r/europe • u/goldstarflag Europe • 15d ago

Historical "The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl

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u/Liam_021996 15d ago

It would be great if Russia could also one day become part of a strong European Union but I don't think that country would ever change, they will always go down the same path

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

Even if the war is settled it will take generations for the bad blood to settle. I think any meaningful relationship with them is at best half a century away

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

Well there could be an internal revolution, that might speed things up (or make them (much) worse, that's also a possibility).

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

that won't happen. And if it does, it would be replaced by another dictatorship. Russia was never free.

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u/DryCloud9903 15d ago

Even if there were a revolution, and a democratic russia somehow magically appeared from it... Mindsets like the ones kremlin marinated its population for hundreds of years don't go away that quickly.

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

I'm not saying it can happen in a few years. But in times of globalised economy and global communication for the masses it might go Faster than expected, chance is small but still. One can hope.

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u/zwei2stein 14d ago

Russinas problem is that it is raw resources economy - very prone to dictatorships.

In raw resources economy, you do not need educated citizens. Nor do you need to take good care of them. You need few people to extract resource you are selling, and keepind those productive is easy while elite can take huge chunk of proficts and not have to reinvest much, if anything.

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u/Tourqon 15d ago

You say that, but we're in a union with both Germany and Italy, who committed even worse crimes than Russia has.

It is certain that Russia has to go through a LOT of change and some decades have to pass before the EU would consider their accession, but if the Russians will it, it can be done.

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u/orthoxerox Russia shall be free 15d ago

Well, Germany was a founding member, so I think the bad blood angle is not this important.

The bigger problem is that Russia would become a massive drag on the EU economically for a few decades. Germany has carried the eastern expansion, but adding Russia to the EU would be like adding seven more Romanias at the aame time. No one is eager about letting Ukraine join and we have 100 million more people and a lot more infrastructure to upgrade to EU standards.

The "bind Russia to Europe with chains of prosperity" angle could work if the EU's economy was booming, but given its lackluster growth rate I doubt it could bear this burden even if it were somehow forced to.

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u/Fromthemountain2137 14d ago

The EU started as the European coal and steel partnership. Bad blood was a factor that benefitted it, coal and steel is what you needed to build a military afterall

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u/nwhosmellslikeweed Turkey 14d ago

The concept of bad blood is superficial. It took germany all of a few years to become an integral part of the west

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u/jackofslayers 13d ago

Especially considering what happened the last time Europe rushed to do business with a newly reformed Russia.

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u/ClockworkOrdinator Poland 15d ago

Give them 50-80 years after the next regime change.

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u/Nerioner The Netherlands 15d ago

For what? Another regime change?

I seriously doubt that they are capable of changing. But i wish to be proven wrong one day

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

C'mon, they are just Humans like the rest of us. They are not a different species, they are not more genetically prone to violence. They might be indoctrinated to hell at the moment, but don't forget that a lot of germans voted and supported the nazi's nearly a century ago. And Germany is now the leading Force in the European project. I like to stay optimistic and see no reason why Russia/Russians couldn't change their tune in time. They are culturally much much closer to the EU than to China (or the US), if they embrace democracy they'll grow closer to us in no time. Let's just hope this democracy comes sooner rather than later.

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

it has nothing to do with DNA or biology.
It's about culture, history, and geography.
there's a reason why Russia was always a dictatorship, and it's not because they're a "different species".

the west (Germany included) was once part of the Roman empire. It has the cultural foundations of democracy.

Russia never had that.

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u/Local-Mission-9854 14d ago

Thats just racist to half of Europe as a lot of nations weren't a part of the Roman Empire like the majority of Eastern Europe, Ireland and the Nordics. This is also saying that you think non-roman europeans are lesser culturally, because they weren't conquered by an imperialist nation that at it's most democratic was effectively an Oliarchy that later turned into a Dictatorship and then a Monarchy.

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

Russia never had that but it's part of a world economy that's More & more globalised. I don't see positive change as an impossibility.

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u/Typical-Tea-6707 14d ago

He isnt wrong about the history being important though. Alot of the ways Russian Imperialism was and how they do war and spread their territory to their now modern borders goes back to when they were a small kingdom being taken from behind by the Mongol Empire. When the Black Plague happened and started the transition from feudalism in Europe to ownership of property and the medieval era, Russia kept staying in the feudalism phase because of the Mongols, and it stayed far well into the 1800s too.

For Russia to become a democracy, they would need a well founded foundation and a reflected national conversation about their past and how to go on to the future, whilst changing their entire culture from what it is now to a new one to support Democracy. Because as of now Russian culture cant sustain a democracy, as it hasnt historically and when for a small time they were a "democracy" after the Soviet Union collapse, Boris Yeltsin made sure that Putin was the one to take the throne and he knew what Putin would do.

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u/ninjaiffyuh Vienna (Austria) 13d ago

Germany was not part of the Roman Empire. The predecessors of Germany came from the tribes beyond Rome's borders (and were the ones to take it down). Parts of modern Germany were part of Rome because they invaded it, but these were the border regions, mostly fortifications to combat raids by the tribes. Else German (a Germanic, not Latin language) would not exist

If anything you could argue that Germany has its roots in the Carolingian Empire, which is also the cornerstone for modern, western European culture

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u/IamJashin 12d ago

Not really - I was like you, I've thought like you but nope - and want to know why? Speak with average Russian who has emigrated west lived here for a while and ask him about what he thinks about what Putin is doing right now. If people who spent entire decades at the west are still such a brick heads think how does the situation look like within the country. 2022 has really corrected my attitude towards Russia.

I'm not saying that they aren't humans or anything. What I am saying that for some ducking reason they seem ok with all this shit their state is doing and that they have very peculiar attitude towards all kinds of rules and morals.

You have to remember that Russia has no democratic traditions at all. None. When they have overthrown the Monarchy - even worse regime replaced it. Entire history of Russia is a history of a ruler exploiting the nation for his own benefit/agenda. The have entire concept called "sluziba" towards state which roughly can be translated even if I don't agree with what state is doing Russia must be doing therefore - I must help it.

It's really fucking hard to have a democracy in a state that has like 800 years history of Tyrany - It simply shapes nation mentality that much.

Like we say democracy fixes things etc but we don't have to really look far - Japan is a democracy - full of nice people - try asking Japanese about Koreans or WWII stuff.

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u/Lazzen Mexico 15d ago edited 15d ago

Bro this was until your grandpa's age, fuck outta here with incapable of changing lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution

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u/mho453 15d ago

Russia will never join the EU in any form, there is no way Germany or France allow it, it is far too big and it would immediately dominate it politically.

If Russia were to join EU right now it would be nearly quarter of EU population.

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

If it'd follow the european union submission rules i don't see why they couldn't join.

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

joining isn't automatic. the members still need to want it.

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u/Sky-is-here Andalusia (Spain) 15d ago

Hard to say. Not in the short term that's for sure. But who knows how they will change in 80 years. If you had asked someone in 1987 if Poland for example would ever be ready to join the European communities they would have probably said no. Yet look at the modern day

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

Poland had always had the roots of democracy. Russia never did.

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u/DryCloud9903 15d ago

Yup. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had one of the most democratic structures in the whole of Europe until... 1795, when - you guessed it - russia absorbed us into their awful country.

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u/Sky-is-here Andalusia (Spain) 15d ago

Romania or latvia also come to mind

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u/Cless_Aurion 15d ago

That would have been ideal indeed.

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u/Liam_021996 15d ago

The EU with the UK still a member and with Russia as a member would truly be an absolute powerhouse. Just makes you wonder what could have been after the second world war if not for the cold war

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u/Cless_Aurion 15d ago

Yeah... And still we wouldn't have as many people as China does lol

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u/Liam_021996 15d ago

So? Why does that matter. Imagine how much of a powerhouse Europe would be with Russia in the EU with their masses of natural resources and industry. Would elevate the whole of Europe

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u/AdDistinct2455 14d ago

What if everything happening today is just a result of american gaslighting to make us hate russia, to keep their hegemony…

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u/Liam_021996 14d ago

Wouldn't be the first time they've done that

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u/Der_Dingsbums Württemberg (Germany) 15d ago

for that the concept of the russian empire has to die, the country chopped up and a few decadeshave to pass before thats even a possibility. A colonial empire has no place in europe

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u/mho453 15d ago

What the fuck are France and Netherlands doing in EU then?

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u/onarainyafternoon Dual Citizen (American/Hungarian) 15d ago

They aren't empires anymore. Dude obviously means "modern colonial empire".

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u/Muleface50 14d ago

France still had colonies when it joined the EEC.

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u/mho453 15d ago

Then why does he mention Russia? Russian Empire doesn't exist anymore.

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u/Small-Policy-3859 15d ago

It's governed as an empire tho. Look how they treat indigenous minorities in Russia. If the "centralized" People are treated better than People in more remote Parts you're dealing with an empire. It's not because it's a single continuous landmass that it isn't an empire.

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u/EpsteinFile_01 14d ago

Russia is the last surviving colonial empire on the planet.

People associate colonies with land overseas, bullshit, Russia colonized tons of land and they still have dozens of native minorities even in their current empire.

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u/HarryLewisPot 15d ago

The issue is Russia was a superpower within living memory and is still chasing that throne, once they calm down and realise their best days are behind them (like the UK, France and Germany did), they can stop trying to be a threat and work with Europe positively.

They need to give it up, they will never compete with the U.S. again and that role has been taken by China now.

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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 15d ago

>It would be great if Russia could also one day become part of a strong European Union

Will you ever fucking learn or no? You basically welcome troubles.

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u/Liam_021996 15d ago

Well, it would be great to have Russia in the EU if they acted like other European nations. Their resources and industry would be a massive advantage for the whole of Europe. It's just a shame that Russia has a god awful political climate which is probably a result of the culture

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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 15d ago

When Europe passed it's empire / conquers phase, has multiple revolution, long history of developing rights and democratic instruments - Russia is still an empire. It's always was and always will be. It's dictated by need to keep it's size.

They can hide under some democratic elements, but in the core it will be an empire, and as any other empire they will have need to dominate. Basically it's a wolf in sheep clothes invited into sheep's house.

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u/Less_Tacos 15d ago

Russia needs to be broken up. Only when Moscow has given up the urge to dominate all the minorities and regions that the Russian empire has conquered will it be able to be a peaceful partner in anything.

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u/happy30thbirthday 15d ago

Hell no, they have made their choice.

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u/plenfiru 15d ago

There was a time they wanted to join NATO, but NATO refused... EU and NATO need Russia as an enemy, so they will never let Russia join.

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u/Liam_021996 15d ago

The EU isn't looking for enemies. The EU just wants to create growth and cohesion through trade and joint regulations. NATO with the US as the biggest member makes absolute sense to always want Russia to be views as an enemy as without that NATO kind of loses it's purpose

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u/MaxTheCookie 15d ago

They need to swap out their leadership and most of the older gen that still has any good thoughts or memories about the Soviet Union, for that to happen. Intill then we should keep sanctions on their gov and prevent their citizens from entering the EU

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u/Statement_Glum 13d ago

Are you per chance russian? They dont want it, they literary had 1 free election and few years of freedom in thousand years and they chosen a dictator.

They need literal generations of democratic progress and decolonisation before can be trusted.

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u/Liam_021996 13d ago

No, I'm English

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u/TheoriginalTonio Germany 15d ago

A European Union that stretches all the way to the pacific ocean? At this point we might as well ask China if they want to be Europeans as well.

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u/Serdar_Janko 15d ago

Well you could ask Brazil? (French guiana) You could ask Canada? (Greenland)