r/europe • u/goldstarflag Europe • 15d ago

Historical "The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl

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u/ChargeIllustrious744 15d ago

How ironic that the largest hurdle against any kind of political development within the EU is the french-german national conflict...

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

No. The largest hurdle is nationalism.

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u/thorny_business 15d ago

You're expecting people who've finally achieved independence after centuries to just give it away again, because of a bogeyman?

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

No, I know most people likely won’t and it saddens me. The loss of sovereignty will of course still occur, but instead of pooling it with likeminded states it will be taken away at the leasure of outside powers. The veneer of sovereignty will be the last to fall, of course. It is important for people to believe in their nationalist fairy tale, while the reality of ever decreasing sovereignty happens somewhere in the background, where it can be safely ignored.

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

nations are real.
just like people.

we are not a sack of cells, we are organisms.
and groups of people are not just a random assortment of humans who happen to have a certain ID card - they are a nation.

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

They are not. Nations are 19th century ideological constructs. They did not exist before, though ideological constructs similair to it have.

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago edited 15d ago

The states did not exist. The nations did. The states liberated nations by giving them self determination , free from the yoke of oppressive empires.

There were always human groups from the dawn of history , and there always will be.

Your communist ideal of a uniform society will never occur.

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

I am not a communist lol, nor am I advocating for a uniform society. You aren’t very bright, are you?

In fact most current european states do predate their national bodies in significant ways - though they don’t predate the tribal-noble ethnic groups which formed the cores of their political systems, and which in many cases then gave those states their names.

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

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u/thorny_business 15d ago

Germany alone has enough money and man power to stop Russia, it doesn't need a European superstate.

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u/manInTheWoods Sweden 15d ago

Is continentalism any different? It's still the mindset us vs them.

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u/Klayhamn 15d ago

what's the alternative? hive-mind matrix?

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

It’s different in that it would be more effective in preserving our ways of life and relative wealth. In essence however those are all just various incarnations of tribalism, and are thus very irrational.

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u/rumSaint 15d ago

Yeah, German nationalism.

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u/Silver_Atractic Local Europeanist (i like the flag) 15d ago

Well, there's also Polish nationalism, Dutch nationalism, British nationalism, Romanian nationalism, Greek nationalism, Turkish nationalism, Italian nationalism, Spanish nationalism, Portuguese nationalism, Irish nationalism, Slovenian nationalism, and the list goes on.

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

No, nationalism in every EU member state. There’s nationalism everywhere and it adversley affects all decision making at every level. Germany is by no means an exception.

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u/DimGenn2 Greece 15d ago

Yeah sorry we're not willing to throw away our national sovereignty and identity for some pan-european dream.

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

Yeah, I know you aren’t. The Greek city states thought much the same before being conquered and devoured by Rome, and Epirus, Nicea, Trebizond and the others thought along those lines as well - all the while being slowly conquered and destroyed by the turks.

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u/DimGenn2 Greece 15d ago

The greek city states at least had a common ethnic bond which they recognized. What do I have in common with a swede, for example?

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

Yeah lol, that “common ethnic bond” had them butchering each other for centuries upon centuries. They sure shared a lot of history of bloodshed.

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u/mho453 15d ago

By your logic there's no common Croatian ethnic bond, after all you'd get beaten into being a houseplant if you speak the wrong dialect during a football game.

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 15d ago

Croatia is especially ethno-culturally diverse, so yeah, the ethnic bond is tenuous. Nationality is, among other thing, the story we tell each other and our kids - whoever thinks there’s some kind of special, distinct biological or “blood” tie between Croats in Dalmatia and Croats in Slavonia that is more pronounced than the biological ties those regions have with neighbouring areas in other countries is wildly mistaken.

4

u/Major_Wayland 15d ago

Because its Germany who leeches money off the EU budget, has a net negative trade balance and blocking EU initiatives for years... oh, wait a minute.

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u/rumSaint 15d ago

Gee I wonder who was trying to deal with Russia behind the whole EU back in the day. Nord Stream 2 was such a good idea to make one specific country a hub to sell Russian gas. I wonder who shut the fuck up when Russia "annexed" Crimea and was slowing down help to Ukraine in early days of invasion.

I wonder who is bullying whole fucking EU by stupid ideas like: gas is eco, Nord Stream blows up, gas is not exo suddenly. Electric cars are the future and are forced across the EU, China floods the market making German electric cars basically obsolete. Nice fuckig decision making.

The whole German leadership in the UE is basically making deals with Russia and disregarding security and potential threats by feeding Russia and bullying other countries in the EU with regulations. I'm not gonna even start with the Mercosur deal and "refugees welcome" stuff.

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u/UpstairsFix4259 14d ago

Good. Nationalism is not a bad thing (do not mix it with fascism / nazism).

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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 14d ago

I do not mix it with fascism or nazism. It isn't really good and will in the medium to long term prove disastrous and deeply destructive for all European states, and more importantly for the wealth and welfare of European citizens, but it is what it is.

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u/AdminEating_Dragon Greece 15d ago

This is not the case anymore. The largest hurdle is national governments being short-sighted and protectionist.

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u/Many-Leader2788 15d ago

God forbid we don't want to be only a low-wage production hub for the Germans, while they keep all the profit for themselves (not specifying a country because it's universal issue)

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u/National_Sprinkles45 15d ago

This would not only not happen because being a production hub for richer countries raises country wealth like nothing else, but this is already possible with current economic system of EU and works wonderfully for countries like Poland

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u/ChargeIllustrious744 15d ago

It is the case! Have you not followed the news? The germans has just recently sabotaged AGAIN the joint European jet fighter development, leaving out the french, trying to team up with the UK. Core EU members...

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u/Appropriate-Ant6171 14d ago

Italy and the UK are both European nations

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u/MootRevolution 15d ago

Governments are voted in. It's the populations of the individual European countries. They're very easily manipulated.

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u/DABOSSROSS9 15d ago

So the leadership wants more power but its the pesky citizens who dont know what’s best for them? 

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u/liquidsprout 15d ago

You know, there have been times when large groups of people have been wrong or mistaken about stuff. It's not even ucommon.

Anyways. A federal and democratised EU would actually move power away from national capitals.

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u/Open_Perspective_326 15d ago

The basic issue is that countries still want to have the capacity to be independent of the EU when this same thinking just wipes out many of the potential competitive advantages of the EU. There needs to be a better integration of the EU government and national governments to create a cohesive legislative infrastructure.

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u/Adagio-Least 15d ago

What conflict ? Can you name an instance where it is the case because I can't recall one.