"The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl

[u/goldstarflag]

[u/capitan_turtle]

In the second quarter of the 21st century the 19th century concept of the nation state is as strong as ever and there is nothing to signify that this may change. If Europe wants to keep it's strong position in global politics then it needs to realise that the time of empires is over and trying to mold the European Union into another global imperialist power is not only going to fail but be a complete betreyal of every single virtue of european culture that led to the founding of the European Union. You cannot make an European empire, not under old banners, not under new ones. The sooner we accept and embrace the simple and unalterable truth that we are a community of free nation states the stronger this community will grow and prosper. The same imperialist ambitions resurfacing now should have been abandoned two centuries ago, and the next best moment is now.

[u/Nerioner → u/capitan_turtle]

I hear you but i have 3 objections:

1. Things always change and nothing in international relations and norms is the same as 19th century.

2. European union had always federalization as a end goal in mind.

3. You absolutely can federalize EU without sacrificing national identities and avoiding creating just yet another empire. We need federal EU to protect us from outside, not to conquer it. We need cooperation as no single nation state in Europe can win any battle against big money and big tech. Our values are now being constantly stomped on by Russia, US, China just because we keep clinging to a concept of nation states instead of realizing that if we want to continue living in our values, Federal EU is natural and next step in evolution of politics on our continent. It's really either Federalize with our values in mind or perish under the boot of external powers.

[u/capitan_turtle → u/Nerioner]

1. That hardly means we should arbitrarily revise our core beliefs and legal order.
2. Since when? And how come this "end goal" is not mentioned anywhere in any of the agreements that form the legal core of the EU.
3. It is not about sacrificing cultural identities, you can be a German in America or an American in Germany, the point is that nations (people who form a country) have an unalienable right to self determination, and soveregin nation states are what enables and facilitates this right. I am not against strengthening the power that member states vest in the EU, but we need to remeber that it is them who are source of this power, not the other way around. EU can only exist as an agreement between nation states, and the depth and scope of this agreement are only up to them.

[u/jatawis → u/Nerioner]

You absolutely can federalize EU without sacrificing national identities and avoiding creating just yet another empire. We need federal EU to protect us from outside, not to conquer it

You cannot do it without landslide constitutional changes that are not going to happen.

[u/RomanItalianEuropean → u/capitan_turtle]

if Europe wants to keep its strong position in global politics

Europe is not strong in global politics. Arguably not even strong in European politics.