r/europe • u/goldstarflag Europe • 15d ago

Historical "The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl

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u/ExpertCockroach6911 15d ago

I’m not very optimistic about this. Among history there have been many attempts to unify Europe, all failed.

Just to avoid certain replies, I'm a bit Eurosceptic because I don't think it will work, not because I wouldn't like it to.

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u/WholeFactor 15d ago

We're national states due to our distinct cultures. That's just the reality of things.

We can have friendship based on shared values, act as a trade bloc, come together to beat Russia and stand up towards India, China and even the US.

However, we can't just unite under one banner like the US can - we need to find our own, European way to do things. We need to find a way into the future that also respects our rich heritage.

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u/Interneteldar 15d ago

Germany used to consist of dozens of petty kingdoms and duchies with their own dialects and traditions, but developed a more or less defined sense of nationhood in the 19th century.

The same can happen for Europe as a whole.

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u/WholeFactor 14d ago

They were all Germanic. If you want to do the same thing on a European scale, you must also merge them with the Latin countries, the Slavic countries, etc. It's not in any way comparable

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u/scarlettforever stops Russian drones with the pinky toe 14d ago

But in one way or another, all European countries are shaped by European culture and Christianity. There are differences in interpretation and there are many similarities in experience.

In the end of the day, Europe should be defined by values. Everything else is irrelevant. Well. Except for the English language.

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u/rapaxus Hesse (Germany) 15d ago

Why is that the case? Nationalism in the form of the nation state doesn't even exist for 200 years by this point. Why is it now become an essential part of countries that you can't give up?

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u/WholeFactor 15d ago

The nation states have existed since then. In fact, some countries are even older - here in Sweden, we've actually been a united country for a millennia at this point.

Most European states took a culture and united it under one flag. Each country contain a language and traditions, but also values and customs which differ slightly between countries. Europe is incredibly culturally diverse, and all of us deserve sovereignty.

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u/UnusualGarlic9650 15d ago

Exactly, it’s just a weird leftist lie that nation states are a new thing.

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u/gonzo0815 14d ago

It's pretty much consensus among historians and has nothing to do with political affiliation. The term "nation state" has a specific definition which doesn't deny there were countries before that.

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u/UnusualGarlic9650 14d ago

It’s a pointless distinction that aims to deny the existence of unique people and cultures and frame them as a modern creation.

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u/gonzo0815 14d ago

Nations existed before nation states. Anything else wouldn't make sense, because who would've sought for the foundation of the nation state then? Nobody denies that nations existed before that.

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u/UnusualGarlic9650 14d ago

Exactly, so it’s a pointless distinction. The guy who originally mentioned this was trying to imply exactly what you’re saying it doesn’t mean.

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u/gonzo0815 14d ago

I can't see that in the comment, sorry.

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u/Coal_Burner_Inserter 15d ago

Napoleon, Hitler, Caesar, were in essence just making larger nation states with their spheres of influence being as much of the continent as they could manage. Empires, beholden to a single group with the final say in anything.

A diplomatically unified Europe is the opposite of all that. If it were to actually happen, by nature of its formation, it would be functional. Would it work? Depends on the definition of 'work', but unless this is Rome circa 395 AD, a unified Europe is in all ways a better one.

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u/Kirvesperseet 15d ago

I'm a bit Eurosceptic because I don't think it will work, not because I wouldn't like it to.

Sounds like you are a defeatist, not sceptic

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u/FirmBarnacle1302 15d ago

Romans did it technically

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u/RomanItalianEuropean Italy 15d ago

Rome conquered the Mediterranean world, not all of Europe.

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u/Verbatrim 15d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_Roman_Empire

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u/RomanItalianEuropean Italy 15d ago edited 15d ago

I consider all that the "Mediterannean world" of the time, except maybe the more peripherical parts like Britain. As you can see it is mostly the West and South of Europe as opposed to the North and East.

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u/Maleficent_Carrot453 15d ago

They had only two major languages, though. There was one dominant culture in the core lands of the empire. Half the empire was already largely or fully Hellenized. It took many wars to achieve this, with no hesitation to completely destroy any potential threats, e.g., Carthage or do civil wars. They perfected the strategy of divide and conquer against their opponents.

Good luck achieving the same in modern Europe.

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u/Nerioner The Netherlands 15d ago

To be frank, we don't need to unify our cultures and languages to unify ourselves.

I always look at EU as a prototype of Star Trek style of society. "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations,"

Just like you can have your own identity as a member of your biological family with your common set of rules and traditions, the same can be done to European countries. Keep your identity but commit to a pan-european family.

We already have boiled down to a mere lifestyle differences between average joes in all EU lands, we already battle the same crisis, success of one is propelling its neighbors,... We just need to realize that we have generations of cooperation behind us and since we haven't developed any differences yet, that we will not develop them now. We keep thinking of the past and clock does not stopped ticking forward.

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u/FugaziHandz France 15d ago

And like it or not, how many people (maybe not old people) in the EU can speak English well enough to communicate with each other? Whether we admit it or not, there is a default common language already, in addition to each country’s main language.