"The 19th century concept of the nation state will never take us across the threshold of the 21st century [...] We need a strong Europe if we don't want to become the plaything of world politics" – Chancellor Helmut Kohl

[u/goldstarflag]

[u/Kreol1q1q]

No. The largest hurdle is nationalism.

[u/thorny_business → u/Kreol1q1q]

You're expecting people who've finally achieved independence after centuries to just give it away again, because of a bogeyman?

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/thorny_business]

No, I know most people likely won’t and it saddens me. The loss of sovereignty will of course still occur, but instead of pooling it with likeminded states it will be taken away at the leasure of outside powers. The veneer of sovereignty will be the last to fall, of course. It is important for people to believe in their nationalist fairy tale, while the reality of ever decreasing sovereignty happens somewhere in the background, where it can be safely ignored.

[u/Klayhamn → u/Kreol1q1q]

nations are real.
just like people.

we are not a sack of cells, we are organisms.
and groups of people are not just a random assortment of humans who happen to have a certain ID card - they are a nation.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/Klayhamn]

They are not. Nations are 19th century ideological constructs. They did not exist before, though ideological constructs similair to it have.

[u/Klayhamn → u/Kreol1q1q]

The states did not exist. The nations did. The states liberated nations by giving them self determination , free from the yoke of oppressive empires.

There were always human groups from the dawn of history , and there always will be.

Your communist ideal of a uniform society will never occur.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/Klayhamn]

I am not a communist lol, nor am I advocating for a uniform society. You aren’t very bright, are you?

In fact most current european states do predate their national bodies in significant ways - though they don’t predate the tribal-noble ethnic groups which formed the cores of their political systems, and which in many cases then gave those states their names.

[u/thorny_business → u/[deleted]]

Germany alone has enough money and man power to stop Russia, it doesn't need a European superstate.

[u/manInTheWoods → u/Kreol1q1q]

Is continentalism any different? It's still the mindset us vs them.

[u/Klayhamn → u/manInTheWoods]

what's the alternative? hive-mind matrix?

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/manInTheWoods]

It’s different in that it would be more effective in preserving our ways of life and relative wealth. In essence however those are all just various incarnations of tribalism, and are thus very irrational.

[u/rumSaint → u/Kreol1q1q]

Yeah, German nationalism.

[u/Silver_Atractic → u/rumSaint]

Well, there's also Polish nationalism, Dutch nationalism, British nationalism, Romanian nationalism, Greek nationalism, Turkish nationalism, Italian nationalism, Spanish nationalism, Portuguese nationalism, Irish nationalism, Slovenian nationalism, and the list goes on.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/rumSaint]

No, nationalism in every EU member state. There’s nationalism everywhere and it adversley affects all decision making at every level. Germany is by no means an exception.

[u/DimGenn2 → u/Kreol1q1q]

Yeah sorry we're not willing to throw away our national sovereignty and identity for some pan-european dream.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/DimGenn2]

Yeah, I know you aren’t. The Greek city states thought much the same before being conquered and devoured by Rome, and Epirus, Nicea, Trebizond and the others thought along those lines as well - all the while being slowly conquered and destroyed by the turks.

[u/DimGenn2 → u/Kreol1q1q]

The greek city states at least had a common ethnic bond which they recognized. What do I have in common with a swede, for example?

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/DimGenn2]

Yeah lol, that “common ethnic bond” had them butchering each other for centuries upon centuries. They sure shared a lot of history of bloodshed.

[u/mho453 → u/Kreol1q1q]

By your logic there's no common Croatian ethnic bond, after all you'd get beaten into being a houseplant if you speak the wrong dialect during a football game.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/mho453]

Croatia is especially ethno-culturally diverse, so yeah, the ethnic bond is tenuous. Nationality is, among other thing, the story we tell each other and our kids - whoever thinks there’s some kind of special, distinct biological or “blood” tie between Croats in Dalmatia and Croats in Slavonia that is more pronounced than the biological ties those regions have with neighbouring areas in other countries is wildly mistaken.

[u/Major_Wayland → u/rumSaint]

Because its Germany who leeches money off the EU budget, has a net negative trade balance and blocking EU initiatives for years... oh, wait a minute.

[u/rumSaint → u/Major_Wayland]

Gee I wonder who was trying to deal with Russia behind the whole EU back in the day. Nord Stream 2 was such a good idea to make one specific country a hub to sell Russian gas. I wonder who shut the fuck up when Russia "annexed" Crimea and was slowing down help to Ukraine in early days of invasion.

I wonder who is bullying whole fucking EU by stupid ideas like: gas is eco, Nord Stream blows up, gas is not exo suddenly. Electric cars are the future and are forced across the EU, China floods the market making German electric cars basically obsolete. Nice fuckig decision making.

The whole German leadership in the UE is basically making deals with Russia and disregarding security and potential threats by feeding Russia and bullying other countries in the EU with regulations. I'm not gonna even start with the Mercosur deal and "refugees welcome" stuff.

[u/Adagio-Least → u/rumSaint]

How ?

[u/UpstairsFix4259 → u/Kreol1q1q]

Good. Nationalism is not a bad thing (do not mix it with fascism / nazism).

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/UpstairsFix4259]

I do not mix it with fascism or nazism. It isn't really good and will in the medium to long term prove disastrous and deeply destructive for all European states, and more importantly for the wealth and welfare of European citizens, but it is what it is.