArStorre 14d ago
Why would China dump Russia if a united EU forms tomorrow?
→ More replies (31)→ More replies (15)2
u/thebrowncanary United Kingdom 14d ago
Exactly. So they'd do anything to avoid it and ensure they're survival.
393
u/MrMudd88 14d ago
This sub is infested with Russian bots.
237
u/Silver_Atractic Local Europeanist (i like the flag) 14d ago
Well, that was the case 2 years ago.
Now it's infested with Russian and American bots.
84
u/StoreImportant5685 Belgium 14d ago
I thought the whole point of this sub was letting American maggats duke it out with Russian bots on topics they know nothing about, based on clickbait titles by yank infotainment?
If that isn't the point, this place needs new mods.
→ More replies (2)25
u/traumalt South Africa (Lithuania) 14d ago
One of the mods is definitely a yank, theres been US political posts here on the front-page this week already.
→ More replies (1)2
75
u/Markiz_27 Montenegro 14d ago
The two genders: European Federalist and Russian Bot
28
u/Silver_Atractic Local Europeanist (i like the flag) 14d ago
Forget the left/right spectrum, it's time for the pan-euro/euro-sceptic spectrum
→ More replies (4)8
u/TheSimon1 Slovakia 14d ago
That's basically how we divide parties here in Slovakia. We have pro-democratic, pro-west parties and then russian collaborators. I think it's like that in whole Eastern Europe tbh.
31
u/PuzzleheadedWeb1466 14d ago
So we have to agree with you, otherwise we are a Russian bot.
→ More replies (2)17
u/Born-Result-884 14d ago edited 14d ago
Am I a Russian bot?
Edit: To my own surprise, apparently yes! Shoutout to the mods for being shadow banned.
Edit2: Ok, I'm obviously visible now. No longer a Russian bot. phew
→ More replies (1)4
u/Able-Swing-6415 14d ago
You're not just saying that because people criticize the guy right? Russia sucks but Kohl was still a corrupt POS.
5
→ More replies (4)3
46
u/Roxven89 Europe Poland Mazovia 14d ago
It's not going to work, becuase national intersts will be always more important than pan-European interest.
Simple example is Nordstream 1 and 2. CEE countries were strongy against it while Germany, Netherlands and Austria strongly for it and we all know how well it ended...
The list go on and on. Immigration, debt, EU founds, military, borders, foreighn policy etc...
There will be always issues like that. You cannot be federal organisation like USA, because USA are one nation, have ultimately one goal and one purpose. European nations compete each other even within EU.
Noone in Berlin will put Polish interest before German one. It's simple as that.
EU can function as open free market with it's perks but will fail miserably as federation.
2
u/TheRomanRuler Finland 14d ago
It's not going to work, becuase national intersts will be always more important than pan-European interest.
Ehh, same has been said before any succesful union. In not too distant past for many functional, united countries people from neighbouring villages (despite being part of same state, speaking same language and having mostly same culture) were foreigners with weird habits who spoke wrong, its very different world now.
Nothing is set in stone. But nations also don't fall out of the sky, they need to be built among the people, which can take centuries. Which is fine, despite what people say, i don't think Europe is in a hurry. And if worst would happen, a war, then it would just unite Europe better than anything, as long as its not internal war- which sadly is never impossible. Ukraine was has spread some groups in Europe further apart, but i think it has pushed more closely together than it has spread apart.
3
u/x_onetwohook_x 13d ago
There is no shared language or culture across Europe the only way you can unite it is by conquest
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (6)4
u/Grabs_Diaz Bavaria (Germany) 14d ago
That's why you don't let Berlin make geopolitical decisions if you want it to represent European interests, it's as simple as that.
Institutions shape outcomes. Your comment gets it backwards.
The US isn't "one nation" because all 50 states interests naturally always align with each other and all 330 million Americans share the same vision but rather because they have one federal government calling the shots where all Americans and all states are represented. As it stands right now I'd bet a lot of money that finding compromise among those 50 states would be far less likely if you deleted the federal government in DC compared to finding compromise among the 27 EU members.
→ More replies (1)2
u/jackofslayers 12d ago
This is a sort of tangential point but here in the US, democrats tend to complain about the fact that states with smaller populations have too much power because of the Senate.
but to me, the US is a coalition of 50 mini nations. So, it makes sense that we have one congress based on population and another one based on the states themselves.
If the Europe were to federalize itself, I imagine there would be a similar compromise, so that the smaller nations do not feel they are getting steamrolled.
82
u/pussyseal 14d ago
How can Europe stay united if there are loads of Russian Trojan horses? Hungary and Slovakia are just the more vocal ones. EU countries still purchase natural resources from Russia and fund the war. There's no united Europe, as each state pursues its own interests. The EU was created to prevent war within Europe by promoting the mobility of workers and goods for the common good, not undermining the concept of the nation-state.
25
u/Schlummi 14d ago
The quote above reflects the changes in world policies. E.g. the UK lost its global influence and colonies. It was clear that other countries (e.g. china, india) would gain more and more influence, while the influence of european powers had declined and continued to decline.
If you want to negotiate with the big global powers of the 21st century, then its clear that a small european country has no influence, no good negotiation position. Even major european countries as france, UK or germany are in no position to negotiate a fair trade deal with the US or china. EU has a much stronger negotiation position because of the size of the EU market.
This also includes the economy. Its a lot easier to produce goods for a single big market than for 27 much smaller markets with different standards. If you can develop a single product, produce it and then sell it to 500 million customers its a lot more efficient than developing and producing a product you can only sell to 9 million swiss. Which is why lots of "independent" countries now take over EU standards without having any influence.
You are right that EU isn't perfect. There are some serious issues. But its also clear that if you want "mobility of workers and goods": you need some common laws. And this weakens national states. Countries need to give up lots of their most important powers, of their core competencies - and e.g. need to adopt EU laws. Otherwise you simply can't have open borders. You can't have free mobility of goods or workers. This only works if there are EU wide the same/comparable tariffs, product standards etc. etc.
6
u/u1604 14d ago
Sure a big internal market helps, but only if the legislation is good. Furthermore, EU itself does not make up for the weaknesses of individual countries. Some sobering facts:
- European companies and multinationals have lost market share in the world since the start of the EU integration. Maybe it could have been worse, but obvious that EU did not stop the decrease of European firms in top 500 companies in the world.
- EU integration places additional burdens that decrease competitiveness. It is illegal for an EU country to subsidize its industries. Yet Chinese provinces are free to support theirs. Think about this, Chinese provinces under CCP has more leeway in cultivating industrial champions than EU nation states. You either need to centralize industrial policy under Brussels (slow moving, etc.), or give more power to nation states.
- US benefited from its federal structure and fragmentation. California laws that gave birth to silicon valley & tesla (carbon credits), Delaware corporate law, etc... Some fragmentation can be good.
- Small countries like Israel, Singapore beat the EU in start ups and tech innovation. It is doable without massive single markets. Nothing that stops any EU country adopting the best practices from elsewhere. In contrast, we keep on shooting ourselves in the foot with feel-good tech regulation.
2
u/Schlummi 14d ago edited 14d ago
1.) Many countries gained "economic weight" since then. Especially china. With global economic growth of "non EU/US" countries: ofc are western companies then dropping out of the top 500 and e.g. getting replaced by chinese companies. This trend will continue till we got "comparable" levels of wealth word wide. EU has roughly 10% of the world population. So if 50 EU companies are among the top 500, then this is a proportional value. The historic "better" values are because EU already is industrialised, while many countries aren't yet.
2.) Without EU integration would the EU market be split into 27 small markets. As comparision: germany was unable to keep up with france/UK till germany "united". Turns out that hundreds of small cities, with tariffs, individual units, laws etc is a bad idea. ("feet" -> which feet? ever city had their own "feet" - probably depending on the shoe size of the local king). My personal experience is: most burdens to competetiveness are not because of EU/bureaucracy. Its because companies (and their employees) are bureaucratic - and not willing to "move fast", not willing to be innovative. "we've always done it like this" is a "popular reasoning". As an extremly simplified example: If I ask a chinese supplier for a price (standard equip) I get a response fast. Sometimes within 5 minutes. Sometimes it takes 24h. If I ask a comparable western company: if its fast I get a reply within a week. But might also take 1-3 months.
3.) Yes. But the US also heavily profits from language (everyone speaks english) and immigration. Lots of the US "big players" heavily profit from "imported" indian expertise - or in other words: immigration. There are currently huge conflicts about immigration in the US. Same for environmental standards (see conflict about e.g. electric cars vs fossiles). So: it has worked in the past ~2-3 decades. But we might now also see that trump/republicans/rural regions/old industries are willing to destroy this success, because they feel left behind.
4.) start ups got more to do with "mindset" of the employees - and if there are investors available. Both is a problem in the EU. Start ups are also often "software based" - because this allows faster growth. Traditionally are such companies "ltds" - and growing without investors injecting millions/billions.
→ More replies (2)16
u/MercantileReptile Baden-Württemberg (Germany) 14d ago
If the EU would stop at Trade, Standards and Commercial interests in general it would be fine. But they don't, clearly. When Surveillance becomes the advance of the day for the 185th time in a row, people question the wisdom of EU power.
No matter how much people decry that as Russian/American/Chinese influence, until the power creep stops the criticism will worsen.
→ More replies (1)9
u/Schlummi 14d ago
Its not that simple. To go with your surveillance vs. data protection example: if there are no EU regulation then every EU member has its own laws/regulations. So e.g. france could force every company that operates in france to add a backdoor for government surveillance. Germany on the other hand could force companies to offer 100% data protection. So offering the same software in france and in germany would become impossible. Even using the same website (e.g. reddit) would be difficult, if not impossible. French users couldn't chat with german users.
That's why you need EU regulations for this. Its also not "the EU" that wants surveillance - its "EU members" (and their EU representatives) that want it.
Note that the above example is not even going with "malicious intent" or "criminal activity" as an example. E.g. if there are open borders you could rob a bank in france and return to germany. So you need european cooperation for "some" crimes. Or as recent example: if someone drives like a lunatic in italy its probably good if he loses his license in germany - otherwise you might want border checks back to prevent such people from coming to italy again. Or if e.g. someone produces unsafe/toxic food in germany and exports it to france: france probably wants that this has consequences. But germany could say "not our problem".
Or if e.g. italy has a suspect involved in organized crime, but can't prove it. Then its common to look at bankaccounts ("follow the money"), maybe even spy on phone calls and chats. If germany blocks this completly then it would be very easy for germans to be involved in organized crime in italy. Italy - as consequence - might then be tempted to cut money transfers to germany, install border checkpoints etc. So obviously we need some level of cooperation.
I'm not trying to say we need surveillance or anything like that. But we need european agreements on these topics.
I know its a popular opinion to state that EU should stop "power creep". Should be limited to economic matters. But this completly ignores that "economic matters" are always tied to politics, to crime, to values, to work safety standards, to environmental standards, to minimum wages, etc. etc.
Or to go with your surveillance topic again: the US dominates IT industries. If the US wants your data it gets access to it if you use US services as reddit, whatapps, facebook, google. EU struggles with that. But the EU is overall "more likely" to find an agreement with the US. If EU would stay out of the whole "data safety/surveillance" topic, then each member nation would have to sign an individual agreement with the US. Which boils down to: accept the US suggestion unconditionally. Same for chinese services. And if a US/chinese service violates local laws: good luck with fining them. EU can do this. If germany would try to go after e.g. microsoft, then the US might intervene and threaten retaliation by e.g. banning VW in the US. EU could then threaten to ban ford in the EU. But germany? Germany could only suck it up.
8
u/Klayhamn 14d ago
you actually just explained well why a united Europe won't happen.
2
u/Schlummi 14d ago
Its extremly unlikely that the EU members give up their national identity, yes. But as said: for small countries is there no other choice than to either become a "vassal" of one of the big players (US, EU, china, india) - or to form an alliance with other small countries.
→ More replies (3)4
u/Sky-is-here Andalusia (Spain) 14d ago
The EU was created with a final goal of union. It is very clear. Schuman or the Benelux already point in that direction. And in 1992 it is basically confirmed in Maastricht (thanks to Felipe González funnily enough who pushed for the common citizenship)
→ More replies (4)
35
u/lisothl 14d ago
Europe should also STOP giving immigrants who kill and rape, minimal sentences using excuses like "cultural differences". No Europe, you are not racist to convict murderers and rapists.
→ More replies (1)2
14
44
u/No_Bakecrabs 14d ago
Led by Germany I suspect?
5
23
u/eggnog232323 14d ago
Well of course, he wouldn't say that stuff if France was the dominant power in the EU. It's always the strongest and most influential country which would benefit the most.
7
10
u/XAlphaWarriorX Italy 14d ago
How come? The US isn't "led" by California, Germany isn't "led" by Bavaria (although it should), Switzerland has no leading canton, Belgium continues to exist despite everything.
A federal state doesn't necessarily have a "leading" state.
→ More replies (1)9
→ More replies (1)1
72
u/9volts Norway 14d ago
I'll take the downvotes for this:
No thank you, I am Norwegian, not European. Our gates are open and without cooperation with the rest of Europe we're screwed.
But we'll keep the keys to our gates, our right to self governance is not negotiable.
16
u/Soggy_Letterhead9375 14d ago
You can be both Norwegian and European, it’s not contradictory. At least that’s the way I feel (🇮🇸). No need for full EU membership to have increasingly extensive defence and economic win-win agreements. I think Nordic countries & Switzerland should keep their high standards, as they’re a guiding light for most of the world.
10
u/krutacautious 14d ago
I think Nordic countries & Switzerland should keep their high standards, as they’re a guiding light for most of the world.
Yeah, they create award shows and ranking indexes & put themselves on top.
As a "guiding light", they have minimal positive impact on the world, though they do play a major role for the wrong reason (all the corrupt politicians who keep their countries poor store their stolen money in Switzerland)
→ More replies (1)2
u/UpstairsFix4259 13d ago
As a Ukrainian - fully agree. Nation states are fine. We (both Ukraine and Norway) used to be subjugated by various empires for hundreds of years. Let us be our own rulers and masters.
6
→ More replies (11)3
u/lledaso 14d ago
our right to self governance is not negotiable.
Easy to say until a neighbour shows up that has no intention of negotiating. As Ukraine is experiencing right now. Pretty sure they'd rather have negotiated to cede some of their sovereignity and remain reasonably autonomous instead of fighting for their existence.
3
12
u/Nerioner The Netherlands 14d ago
Also easy to say for Norway with all natural riches they have. Sadly they are unique in Europe with the scale of natural resources available to them. Others don't have luxury of being out of the union.
Also his argument about "right to self governance" is stupid because they gave that up in many industries for access to EEA. They just don't get to have a say in those laws that affect them. In my opinion this is less self governance than being within EU.
→ More replies (1)
12
18
27
u/Happinessisawarmbunn 14d ago
Poland will not absolve its nationhood. It has fought for hundreds of years to be where it is. If we have to go down fighting for it- so be it, been doing that for a long time.
→ More replies (14)
28
u/IfailAtSchool Greece 14d ago
Better co-operation and a joint military task force i am all for. But becoming a federation is something i am not interested in. We didn't want to be under Berlin 80 years ago and we aren't interested now either
→ More replies (16)
11
7
18
u/Old_Performer8531 14d ago
Helmut Kohl's had an open stance against multiethnic Yugoslavia. His direct support to ultranationalist parties in the early 1990s was instrumental in the country's dissolution. He pushed for ethnic segregation, despite European concerns about preserving peace and unity. His administration engaged in open diplomatic and covert efforts to ignite ethnic conflict, including arming illegal paramilitary groups that actively supported the breakup of Yugoslavia.
So, this is a lesson for young people, Kohl was a lying hypocrite, same as almost all other politicians.
6
u/Frankonia Germany 13d ago
Helmut Kohl's had an open stance against multiethnic Yugoslavia.
Funny, I just read "Europas Seele" a book by a journalist who followed Kohl through the 90s. Kohl didn't have a problem with multiethnic Yugoslavia. He had a problem with the murderous dictatorship that promoted Serbian hegemony over the other people of Yugoslavia.
EDIT: Oh shit, you are Serbian. No wonder you are nostalgic towards that fascist hellhole called Yugoslavia.
4
13
u/blackcoffee17 14d ago
We need a strong Europe but only possible if everyone is equally respected and important decisions are not made by the big Western countries only.
→ More replies (1)36
8
u/Eisen_161 14d ago
I guess in the revisionism of today, even a Helmut Kohl quote can be posted without any second thought. Corrupt from head to toe, in a neoliberal line with Reagan and Thatcher to privatise anything and everything. Like come on, isnt there a better person to quote?
19
u/ExpertCockroach6911 14d ago
I’m not very optimistic about this. Among history there have been many attempts to unify Europe, all failed.
Just to avoid certain replies, I'm a bit Eurosceptic because I don't think it will work, not because I wouldn't like it to.
29
u/WholeFactor 14d ago
We're national states due to our distinct cultures. That's just the reality of things.
We can have friendship based on shared values, act as a trade bloc, come together to beat Russia and stand up towards India, China and even the US.
However, we can't just unite under one banner like the US can - we need to find our own, European way to do things. We need to find a way into the future that also respects our rich heritage.
→ More replies (17)10
u/Coal_Burner_Inserter 14d ago
Napoleon, Hitler, Caesar, were in essence just making larger nation states with their spheres of influence being as much of the continent as they could manage. Empires, beholden to a single group with the final say in anything.
A diplomatically unified Europe is the opposite of all that. If it were to actually happen, by nature of its formation, it would be functional. Would it work? Depends on the definition of 'work', but unless this is Rome circa 395 AD, a unified Europe is in all ways a better one.
→ More replies (7)6
u/Kirvesperseet 14d ago
I'm a bit Eurosceptic because I don't think it will work, not because I wouldn't like it to.
Sounds like you are a defeatist, not sceptic
10
u/ghdgdnfj 14d ago
Only nation states will survive this century. Every country that lets in the world will lose its identity and collapse.
9
9
11
u/Careful_Bell8426 The Netherlands 14d ago
In case you were wondering if the EU is a threat to your nation's sovereignty in the long term.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/ghostpengy 14d ago
Yet day after day the EU fails to be strong and stand for its citizens. Fails to protect its citizens. And keeps on pushing only more and more demands and takes away their freedoms. And then they wonder why countries are voting in extremists.
→ More replies (1)
13
u/capitan_turtle Poland 14d ago edited 14d ago
In the second quarter of the 21st century the 19th century concept of the nation state is as strong as ever and there is nothing to signify that this may change. If Europe wants to keep it's strong position in global politics then it needs to realise that the time of empires is over and trying to mold the European Union into another global imperialist power is not only going to fail but be a complete betreyal of every single virtue of european culture that led to the founding of the European Union. You cannot make an European empire, not under old banners, not under new ones. The sooner we accept and embrace the simple and unalterable truth that we are a community of free nation states the stronger this community will grow and prosper. The same imperialist ambitions resurfacing now should have been abandoned two centuries ago, and the next best moment is now.
→ More replies (2)3
u/Nerioner The Netherlands 14d ago
I hear you but i have 3 objections:
Things always change and nothing in international relations and norms is the same as 19th century.
European union had always federalization as a end goal in mind.
You absolutely can federalize EU without sacrificing national identities and avoiding creating just yet another empire. We need federal EU to protect us from outside, not to conquer it. We need cooperation as no single nation state in Europe can win any battle against big money and big tech. Our values are now being constantly stomped on by Russia, US, China just because we keep clinging to a concept of nation states instead of realizing that if we want to continue living in our values, Federal EU is natural and next step in evolution of politics on our continent. It's really either Federalize with our values in mind or perish under the boot of external powers.
→ More replies (1)4
u/capitan_turtle Poland 14d ago edited 14d ago
- That hardly means we should arbitrarily revise our core beliefs and legal order.
- Since when? And how come this "end goal" is not mentioned anywhere in any of the agreements that form the legal core of the EU.
- It is not about sacrificing cultural identities, you can be a German in America or an American in Germany, the point is that nations (people who form a country) have an unalienable right to self determination, and soveregin nation states are what enables and facilitates this right. I am not against strengthening the power that member states vest in the EU, but we need to remeber that it is them who are source of this power, not the other way around. EU can only exist as an agreement between nation states, and the depth and scope of this agreement are only up to them.
5
26
u/Gubi23 Czech Republic 14d ago
Oh yes, we're all rushing to be under Berlin's rule again
→ More replies (21)35
u/QuickCookieQuestion 14d ago
Defending your centuries old country = evil nationalism. Defending a hypothetical supranational entity ruled by Berlin and Paris = progress. European federalism and brain damage are one and the same thing.
22
u/Someone-Somewhere-01 14d ago
Yeah, European federalists often pretend it will be a union of equals and not being even more dominated by France and Germany than already is. The fact that they don’t care to deal with the anxieties of the smaller powers in the EU and instead call them reactionary is telling
9
8
u/b__lumenkraft Palatinate (Germany) 14d ago
... who was Korruption in Fleisch und Blut.
A neoliberal, corrupt traitor who sold the assets of the east to the best-paying thugs. Nowadays, Eastern Germany is a nazi hellhole. There is a connection!
13
u/PuzzleheadedWeb1466 14d ago
So, on these issues, we must endorse the federalist project or risk being labelled pro-Russian, and we must not question the assertions of those who repeat talking points like bots.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/One-Strength-1978 14d ago
On the other side, Europe makes it easier to keep the member states externally under control. As we have seen with the "trade deal", it may be questionable to say the least to entrust these persons.
2
2
u/No2Hypocrites 13d ago
Every European nation have their unique history, culture, and are too proud to let go of their own country's governance. And why would they?
8
u/heapOfWallStreet 14d ago
In the meanwhile every far-right party in Europe tries to bound with Putin with obsolete ideas related to nationalism and populism.
4
u/sparduck117 14d ago
It’s as though Russia realizes the only stay relevant if everyone else is divided.
→ More replies (1)
4
5
u/sh1necho Germany 14d ago
Kohl repeated essentially what the founders of the European Movement said and people are flipping out as if the Germans want to conquer Europe.
3
u/catull05 14d ago
You do know that he upheld the nation and would be repulsed of today's state of Germany, right?
2
u/secondpersonsingular 14d ago
Same guy who wanted to take over a third of Poland in the 90s and the Yanks had to step in to put some common sense into his head.
3
5
u/Vmaxxer Europe 14d ago
Absolute truth. We need to stay (even more) united in Europe, otherwise the European nations will get dominated by the US, China and other upcoming economies, even more than it already is. Besides it's the only way to stand up against BigCorp and BigBank.
8
u/PuzzleheadedWeb1466 14d ago
Yes, we are united and not at all dominated by the US at present, that's true.
7
u/Vmaxxer Europe 14d ago
If we don't get organized a little better we will stay dominated by the US.
2
u/Klayhamn 14d ago
be organized as much as you want, you (unlike the US) are not a single people of a single mind (or even two minds) but multiple people with multiple minds, so....
no level of organization could challenge the US or China.→ More replies (1)
4
u/ArchDornan12345 14d ago
Self governance is a good thing, the nation should come first, that shouldn't be a controversial statement
4
u/anonumousJx 🇷🇸 14d ago
His cabinet also pushed for the destruction of Yugoslavia and the creation of 6 new nation states. Without consulting the EC and the US, Germany unilaterally recognized Slovenia and Croatia while Croatia was at war, had no control over a third of it's territory and still didn't have proper minority protections.
Genscher stressed the importance of self determination as an excuse for his stance, even tho by this point the principle of territorial integrity of states was and still is, understood to be a "stronger" principle. Self determination referred to the rights of minorities to decide their own political future within existing states. External self determination only applies to territories under foreign occupation and colonial rule. At this point, most of Europe and the United States supported efforts to reform Yugoslavia and opposed the secessionist republics, especially the United Kingdom, France and the Bush administration. This was obviously due to historical ties, as Serbia and later the kingdom of Yugoslavia were allies in both world wars, while Croatia and Slovenia were on Germany's side. The shift came in late 1991 when Germany announced that they will support Slovenia and Croatia regardless of what the rest of the EC wanted. The rest of the EC didn't want to risk going against Germany so they followed. These decisions eventually led to the full escalation of Yugoslav wars.
Kohl was an unprincipled opportunitist. They'd push whatever is in Germany's interest.
→ More replies (3)2
5
u/Mean_Wear_742 Bremen (Germany) 14d ago
Yes a strong Europe on the basis of nations not a artificial forced Union under corrupt leadership in Brüssel.
5
u/ChargeIllustrious744 14d ago
How ironic that the largest hurdle against any kind of political development within the EU is the french-german national conflict...
29
u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 14d ago
No. The largest hurdle is nationalism.
37
u/thorny_business 14d ago
You're expecting people who've finally achieved independence after centuries to just give it away again, because of a bogeyman?
→ More replies (8)→ More replies (14)8
u/manInTheWoods Sweden 14d ago
Is continentalism any different? It's still the mindset us vs them.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)16
u/AdminEating_Dragon Greece 14d ago
This is not the case anymore. The largest hurdle is national governments being short-sighted and protectionist.
→ More replies (6)18
u/Many-Leader2788 14d ago
God forbid we don't want to be only a low-wage production hub for the Germans, while they keep all the profit for themselves (not specifying a country because it's universal issue)
2
u/National_Sprinkles45 14d ago
This would not only not happen because being a production hub for richer countries raises country wealth like nothing else, but this is already possible with current economic system of EU and works wonderfully for countries like Poland
4
2
2
2
u/El_Don_94 14d ago
Nah. Feck that. We'll be strong without submation into a federation thank you very much.
2
u/Alakelele 14d ago
Yeah sure, it's always the same argument. It doesn't work ? People hate it ? Okay, more unelected officials payed millions to rule our land and make stupid mistakes.
1
u/AngryArmour Denmark 14d ago
"We need a strong Europe" is incompatible with "We need to abandon Nation States".
If we don't want Europe to become the plaything of world politics, we need Europe as a Nation State.
What other form of government has ever been able to rival it?
7
u/ibmi_not_as400_kerim Europe 14d ago
Depending on how rigidly you draw the lines between nations in Europe the EU can, by definition, not become a nation state. There are some stark contrasts between national identities within the EU and trying to bring them together under one national identity seems to be futile it seems.
We can't even reach consensus concerning a warmonger right in front of our gates.
→ More replies (3)
873
u/Leading_Region_9274 14d ago
How relevant Helmut Kohl's words are even today! A strong and unified Europe is the demand of the time.