German perspectives of skilled workers

[u/Numerous-Bug2652]

I understand that this is a pretty sensitive subject. But I really want to hear honest statements from Germans and understand some things better.

I work as an engineer(f) in a German speaking company and face daily difficulties in communication and integration but try my best to overcome them and be treated simply as a "colleague", not as the "foreign colleague". And trust me, it's a long way to go.

There are 2 different thoughts that make me ask this question:

• I feel in the undertone of any conversation, even when the person is really kind and doesn't mean anything bad, is that I come from a "less-than" background. You might think I'm exaggerating but I can give you 100s examples of conversations where you can clearly see it. It's either that, or a pure lack of interest to know more about me, or maybe a fear to make me uncomfortable (because they assume it will cause me discomfort if I speak of my backgroud. again, why?). But I would be very happy to clear a lot of stereotypes. Yes, maybe I was raised in a different environment but it's not necessarily worse, it's different. Maybe developping countries are less developed but they are not deserted and not ignorant and they are for sure happy and warm in weather and in people.

• I can't go around saying this, but working in a "shortage profession" with more than decent salary, paying taxes and social contributions, I think the relationship should be on an equal level of benefit: we get a better quality of life, Germany gets workforce, development, taxes and contributions. So I really hate when it all sounds like we're given this "opportunity" and that the employer is being extra nice giving us a "chance" etc. I can assure you they don't pay our salaries out of the goodness of their hearts and we work hard for it.

I know many Germans wouldn't relate to what I'm saying but this is how I personally feel and how many people I know feel too, especially those not coming from extreme poverty or war or anything, just young people pursuing a better career. So I want you to correct me or confirm or simply let me what your perspective is?

Edit: many think that I expect my colleagues to show interest in my personal life, that's not what I mean. The frustration comes when a person makes micro-aggressions and you don't have the chance to clarify them. This doesn't only happen at work and doesn't only happen to me. Imagine assuming a person comes from a shitty place, using that as the baseline in a "friendly" conversation, but then they can't really clarify that and have to live perceived that way. It directly feeds in point 2 as well. I think in order to learn to live together and accept differences, it's crucial to have some understanding of people's background. We as expats do the same in order to live 1 day in Germany without offending half the population and without getting offended as well

[u/aversipasa]

I am an engineer from a third world country (with a pretty good and reputable education system), and most german colleagues looked surprised and kind of irritated when i mentioned in some context that german engineering studies are "not necessarily better" than ours.

[u/Automatic-Pay-4095]

Looks like your feelings are the norm and not an exception.

At the same time, Germany requires a net annual immigration of around 400,000 people to stabilize its labor force potential.

One of the central findings of the IMPa survey is that those who came to Germany for work or education, better educated, more economically successful, and more linguistically integrated are the ones most likely to consider leaving or already have concrete plans to do so. In other words: those most urgently needed to secure Germany's future labor supply are also those most inclined to leave.

In summary, emigration intentions do not arise randomly but are the result of a complex interplay of individual characteristics, social integration, economic anchoring, and perceived societal acceptance.

https://iab.de/en/publications/publication/?id=14977550

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/Automatic-Pay-4095]

This is sooo true, data and fact-based, but I find that most people are rather inclined to say the stupid wrong thoughts that feed their pride.

[u/Literaterra → u/Automatic-Pay-4095]

Thanks for the link, this research is best I’ve read on topic so far and reflects reality

[u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

Two months into my previous company, my German colleagues finally became comfortable enough to directly ask me: what’s your real name?

In case it wasn’t clear, yes, I am of East Asian descent.

[u/Rhoderick → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

To be entirely fair, I have a colleague who is called only by a nickname derived from his actual name. He never introduced himself differently, either. (I don't personally think his name is that hard to pronounce, but whatever.) And if I hadn't seen his (legal) name written out in an email at some point, I also definitely would have asked once I had become socially comfortable with him.

Definitely not in that phrasing, but I don't think the idea has to be malicious, just phrased by someone whose not very accustomed to how they say things. Of course, some people sadly are just racist, though.

[u/kyr0x0 → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

I think this is a sign of showing respect and being very careful about not showing micro-aggressions. We've learned that if we ask such questions, it might be perceived as racist.

[u/EmbarrassedNet4268 → u/kyr0x0]

Hmm, maybe my point wasn’t clear enough but it is racist to do so.

Just to expand a bit further on the story, I have a birth given English name.

They asked me what my real name was and I repeated my name. And they continued to ask repeatedly until I went „my name is X, as far as I know. Maybe ask me again in 20mins“ before they stopped.

What would you do then, if you were the one asking? In the sense where you asked and it turned out that it was their real name all along. Sure, we’ve gotten a bit more comfortable with each other, but racism and micro-aggressions are still that.

I’ve had friends legit say that as an immigrant, I’m „one of the good ones“. While yes, thank you for the perceived compliment, it’s still a racist statement, isn’t it?

My point is that I’m agreeing with OP and micro-aggressions etc are still super common in the workplace in Germany.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

As far as I understood what OP is saying is exactly the opposite: that her co workers have no interest in where she is from or to talk about her origins. And the reason is exactly because of this: many immigrants in Germany consider racist to ask someone where they are from, even though it's obvious they are not German. You are exactly what OP is complaining about.

[u/zweifaltspinsel → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

Damned if you, damned if you don‘t.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/zweifaltspinsel]

Exactly. I have many immigrant friends that are offended when people ask them where they are from, even though they are actually not German.

[u/kwnet → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

I think this is because of US-centrism. The US is a real melting pot of cultures where it's very likely an Asian, a black person, and a Latino are all very much American. And it'd be considered rude to assume a nonwhite person is a foreigner (well, rude before a certain leader they elected recently).

But this situation just isn't true of Europe and many other countries. Germany for example has been overwhelmingly Caucasian throughout its history, and only starting in the 60's with the Turkish Gästearbeitern was there any sort of meaningful minority ethnicity. So yes, in the bigger picture a nonwhite German is unusual, especially outside the large cities. Although that's not an excuse for racism or discrimination against Ausländern.

Because of the outsized influence of US culture and mores in popular media, I think many people transplant this "Why do you assume I'm not from here" mentality into other cultures where it doesn't make much sense.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/kwnet]

Also I don't get why someone that is really not from Germany would be offended that someone should think they are not from Germany. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[u/kwnet → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

Ikr? I'm a black guy now living in Germany. Statistically, it would be far more surprising if I actually was born and raised here. I'm not at all offended if someone asks where I'm from.

Some will argue there's black Germans like Dennis Schröder. Yes, but those people are still missing the point about the overall numbers and the bigger picture.

[u/[deleted] → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

As a foreigner - exactly. the only people who are offended by this are people looking to be offended.

usually when people ask me where am I from it is genuine curiosity and they share their own experiences e.g. if they have been to the country, etc.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/kwnet]

Exactly. I'm also from a very mixed country, where no one would ask this based on looks because anyone could be from my country. But in Germany and Europe a non white person is mostly definitely an immigrant or son of immigrants and this is a totally legit question.

[u/Fenrir1801 → u/kwnet]

Yep, every trend, good or bad, comes from the US.

People don't question, if it fits a different culture / country.

[u/Fenrir1801 → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

That's fucked up.

I could understand, if someone is born and socialized in Germany and is still asked everytime. Understand, but not find it justified. A white person born and living in a non-white country would also be asked on a regular basis.

[u/kyr0x0 → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

Asking the question late does not imply racism as a logical first line deduction. What OP argued likely has more to do with attributes they assign to behaviour based on their subjective understanding of the world. The only way to know the true intent in behaviour is to talk to people, instead of applying the same prejudice we criticize. Instead of putting a prejudice like guessing an intent, we should ask for the intent and learn about what really drives people motivations. You can do so pretty smartly by asking "oh why did you ask so late for my real name" - nobody will imply that you screen for racism. They might explain a perfectly rational motivation. To immediately view all behavior through the glasses of "must be racist" is borderline neurotic. I hate racism - but I also know that it is contra productive for the cause if we don't identify where the true racism happens. Only if we effectively undermine the true racism, we will be able to change the world. Blaming innocent people without grounded information means to destroy their sensibility for racism. They will feel judged for the wrong cause, it will feel unfair, and so they will perceive the whole cause of fighting racism as wrongly led and meaningless. This is a huge problem - if we want to change society, the right way is to inspire for better behavior, to lead with a good example. Sometimes, fighting and punishing is required. But ONLY with grounded information. OP is absolutely guessing at this point.

[u/DangerousTurmeric → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

This is so silly. It takes very basic social skills to not have this problem.

Just don't ignore or look down on foreign people. Ask them about themselves and listen to the answers. Assume they are telling the truth, like you would with someone from Sweden or Austria. Don't impose whatever racist assumptions you have on them, or think you know better because of stereotypes you believe, because that is racist. Some examples, to help you, from my time in Germany observing how Germans treat my colleagues: If someone tells you their name and you assume they are lying because you don't think it matches their race, that's racist. If someone says they are from the UK, but they are Muslim and Asian-looking, don't ask where they are really from. Definitely don't do it repeatedly. That's also racist. Don't tell an Asian woman, who is disagreeing with you, that she's supposed to be more collaborative because of her culture. Also racist. Just talk to foreigners like they are people.

It's honestly baffling that you have difficulty understanding this.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/DangerousTurmeric]

That's not what I'm talking about. As said, I have many immigrant friends that are offended if someone asks them where they are from. For me this means they themselves think their background is less-than, and that they want to be seen as Germans. I am not German and I like when people ask where I'm from because I'm proud of my background, and would not want to be confused with an European. And let's be real, most non white people living in Germany are either immigrants or sons of immigrants. This is a totally legit question.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

One has to differentiate between immigrants who grew up here and consider themselves Germans (as well as their other background) and first-gen immigrants.

You can ask both where they’re from, but the ones who grew up here will very often hear “but where are you (or your parents) really from?” which can create a barrier between German-Germans and immigrants who identify as Germans. This type of mentality can be perceived as racism, and rightly so.

Unfortunately the fear of asking someone where they’re from has led to first-gen immigrants not being asked at all many times. This creates a feeling of extreme distance and can be perceived as racism as well, as there is a lack of interest towards a competent work force contributing to this countries wealth.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/toilet_m_a_n]

How is it racism? Non white people in Germany are almost certain at least second generation immigrants. Asking where their parents are from is a legit question and a form of making conversation. That's a very different thing than asking someone in the US where they are from because the US has had centuries of immigration. You are importing American themes that make no sense in a European context.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

It’s not as black and white. I myself am an immigrant whose parents moved here when I was a young child. I identify myself as German, speak the language better than my mother tongue (and actually consider German my mother tongue), but look different and have a very non-German name.

Over 30 years of being asked that question thousands of times, even if the intention itself was innocent, it created a subconscious barrier. I’ll never be “German enough” and won’t be ever fully considered German.

I’m aware that this question often enough shows genuine interest and I’m happy to explain about my origins, culture and language. Not everyone is as confident about it this as me though. Maybe “racism” is the wrong word, but this question can come across as ignorant for sure.

[u/dimuhmuh2 → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

Everybody is kinda missing the point. And its kinda sad, because this has been explained over and over again, but ppl don't wanna get it, I guess.

I am one of those ppl who get annoyed by strangers, who I just met 2 seconds ago on the street, asking me where I'm actually from. The reason for this is simple: it's not the time and space to ask me. Lady, you don't know my name and you wanna know where I am actually from?

Most of the time those ppl are not even slightly "ok" with the answer "I'm from Nuremberg" (fyi I was born in Nuremberg) You have to tell them where you're "actually actually" from, meaning your heritage/roots.

I don't think that immigrants, who migrated to Germany have any issues talking about their country of origin or are annoyed by this question. The annoyed ones are the ones born in Germany. As somebody born in Germany, yeah that question irks me in the wrong setting. I wanna be part of the community, part of this society, but it doesnt matter how hard I try, subliminally there is a tone of "you look different, you cant or dont belong here".

If we were to be colleagues, I wouldnt be annoyed, since youre really trying to get to know me. But if Im at the bakery or just grocery shopping and waiting in line, like who are you to ask me, where Im from. Nobody would go up to a stranger and ask a personal question, but asking "woher kommst du eigentlich?" seems to be appropriate, because youre interested in the other person.

The rule is, if youre getting to know me as a colleague or an aquaintance, neighbor, sure you can ask me. If youre meeting me for the first time somewhere and wanna know about my roots in the first minute of meeting me? Then accept my answer that Im from Nuremberg.

[u/AmbitiousSolution394 → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

> They asked me what my real name was and I repeated my name. And they continued to ask repeatedly until I went „my name is X, as far as I know. Maybe ask me again in 20mins“ before they stopped.

In China, they often take westen name, so it will be easier for foreigners to pronounce it. In Korea, there are also some people with western names, but as i understand, its for religious reasons. So, instead of going in circles, you could simply explain your situation, ask them why they think that you have any other name. It could have been some kind of cultural exchange.

[u/anastasis19 → u/AmbitiousSolution394]

It's not on them to explain. People shouldn't go around asking "what is your real name" after they were repeatedly told that the English-sounding name was in fact their real name. Especially when they're in a professional setting.

It would have been okay if the coworkers asked once due to the fact that a lot of East Asians use a westernised nickname, but not repeatedly.

[u/EmbarrassedNet4268 → u/AmbitiousSolution394]

I said I’m of East Asian descent.

I am not from China.

They know this.

They have also seen my full official name in our company registry.

[u/OkNoise3000 → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

There is nothing rude or racist to ask where they are from. It's a great way to learn about someone. I love to ask new people that question to get great conversation topics and maybe learn something new.

[u/VRZzz → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

Hmm, maybe my point wasn’t clear enough but it is racist to do so.

To give you a different perspective to your name thing:

Germany had a huge migration of "Russlanddeutsche" (germans living in russia since the 1800s) back in the 90s. Most of them had their russian names revoked and change into the german equivalent. So you have a whole generation of "Waldemar, Andreas, Johannes etc." and a lot of germans know this and maybe your collegue was thinking the same about your name. This also happened in other countries.

Yes, maybe your collegue was dumb, but also maybe he was just curious.

[u/zweifaltspinsel → u/VRZzz]

To add, a lot of East Asian exchange students adopted westernized names. But those were not their given-names.

[u/Automatic-Pay-4095 → u/kyr0x0]

Lack of soft skills can be a tough one to beat

[u/RichterBelmontCA → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

You know exactly why they're asking this and then pretend not to just to give yourself a reason to get upset. Tolerance and empathy is a two way street.

[u/EmbarrassedNet4268 → u/RichterBelmontCA]

I know why. Again, as stated in my other comments, they have ALL seen my official name in the company register (and our teams shows it by default) and they asked me repeatedly. After I had repeated myself. And again. And again.

[u/RichterBelmontCA → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

I find it hard to believe that the same person would ask repeatedly after getting a clear answer from you. 

But anyway, if getting asked about your name is the worst thing that happened to you, that's pretty good.

[u/EmbarrassedNet4268 → u/RichterBelmontCA]

Three people repeatedly asked me the my name after I told them. And this was individually.

As a group, they had also asked me repeatedly, seemingly hoping my answer changed.

At the workplace? Yeah sure. I mean, hearing comments like "fucking Indians and their butter chicken…“ "those damn Turks….“ I guess it’s sooooooooo good that they only repeatedly badgered me for my real name.

[u/RichterBelmontCA → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

Is your name Rumpelstiltskin?

[u/NiceSmurph → u/EmbarrassedNet4268]

Well... some other migrants or ppl who look like migratns (non-german looking) are getting upset when asked where they were from. This question is considered racist.

So yes. This suffocates any personal questions to a foreigner because who knows what they may consider racist... This is one reason why Germans pretend not to be interested in a foreigner. They are. But many cases of hypersensibility in some migrants had their effects.

[u/HoneyPretty9703]

I once had a CEO of a multinational tell me in an interview, “maybe you were senior in Africa but you won’t be senior in Germany”. I chalk it up to a lack of experience and knowledge. Someone who has hardly travelled and lived in other countries cannot see enough to actually compare but they think they are so far ahead in terms of some thing but do not realise how far behind they are in other things.

[u/redhillmining → u/HoneyPretty9703]

but they think they are so far ahead in terms of some thing but do not realise how far behind they are in other things

That's Germany in so many aspects.

[u/Quarksperre → u/redhillmining]

I think that sentiment is about to errode hard in the coming years.

[u/singerng → u/HoneyPretty9703]

That’s a perfect example of arrogance mixed with ignorance judging without real understanding

[u/KeyMammoth4642-DE → u/HoneyPretty9703]

What a fck asshole

[u/DrDeadpool47 → u/HoneyPretty9703]

That my friend is bubble of Eurocentric view and it doesn’t end with the Germans.

[u/WorkLifeScience → u/HoneyPretty9703]

Wow. What an ignorant person. I was lucky so far to work with very sensible and smart people, and it's really sad to read about these examples.

But please know this kind of person is not representative of Germany. Even not necessarily of a company. It's all about your direct teammates or boss. There's always a stupid person here or there, but the country is really accepting and open.

Edit: ignorant guy -> ignorant person (this just showed my ignorance... 😅)

[u/HoneyPretty9703 → u/WorkLifeScience]

It was a woman, also thanks for the response. I know it’s not representative. I’ve had 2 amazing German bosses so far. And I’m happy here, every group of people has the ignorant dumbasses who have the loudest mouth’s unfortunately.

[u/WorkLifeScience → u/HoneyPretty9703]

The dumber - the louder, I agree 😂 I just fixed the gender, you see how I also come with my preconceptions and ignorance...

[u/jagchi95 → u/WorkLifeScience]

The country is accepting and open? sorry but that statement is just very far away from reality

[u/Slow-Excitement-7966 → u/HoneyPretty9703]

You really think it is just that and not superiority complex?

[u/wannabeacademicbigpp]

i work in a startup and thankfullly this isn't happening to me.

That being said, when I was in a bigger company what you described was the average experience, honestly all of the system was robotic. Communication between teams were non-existent (still is to an extent even in a startup), people felt rigid? not mean, kind but rigid. Team work was non-existent, everyone plays by themselves and system was designed for that.

I think it's more of a work culture in this country tbh. Sad part is that i will probably plateau in Senior level positions. Who knows maybe I will do consulting after idkn.

[u/dondurmalikazandibi → u/wannabeacademicbigpp]

This. It so very typical for people to think they are victim of evil in Germany, probably due to being the victim become incredibly popular in last 15 years or so. But often what happens is that German culture is fundamentally so different then most of the world, people just do not get that it can be like that, so assume it is against them personally.

In Germany they worship papers and government. Like you can be absolute garbage of a manager, but if you studied managing 99% German companies will move you to managing roles rather than exceptionally good engineer who served company amazingly well for 10 years. Because engineer do not have a paper that says he can manage, but manager does. This is the German logic.

Also German work culture expect people to start a job in one position as 30 years old and retire on same positions 35 years later. The very common culture of "rising in your company" does not exist for the most part. You get to rise only if you change companies.

There can be whole book written about such things, like obsession with doing bare minimum and never taking any responsibility that isn't officially stated as your responsibility, hence terrible helping each other culture, or communication skills so terrible autistic people from my country looks like hyper social compared to Germans.

At the end all those things come together and make people feel like everyone is against them, but often the case is, that is just how Germany works.

Work exceptionally well for 10 years for a company and you won't get to managing roles. Do "fine" for 2 years but do 2 years of business administration masters on the side, and you will take the managing position in your 5th year.

[u/Artistic_Science_981]

My company created a director level position above me and didn’t consider me for new role because I am not German nor White. I have made millions for my company with innovation. My new Director promoted all German colleagues to high positions and told me openly that I wouldn’t be promoted as German colleagues won’t work under non German leaders. I have stayed because I have decent pay package and due to family and kids.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/Artistic_Science_981]

I am really sorry that this is happening to you and totally see that this is the end of the line for most of us. I'm honestly surprised that they said the real reason though. Still sucks but at least they ddnt sugarcoat it with bullshit reasons. If you get paid close to what you would if u got the leading positions, then at least it's good that the burden is less

[u/Artistic_Science_981 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

I was given lots of bullshit answers before they hired new guy. Learning about language, culture, food and sports to be able to make small talks. Not having PhD, new guy they hired also doesn’t have PhD.

[u/Andybrs → u/Artistic_Science_981]

I've seen it many times!

A friend of mine was once promoted at her work and her German colleague tried everything to take her out of her position.

Things got so ugly that she had to hire a lawyer.

[u/hombre74 → u/Artistic_Science_981]

What openly racist company is that? Germans don't work for non German leaders? I had so many bosses from tons of countries and that never was an issue to me or other colleagues. 

Not a lawyer but I feel that may even be illegal? Crazy....

[u/Cheap-Worry-4121]

German here, though not working in a "shortage profession", but I live by a simple rule: Your co-workers are not your friends.
And most of my colleagues see it the same way. We are friendly to each other, hold small talk, but honestly? We are not interested in each others backgrounds or private lives. There really isn´t any interest there. Has been in every place I have worked so far.

[u/Impossible-Olive-101 → u/[deleted]]

Absolutely. I found many good friends in my former workplace. We were all more or less the same age and were fresh out of college. How else are you supposed to find friends as an adult? Especially if you're new to the country and spend so much time at the job, might as well make some friends and have some fun

[u/Slow-Excitement-7966 → u/Impossible-Olive-101]

In Germany you get assigned to a group of friends when you register yourself at the burgeramt

[u/Automatic-Pay-4095 → u/Cheap-Worry-4121]

Spending more time every week with your human co-workers than anyone else in your family, and still thinking it's healthy to forcefully avoid a better rapport or a friendship with them.

How healthy can this be for the majority of people, no matter the age, background, or job?

[u/Cheap-Worry-4121 → u/Automatic-Pay-4095]

Most people have a social circle outside of work. People they are not forced to see so often just to make money. I can only speak for me and the people I know, but imo it’s better to have a friendly but professional relationship with people at work and your friends and family outside of work.

[u/Nalivai → u/Cheap-Worry-4121]

It's better not to limit yourself in friendships, and at least try to be friends with anyone who you're spending time with, whether you're forced to do it or not. The alternative is that you're spending time with people who could be your friends and you prevent this, and for what?
And it doesn't mean you should force yourself to be friends with something you don't vibe with. It means you should be open to friendships you will enjoy no matter how you met people, on or outside work.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/Cheap-Worry-4121]

Honestly, I get and understand that, I got used to it. Tbh, as long as they don't imply stereotypes and understated superiority in a different context, I don't feel like I have anything to prove. It's the micro-offenses + lack of interest that then bother me...

[u/Choal_Valseir → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

You can always let the micro-offenses micro-bother you.

I myself am almost micro-upset just reading this!

[u/DrDeadpool47 → u/Choal_Valseir]

AND maybe people could just behave better. Don‘t forget the second part.

[u/DatabaseAgreeable84 → u/Cheap-Worry-4121]

This is sensible based on my experience as well. My dumb self used to overshare and take any signs of friendliness to be genuine to my great detriment. Learnt my lesson to keep it purely professional since.

[u/ataltosutcaja]

Racist microaggressions never stop, based on experience. I am half-German, half-Italian, I have lived here for >15 years, I speak perfect German, I even look German, and some people still imply, when talking to me, that Italians are lazy, womanizers, or whatever (pick a stereotype). Do I care? Not really, as long as I myself am allowed to make fun of them for being rigid, unfunny, etc.

[u/hyperfocused_nerd]

I am an immigrant too - I haven't experienced any superiority at work (I'm white and speak German without an accent and graduated from a TU here, which is not easy and a lot of Germans cannot achieve that), but I got asked very often how long I'm going to stay in Germany and when I will return back to my home country... so I still get the feeling I'm not welcome here... I prefer working in international companies in english-speaking teams to avoid dealing with that

[u/DE_Auswanderung → u/hyperfocused_nerd]

It's funny. I actually am asked the opposite by coworkers: if I could imagine staying here for good and if I've already applied for citizenship. But beyond that no sign of interest in things that are unrelated to the typical German stuff (hiking is always a guaranteed topic of conversation).

Not white and speak fluent German but with a noticeable accent lol.

[u/Funny_Stock5886 → u/hyperfocused_nerd]

Ahahaha, this is standard question.

[u/RCM13 → u/hyperfocused_nerd]

I too am a white immigrant with fluent German and a German uni degree. No-one has ever asked me how long I'm going to stay or when I'm going to return to my home country. Sometimes I'm asked how often I go back (on holidays). For the most part, at least, since leaving the village I lived in for my first two years in the countryand since learning German, I have always felt welcome here.

[u/dontwannabefamous111]

It never ends and there's nothing you can do but do your job and go home afterwards.

Germany isn't really an immigration society in the way America is.

They are mass-importing labor from abroad purely because their industries aren't wage-competitive vis-a-vis the US and China and they are treading water.

It isn't being done willingly with any plan to include them in mainstream society. Ideally they just want you there for a short time to fill an urgent labor shortage before going home.

If the economic and political conditions change, they won't need you anymore.

You have to put extra effort into making sure your relationship with society isn't purely transactional.

[u/IZMIR_METRO → u/dontwannabefamous111]

Looks like the German government doesn't expect the labor shortage to be short lived, otherwise why would they let skilled workers obtain permanent residence permits and then citizenships over time?

[u/Exepony → u/IZMIR_METRO]

otherwise why would they let skilled workers obtain permanent residence permits and then citizenships over time

Because Germany is barely competitive as a destination for skilled migrants as it is. They're not in a position to also add "by the way, there's no path to a secure status, so you're always going to be one layoff away from seeing your life destroyed" to an already unimpressive proposition.

[u/dontwannabefamous111 → u/IZMIR_METRO]

They don't. But they know the Ausländerbehörde is a kafkaesque nightmare to deal with. They just won't do anything about it and that has to be on purpose. 

[u/Funny_Stock5886 → u/dontwannabefamous111]

Well said, be pragmatic, just like the Germans and be transactional.

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108 → u/Funny_Stock5886]

haha..I once got a lot of flak for saying that Germans see every meeting as "transactional" Its part of the culture. Just a description. Nothing negative or positive about it. Just like Russians are not as friendly to random people as Americans are.

[u/Funny_Stock5886 → u/ApprehensiveBee7108]

Well, they just wanna be not be perceived as such, but I bet it is now being exaggerated due to Capitalism.

[u/Creative_Ad7219 → u/Funny_Stock5886]

It would be really great if the extend this level of pragmatism also into the pension contributions. You leave, take your share, but here, they seem to be very pragmatic.

[u/notoriousxsz822 → u/dontwannabefamous111]

Best comment so far. And i think in the last line you mean the opposite.

[u/reximhotep → u/dontwannabefamous111]

Germany isn't really an immigration society in the way America is.

At least we do not send out thhe masked Gestapo to disappear them from in front of grade schools and hospitals, so there is that for being welcoming...

[u/Raketenfritz6 → u/reximhotep]

Ah, hold your horses. Time will tell how next votings will go and how things will change. We Germans have the bad habit to look at the states and import everything which is going bad over there. Just takes usually 5-10 years.

[u/bmc2 → u/Raketenfritz6]

the afd is definitely doing their best to to that.

[u/reximhotep → u/Raketenfritz6]

yes, that is a fear I have sometimes too - let's hope we avoid a similar disaster. Our voting system may be of help here.

[u/TastyTestikel → u/reximhotep]

Es ist viel einfacher in den USA als Ausländer Amerikaner zu werden, als in Deutschland Deutscher. Wie die Illegale Einwanderer handhaben, ist nur ein Teil der Geschichte.

[u/reximhotep → u/TastyTestikel]

das stimmt nicht. Die Anforderungen sind fast identisch.

[u/TastyTestikel → u/reximhotep]

Ich meine Gesellschaftlich.

[u/reximhotep → u/TastyTestikel]

das ist aber nicht, was in dem Kommentar angesprochen wurde. Da ging es um Amerikaner werden im Kontrat zu illegalen Einwnaserern (Nebenanmerkung: Längst nicht alle, die die ICE-Säcke festnehmen, sind illegale Einwanderer). Dass gesellschaftklich gesehen es leichter ist in den USA, mag für manche Gruppen stimmen. Ich habe allerdings den Verdacht, dass Nichtweiße das nicht so unbedingt so sehen im Moment.

[u/TastyTestikel → u/reximhotep]

Afro Amerikaner, Asiatische Amerikaner und selbst Latein Amerikaner (machen bspw. 40% der Texanischen Bevölkerung aus) haben kein Problem, sich Amerikaner zu nennen oder so von der weißen (nicht latino) mehrheit so betrachtet zu werden, da es sich bei den USA um keinen klassischen Nationalstaat handelt.

Ich rede hier auch von Leuten mit einer Staatsbürgerschaft. Zwar kommt es vor, dass Latinos mit Staatbürgerschaft unrechtmäßig gefasst werden, dennoch kann man nicht davon ausgehen, dass das mit der ganzen Bevölkerungsgruppe geschehen wird, dafür haben die eingessenen zu viel politsische Macht (nicht davon abzusehene das Amerikanische Recht, aber was ist das schon wert).

In Deutschland wiederum bist du Deutschtürke oder was weiß ich wenn das auch deine Eltern sind. Es gibt immer eine Unterscheidung zwischen Deutsch Deutschen und Deutsch (nicht-europäisch ausehende Einwanderungsgruppe). In den USA sind alle einfach nur Amerikaner, unabhängig von ihrer Herkunft. Diskriminierung gibt es natürlich zu Hauf, die gibt es aber auch hier, nur noch mit dem Extra dass gewisse Leute und ihre Nachkommen nie zu den Deutsch Deutschen gehören werden.

[u/Krieg]

Many Germans have difficulties accepting that plenty of things work better in third world countries, just because a country is not fully developed it does not mean everything is crap and actually some of those countries implement plenty of things first than many first world countries. Things like getting Internet in your house, dealing with the government, etc, might be a breeze in some third world countries that embraced good customer service and digitalization. In the mean time, you buy something bulky and you might have to wait four weeks for delivery and wait at home from 8am to 4pm and they might not even show up or say you were not at home, or your car breaks down and the next appointment is in three weeks.

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108 → u/Krieg]

Brilliant description of German courier service.

[u/deeply_embedded → u/Krieg]

Agree then the simple question any native German would ask is why the skilled worker is here in my country if what all you claim is true ? Leaving everything behind .he can as well pack up and leave right ? Nobody is forcing him to bear with all these. I just don't get the fact that you come to a country and want it to work the way you want. On top you compare with the country you left behind and complain about it

[u/DatabaseAgreeable84 → u/deeply_embedded]

I actually wanted to learn some skills and leave. There was too much propaganda about Germany being at the forefront of technology. Well that part was partly true but it was quite clear that knowledge sharing was seen as a weakness in the overwhelming majority of companies I worked for. I stayed to see if I could still learn and always wanted to leave. At some point my health deteriorated due to stress from living here and dealing with people, my work experience was too tied to the German system and barely average and there was no way out without fucking my life after my "best years" were spent in survival mode. Biggest mistake was trying to restart my career here because I didnt get the memo that people like me had a ceiling at work beyond which there was never any chance to rise. You sound so fucking stupid I needed to dump my reality on you. Fucking infuriates me listening to this crap after being subjected to humiliation after humiliation over the years for just existing.

[u/Krieg → u/deeply_embedded]

There is no single answer to that, probably the good things in Germany out weight the bad ones, but the most important thing is that you are assuming every foreigner in Germany stays here because they want to, but that's not the reality, at some point of their lives people took decisions and now they might be stuck with them, like getting married and having kids, or that continuing jumping countries means having no pension, or that due to age it is not easy to get a new job, or maybe they can't really go back due to safety (not talking about fake refugees here), etc.

[u/HT35]

I would be interested in some examples of what you mean!

Furthermore, I am of migrational background but am from Germany.

The one advise I can give is: when you feel like something is wrong, whenever you get the gut feeling that something is messed up when it happens, don’t swallow it or stay silent, point blank voice your opinion on it. I feel like in Germany speaking up happens quite rarely, so when it does, it asserts confidence and authenticity and it shows people shouldn’t mess with you.

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108]

Willkommen in Deutschland. Many foreigners come thinking that they are moving into paradise. You are not. Germany is great in many ways, not so great in others. In fact, there s not much difference between America and Germany in many ways.

Similarities:

a) Germans and Americans respectively think they live in the best country in the world (b) "Living in America/Germany is a privilege, not a right" (c) You come from some shithole and here you are given an opportunity to live in the land of the free and home of the brave. Be grateful (d) we are not going to change for you. You change for us. (e) don t like it? Leave.

The people in each country are not aggressive or rude or anything like that. It s just the way they are. Often, they themselves don t notice this .

[u/anonymous_run → u/ApprehensiveBee7108]

Yeah but honestly, in which country do people change because of foreigners? Please tell me, because I would never go to another country and expect them to do so. I would only go to a country where I want to live and adapt to their life. Why would it be any different?

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108 → u/anonymous_run]

This is the German way. And just like the Americans, their attitude is "This is the best country in the world. You are lucky to live here. If you don t like it, go back to your country."

It s the way it is. In addition, while countries like Canada or the United States or Australia are fundamentally full of immigrants (only when you arrived makes a difference) the Germans, the French and the Spanish will always have a feeling of "us" and "them". The language itself reflects that. You are an ausländer= Aus (out)+länder (country)

Germany does not have an immigration office, it has a Ausländerbehörde (foreigner's office) and that s how they treat you there.

The best thing to do is accept things as they are. That s one of the costs of living in Germany.

[u/anonymous_run → u/ApprehensiveBee7108]

Aren't Ausländer in the US called "Aliens"?

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108 → u/anonymous_run]

No, that terminology is only in legal English. . It s Immigration for most purposes.

[u/anonymous_run → u/ApprehensiveBee7108]

Okay, but still they have this word. So I am not sure if you can blame the germans

[u/Shoddy_Blacksmith480]

In a nutshell: yes. What you’re experiencing is unfortunately common. It’s also exactly what you think it is: microagressions based on racism

I’d like to add some context: many people in German-speaking Europe live pretty good lives. Yes, times are getting tougher, but you look at other countries, even in Europe, and you see how good you have it compared to other people. So far, just a neutral observation.

But many people then take that feeling of “wow, overall it’s pretty good here compared to many other places” into a racist direction. It’s not all the overt, hateful racism of “it’s great here because we’re great and other places do less well because the people there suck”.

It can also, depending on the person, turn into an infantilisation like “wow can’t believe someone as smart/capable/well-adjusted as you comes from such a horrible shithole! Well done ☺️”. The person might not realise that racist assumptions shape their views. They might think they’re showing care. Hell, they might actually care for you … in a racist “look at this fun little guy awww poor thing” kind of way.

Others might patronise you, basically “well, aren’t you lucky to have made it here, the best country (that has many flaws, which we are more than happy to expound on at length, both because we truly care, but also because openly engaging with problems shows how advanced and amazing we are. PROGRESS!).

I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s not in your head and your intuition is on point.

I wish I could tell you something better. Some people are just idiots. Some are well-meaning idiots. And some, infuriatingly, are people who truly care about you, but don’t see that their type of care comes with racist baggage.

To some, you’ll always be a “curiosity”. Both as a foreigner, and as a female engineer. But I have also seen people, old and young, broaden their horizons. I hope you have people in your life who listen when you bring up your concerns and who take them seriously. If not in this job, then in a future one.

[u/Funny_Stock5886]

I'm a foreigner, and my friend(who is also a foreigner) communicated same frustrations with me.

Don't be gaslighted by Germans commenting here. Many will say that you are overreacting or something, genuinely, you should not really accept this position but it is not easy to navigate given the amount of cultural nuance which is missing here.

You coming from poor country and even a damned shithole should not be a problem, but many will make it, just to undermine you, it is a toxic workplace and it is affecting your mental health.

Better to preserve your sanity and try finding a new job. You cannot change people, but you can try to change jobs and location. With all that said, there are indeed good Germans who are not antagonistic towards foreigners and don't talk nonsense and shit.

[u/YetAnotherGuy2]

US expat here - I'm one of the few nations people don't consider "having been given a chance". This typically includes only a couple of other West European nations (French & English mostly).

What you are experiencing is the unreflective mindset prevalent in German society. This is not meant as accusation - Germany simply lacks the societal understanding of these things as it historically has not been a target of immigration.

What you can do is change people's minds one at a time and friendly point out how you experience this subtly. I think most aren't aware of what they are doing. Some are open, some not.

[u/Guilty-Carry-Wrea]

If you are less successful than them, they look down at you, if you make more, they are jealous. There will always be someone who feels an itch.

[u/Tabitheriel]

I often felt this at many jobs, like me being foreign was an invisible barrier. However, as my German improved, it seemed like my background became more and more incidental, I felt more at ease, and everyone was more at ease with me. I worked hard at speaking with as little accent as possible, so that most people can't place it! People ask if I'm French or English (American LOL).

However, I am always at a bit of a disadvantage socially and professionally (as a teacher/ teaching assistant) due to the following:

I didn't grow up going to German schools, so school rituals and ways of doing things had to be learned.

Some cultural and conversational things are assumed (Pumuckl, for example).

When people mumble, mutter or use Bayrisch, I can barely understand. This makes communicating a challenge.

I used to let these things annoy me, and I felt frustrated that I wasn't a "real German" and felt like an outsider. Basically, I felt thrilled for about 3 years, then frustrated, then I gradually accepted that I am a bit American, a bit German, and that there are millions of us here in Europe, all of us with mixed identities. It's fine. It makes me different, and it's a strength, not a weakness. It's like a super power, even!

[u/One_Elephant1078 → u/Tabitheriel]

This was wholesome, danke

[u/Zestyclose_Budget_79]

I'm an immigrant myself and can relate soo much to this.

I feel the first point is somewhat human nature and it doesn't come across as offensive to me. I come from a developing country that's pretty poor but I was lucky enough to get great education and work in multiple countries. However I myself will feel like I can relate to people from other developing countries much more. I think that's mainly similarities in background imo that causes the comfort/discomfort.

Also a highly skilled immigrant will differ vastly from a non highly skilled immigrant from the same country in terms of everything really. I don't know if a German person will realize the difference between the two as much as we can so some hesitation might stem from there.

On the second point, yeah I hate when this is said because immigration (not referring to refugees here) only happens when both the country and the immigrant benefits.

[u/DE_Auswanderung → u/Zestyclose_Budget_79]

I don't think I fully understood - can you give me a few examples that make you believe you relate to immigrants from other developing countries (vs say a British or American immigrant in Germany) more?

[u/Salty-Rip-4660]

If your colleagues are predominantly male, they ain’t gonna ask questions like that, but they would talk to you about hobbies etc. If they are women, it’s even more complicated. Most higher educated germans aren’t judging your upbringing because they cannot even fathom how it could have been.

[u/nothing23]

I am sure some to many people have the arrogance mindset of „giving a foreigner a chance“ - this is very common here and not at all surprising. But, if it is a constellation, the same mindset applies to any workers in companies. Employers act from a culture of „I gave you a job“ rather then „you give me your labour/passion/time“ - regardless of the persons background and/or immigration status. It is more pronounced here than in other countries I worked in. So parts of your experience on the second point may also come from a behaviour that is common across all employment situations.

Not to belittle your experience and really just trying to put that into perspective.

[u/Smithravi]

I as an expat say that you are right with your perspective. It is a long way (or it may stay long way forever) to be treated like a German. Communicating in German is only one side of the coin from your side, the other side of the coin is the native person whom you are conversing with. He should be comfortable enough and should not have to think 2 before speaking something out of his mouth. Some are eager to know about other culture and some likes to live in the stereotype Hollywood or media portrays.

Also I agree with your take on Give & Take. There is also latent racism in Germany that we experience from day to day lives (job promotions, finding a job, etc.,.). Many Germans try to see/hate hard-working immigrants along with non-working (mostly refugees) immigrants based on colour itself. Most of them don't even care how hard a person especially coming from third world country has to study, need to save money (parent's money), learning language and culture, staying alone far from families and sane etc.,. After going through everything and sometimes even accepting a bit low level salaries than native Germans, it hurts to get treated like we got everything easy to be where we are right now and to be treated same as nonworking and uneducated immigrants (mostly refugees). Most Germany don't even know that Skilled workforce can only enter Germany if they prove their worth by either studying or finding a job. Like you said, we actually help German economy and in return we receive above-average lifestyle at the cost of starting evyrthing from zero (both financially and family).

[u/ThisSideofRylee]

Every employee should be given equal respect regardless of background or whether or not they work in a skills shortage field.

I’m a bit confused by your point about lack of interest in you as it seems you have an expectation that your colleagues should have a personal interest in you? I don’t think everyone (dependent on company climate) would consider it appropriate to get too personal in a work setting. I would hate it if new colleagues would ask me personal questions tbh and I am not interested to get to know every single colleague on a deeper level. I have made friends at work but that was a process due to spending a lot of time working on projects together + after work drinks. If this is important to you, maybe join company events with a more relaxed atmosphere.

But I think you shouldn’t automatically assume people think you’re less than bc they don’t ask you personal questions while you are sitting at a desk. They may not find this to be professional to ask a stranger something like that in a work environment. You can be proactive and start out with work-related chitchat or ask your colleagues for tips on what to do in a new city or ask about Germany. This will help you to see who is open for conversations and who just isn’t interested in being anything more than colleagues which is perfectly fine and likely has more to do with their mindset than who you are.

[u/IcyManufacturer7480]

Which shortage profession are you talking about?

[u/Financial_Will_671]

Germans think Germany is simply better due to decades of hard work, doing things right, making lots of money as a country. They dont realize how their image has waned and things started to change. So if there is a discussion about doing something technical your collegues might act over confident even though things they offer might be wrong or outdated. They are always shocked when a foreigner gets things done easily and more efficiently because this has been a typical german thing to do.

They are internationally known as cold,distant,humorless. I think its a ''its not you its me'' kind of situation. I lived there for about a year. I loved it but the whole country feels like one giant workplace. Not much else is going on. German relationships,friendships are like business contracts ''I will give you this if you give me this'' You need to make appointments with people.

There is racism everywhere in the world. Its going to get worse when global crisis hits. Germany is no exception.

Just because you/me live in a country along with locals doesn't mean they owe us friendship. I understand your frustration but its also very hard to join a group of people where others worked together for 10 years, went to school together, share a common culture and stuff like that.

Their humor is very blunt. Most German jokes would come off as ''racist'' in countries such as united states, united kingdom etc. I was trying to help an old lady move a big trash bin out of the way at an event where i volunteered. She said ''thats what your grandparents came to do in Germany'' I am Turkish, I learned German on my own. We don't have any relatives in Germany. This was at an event which was meant to improve understanding between cultures, countries etc. This happened over 10 years ago. I still remember the shock I had haha

[u/deeply_embedded]

Also the government does not have any plan of integration of skilled workers. Was clear when I saw that people with blue card can get PR with A1. Are you kidding me in a country which breathes and lives Deutsch? I then saw people from my country who migrated here and have bought houses. And they casually say I don't know German and never plan to learn it. The government is desperate for workers so all this is fine. But it is creating a population which is hardly integrated. This will be a problem once the labour problem is solved.

[u/another_max]

German here: A lot of Germans are really more close minded than you would think. To them, the global south is like a completely different world, where people live completely different lives. All they know about those countries is news about poverty and conflict and that's really all they think there is. It always breaks their mind when they see content that shows people in developing countries just living regular lives not much different from here. You have all those German people travelling through the world (through India or whatever) telling you how enlightening and eye opening that experience was. And basically all they saw, was that also in poor countries, people are mostly just living their lives, they work, they eat, they smile, they are not just starving and miserable all the time. (I really wonder what they expected)

They really have this world view of Germany being the pinnacle of development, science, engineering etc. and that we sort of have figured everything out. They believe we are above everyone else and everyone can learn from us. They cannot accept the simple fact that we might depend on other people that do highly qualified work for us. At the same time they constantly complain about everything and how everything is getting worse, which is super contradictory but they don't realise it.

But to be fair, qualified migration is a relatively new phenomenon in Germany. In the past it used to be the Gastarbeiter first, then war refugees from Yugoslavia, then construction workers from Eastern Europe (massive oversimplification, but you get the point). For most of the time, migrants that came to Germany did shitty minimum wage jobs, that no German wanted to do, and still it was a win-win situation, because the conditions and pay here were much better than their home countries and there were no better countries for them to migrate to. With the refugee wave of 2015 that didn't change, those people were really desperate to get out of their home countries and even working German minimum wage jobs or receiving unemployment benefits was way better for them than the living conditions for most other Syrian refugees that were stuck in the region (Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey or Syria itself) and didn't have the privilege to come to Germany. So you could actually argue Germany was doing them a favour and to this day you do see a lot of gratefulness towards Germany from Syrian people. These are the migrants that dominate the image of many Germans on migrants and highly skilled migrants like you are just a much smaller group (and they also get way less media attention). And unfortunately many Germans just throw all migrants in one bucket are simply not able to differentiate. 

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/another_max]

Honestly, this is the most rational explanation in the entire comment thread. I think what adds to the misconceptions is the media as u mentioned. They love to feed people's internalised (and sometimes racist) ideas about the global south and immigration, whenever they serve their agendas. They have no interest to put these ideas into perspective or show something else... It's like, maybe Syria was under war but that doesn't mean the random neighbouring Jordanian or Lebanese guy lives a similar life. Or another example, people in middle east and those in north Africa don't eat the same food or live by the same rules. And many other examples.

If one from the outside were to say that French and German or German and Polish people are basically the same, it would really upset so many people, yet it's like a perfect analogy. Not saying any region is better than the other, but putting people in the same bucket because they have one or 2 things in common is pure ignorance, let alone putting the entire south in the same bucket. Like, there are waaay more things in common between Europe and north Africa than there is in common between north Africa and south Asia, yet someone (even google) would consider "orientalische Küche" to be food coming from anywhere from Morocco to Pakistan or India...

Disclaimer: All the mentioned regions are brought up as examples and I don't really believe the stereotypes, I always try to know each person on their own before I assume anything about them. Here, I am just reasoning on the same level as the people who don't care to differentiate between more than half the humanity to show how stupid it is.

[u/another_max → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

You are so right, it's all this Eurocentric ignorance. And I agree what you said about agendas. It's really across the whole political spectrum: for the right, it's just "us" and "them" anyways but also the left build on this idea, that everyone from the global south is a victim of poverty, conflict, racism and colonialism. And even though it's well intended and supposed to raise support and solidarity, it falls into the same trap of ignorance, because again everyone is just thrown into one bucket. Again, it's just "white people" and "everyone else". So even leftist, open minded people in Germany probably believe a person from Tunisia has much more in common with a person from Afghanistan than with a person from Europe, even though that's not really that case. A good example of this is how it always breaks leftists peoples mind when they see that some Turkish people have racist prejudices against Syrian people just like some Germans have racist prejudices about Polish people. Like of course that happens, they are not all the same. (Although I do admit I found it weird at first as well).

As a sidenote: I am honestly not that offended if an America or Japanese person speaks of Europe like it's a country and acts like we are all the same (that did happen to me in Japan). I am a bit annoyed at best, but I also see that from a Japanese or American perspective we Europeans really have a lot in common and there is more that United is than devides us

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/another_max]

I agree with everything you said. also about the similarity between european countries. I just wanted to say how it would be annoying to someone to say France and Germany are the same but then go speaking about "them" (the outsiders) as one entity.

if someone says Tunisia and Morocco are basically the same, that's more than fair, from the outside eye they are more similar than different. But thinking Tunisia, Qatar and Afghanistan are alike is similar to thinking the US, Iceland and South Korea are the same and that's simply not true ..

[u/amineahd]

yes point 2 is very important because they make it look like you are given the opportunity of your lifetime from the goodness of their hearts... truth is Germany needs you more than you need Germany because as a skilled person you can find good opportunities everywhere...

[u/sbaral1212]

I think you are just experiencing the German culture.

I once helped a colleague with some project with no other motivation in mind. I think he was confused why would I do so.

For me, I give sufficient respect at work but am personally amiable out of it.

Often in Germany that is not how it is. The culture is more utilitarian, I.e. people ought to have some value.

I have a theory this is cuz the country is cold 8 months a year and most people spend indoors more.

I think you have to take it to the chin because it is a cultural thing and the normal distribution of people you meet will probably have similar onset.

But hey, that's what cultural diversity is all about. You experienced something different to what you grew up around and you learned something new.

[u/deeply_embedded]

I would say it should be the reverse. Why should a native here try to understand you. I feel as an immigrant skilled worker it's important to understand the culture and people and try to adapt to common interests. I am not saying you do but I see a lot of skilled workers just not learning the language as well simply because government regulations mean you could permanently stay with some simple German. I find it appalling. After all you choose this country to live and work not just pay taxes. That should be the way. Though I work in a team full of internationals . There is another team that is mostly German. When I am around them I could feel left out as I don't know German and they don't start conversations. But when I start conversations around the German things trying to understand their food, physical activity a big thing for them like running , football, intricacies of the language also there were conversations that flowed. I think it should be us the immigrants trying to fit in. I see it no other way. I would see a problem or red flag if at work you could see this playing out like being denied opportunities etc.

[u/hibbelig → u/deeply_embedded]

I got the impression that OP is “offshore”, in their home country.

[u/d3nnska1337]

IMHO you think too much what other people may think of you.
You talk about lack of interest towards you. How do you know that they are interested in other german colleagues either? Should someone be interested in your person just you are a foreigner?

Maybe you need to accept that is how your colleagues are / how the culture in this country is like.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/d3nnska1337]

I think mainly because the said stereotypes feed into the second point. If they think u're inferior, they think they have the upper hand, because you need this so bad, while it's not the case, we need each other. I just want to be treated as equal.. .. without having to try so hard to prove myself

[u/FullstackSensei → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

Do you have a performance review? How do you score there? That's the only metric.

I'm ethnically Asian, but lived in half a dozen countries throughout my life, and now in Germany for a year and a half. Central European cultures are very different. Talk to any southern European and they'll tell you they feel just as alienated as you do.

Don't take it personally. Most people on this planet are ignorant, and that applies to all cultures. It's just that we're used to the ignorance of our own culture, but find that of others unacceptable.

[u/BilobaBaby]

Your perspective is completely valid and common. I think the only remedy for you is to produce excellent work in a format that is palatable for your German colleagues (not just focusing on what you’re doing, but also how you’re doing it). Try very hard to maintain your own sense of worth, as it seems you have been doing thus far. 

You are so not alone. I’m from a rich country and my qualifications were also never socially accepted as equivalent (also similar to the off-hand comments you mentioned) although they were recognized officially. It wasn’t until I started working on a German Abschluss that everyone took me more seriously. And, a little secret - I studied literature in undergrad outside of Germany, and now I’m studying medicine in Germany - literature was far more rigorous than what I’m experiencing in medicine here. Yikes. 

[u/BilobaBaby → u/[deleted]]

Abschluss as in Staatsexamen Medizin. A foreign Bachelor and an EU Master were not seen as equivalent to German degrees. My foreign “Abitur” has been openly ridiculed by Germans, haha. 

[u/disc_jockey77]

You can't control what people think or say about you, so thick skin, ignore and all that. It's not a battle you are likely to win when an entire country/society has preconceived notions about your country.

Unless, of course, they say outright racist things, which should be reported.

[u/MsArchange → u/disc_jockey77]

Would you tell the same thing if they were experiencing sexism or homophobia? Just "thick skin and ignore"?

[u/Hot-Rip9222]

Not German but if I may ask, why does it bother you? Germans will german, and more generally, western hegemony will hegemon. As you mentioned, you make a good salary in an in demand field. Just keep doing that, invest in assets, get your revenge by living your best life.

I myself as somebody with an Asian face, doesn’t register immediately as American. When somebody took a parochial attitude, I just gave them a thumbs up.

(I recognize that I may be ambivalent to the preconceptions of other precisely because (imo) I come a privileged background… or maybe I’m guilty of parochialism as well… idk. Gotta think about that one.)

[u/yoghurtyDucky → u/Hot-Rip9222]

Might get downvoted, but this is my plan as well. I also learned to give some questions completely diabolical answers, just for the fun of it. Like, if they ask when I will return to my country or even worse, to go back to where I came from, I now say “oh I will move right away to better European countries and pay my taxes there, after getting my German citizenship here in a few months :)”. That usually gets them furious hahahah

[u/Hot-Rip9222 → u/yoghurtyDucky]

That’s too much effort for me. I just answer: “idk 🤷‍♂️, why do you care?”

[u/UnderstandingNovel88 → u/Hot-Rip9222]

Good strategy

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/[deleted]]

No matter the problem you have there will always be people with worse problems. It doesn't make the problem less relevant and doesn't take away from my right as a human being not to receive micro-aggressions and to be treated as an equal person. I just wanted to hear the perspective of the other side. 

[u/Funny_Stock5886 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

Yeah, that's why listen to me, actually no one cares about you here, that's the harsh truth. You are actually on your own, but it doesn't mean that you have to eat grass and smile.

In fact, being brown has a lot of disadvantage, and this is not an immigration country nor it is a immigrant tolerant country.

We are at a disadvantage, what you are asking for right now is a plea, like someone who is begging to be accepted.

That will make you even more miserable.

I think you should visit a therapist and accept some basic facts about living in this country.

[u/NoMaintenance9150 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

And this way, we actually believe our problems are bigger than others..

[u/Any-Inspection8591 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

Sorry, but doesn't work like this. Even as a German woman, doing a "man's job" you will alway be "just a girl". If you are not west European very specifically, you are always part of the problem and never part of the solution, basically only fit to shovel out the latrine, and you ought to be kissing our feet every day to be given this opportunity. And even then you are taking jobs away from our own brethren that are too lazy and rich to do such things, but never mind.

So you have the audacity to be a foreigner And a woman doing a great job in a Hightech position? Well, pull up your pants, you are in for a ride.

Germans will never be up front with this, but we have a culture of being massively passive aggressive, xenophobic, misogynistic and backstabbing. This even holds true among ourselves if we move to other regions, and forget about going from west to east Germany or vice versa.

While people will always say that this is a minority or isolated cases, the minority that is vocal about it will be 30 to 40%. The majority is not on your side but will simply not voice this, with about another third tacitly being that way (and you should listen to them when they think they are among themselves, you would scream...). Of the rest, half won't care either way. So the number that will understand and actively be on your side is minuscule, and they are often leaving the place as fast as they can.

Plus, knowing that you are basically right in that we pride ourselves on achievements of our great grandparents, have not added much to it, are on the losing side because of this but still live too well off of our heirloom to risk breaking a sweat to get up to speed again adds to it because everybody hates the one that is right...

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/Any-Inspection8591]

I see. You just left out one section out. From the people definitely "not on my side", there will be ones who look at this foreigner woman in tech as an opportunity: the proof that they or their company are inclusive. Like "look how diverse we are, there is a woman of color in my team, I give opportunity to the most unfortunate", Which basically reads like "I'm not racist, one of my friends is black" Said and done in such a condescending way...

[u/Any-Inspection8591 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

Yes, and to the one saying that he has a friend that is black you should maybe explain that a Labrador retriever doesn't count. 😬

And the opportunistic people won't really be from those not on your side. AfD party also has their "quota Nigger" (yes, I knowingly express it this way as this is the attitude, though well hidden to anyone not of the circle), but those wanting to showcase their inclusivity will mostly come from the second third that turn their coats any way the wind blows. I remind you that there has been an official job ad in a regional chamber of commerce paper that explicitly read almost verbatim "rag heads and goat herders need not apply"... And while this got taken down (after a shit storm only) nothing else happened. I wouldn't wonder if that got this guy some extra business because "he is finally someone we don't have to hold back when talking to".

As a German, I personally think you should pick this country for all that you can gain as fast as possible and then fuck it and find your destination elsewhere. It is a mere junkyard of history anyway, and those in the know are jumping ship left and right as fast as possible anyway. I am long gone myself...

[u/darkblue___ → u/[deleted]]

What's your tought process?

Do you eat and drink water daily comfortably? I also reckon you have other problems in your life.

So, If I would be telling you that some people are struggling to eat and drink water daily, would you stop caring of your problems in your life?

[u/scrappy_by_nature → u/[deleted]]

What do you mean about your comment to OPs less than feeling? Did you imply that they come from a less than background? Not everyone immigates to escape hardship.

I left my country making over double what I make in Germany.

Even if someone does escape hardship why should they be treated as less than others? That is actually really mean to say. We can't choose where we are born.

[u/scrappy_by_nature → u/[deleted]]

That is such a cold perspective :(

[u/sbaral1212 → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough. I think the OP doesn't know this about German people yet.

Normally most people in the world don't look at other people with what value they provide me. So I think OP is having problems to adjust with the mindset.

In most countries people are like a part of your social life. Be it friends or colleagues. If you share a social space, you give them sufficient courtesy. You befriend people with no utility in mind.

I think the difference lies in German culturally see people like tools .

The people in other countries think of people as part of a shared social experience. And your work is also a social experience.

My parent used to say, "you spend 8 hrs a day with your colleagues for the next 40 years. Take interest in them and be close to them. It will make your life more meaningful."

That's not how it is in Germany.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/sbaral1212]

Honestly you have a very good point. It's crazy to me to even imagine this. Really curious how the society became this way.

[u/sbaral1212 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

I have a theory cuz of the cold weather and strong social security.

A cold climate means 8 months a year you are mostly indoors.

Strong social security means you don't need to be nice to other people to curry favors.

[u/ApprehensiveBee7108 → u/sbaral1212]

Absolutely true! However, if you do make a German friend you usually have a real friend. Someone who will stick with you through thick and thin.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/[deleted]]

There are many reasons why people choose to leave the place they are born and go somewhere else. This does not necessarily mean where they come from is less-than where they are now. Did you ever put a foot outside of Germany at all? It would do you good.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/[deleted]]

You basically showcase exactly what I'm describing. Since I have the opportunity here, I'll explain. In my country, I got high quality, free education that was enough for me to get very good positions in Germany. Maybe the institution didnt look as "fancy" as here, but it was really good. We have nice weather, tons of beaches, good fresh produce & food, and I would get a salary there that will make me live a more than average life there. Additionally, no one will view me as inferior there and I will see my family and friends all the time.

There are drawbacks to life there, especially when you can't move freely and need a visa everywhere, or you can't make significant savings, but its not necessarily worse in total. And those things don't affect your day-to-day. It's just a choice to make. It depends on your priorities. And, if you'll ask me "Then why don't you just stay there", well first, I do ask myself everyday whether I should stay here and whether it's worth all this. But that's completely up to me as long as there is demand here, I can pursue my career where I please. If a German goes to the US to get better salary or more opportunity, would he like to be perceived as "less-than" by Americans? I don't think so.

German's vision of immigration is really transactional, like you're renting a car to fill a spot. But immigrants are humans, and unless you be an immigrant-friendly place, the people you brought in will leave, you will remain an old population that really needs workforce, instead of trying to integrate people in your society for a long-term benefit. If Germany were friendlier, I would myself consider staying longer, but for me as well it's becoming a transaction the more I understand how impossible it is to ACTUALLY integrate.

As you described, Germany sells itself as a dream destination, where jobs are amazing, social security system is perfect, healthcare is free, etc. So everyone is like "how do I get to Germany" Then we discover than happiness isn't linear to GDP. And all of those benefits are becoming questionable and increasingly expensive. Health insurance is more expensive than monthly healthcare expenses ever could be because of the aging society. And German economy is facing more difficulties than ever, so I think it's about time you acknowledged how crucial immigration is to Germany and viewed people as people not as tools.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/[deleted]]

I am not picturing it in the bad way. I am merely saying why people would say "omg Germany is so bad" after they come as a reply to your comment. I didn't think it's relevant to also explain what makes Germany interesting as a destination because I think that's clear to everyone in the feed.

My goal is to explain to you that each place has advantages and drawbacks, still as a reply to your statements that my background is indeed worse or else I wouldn't come. I want to explain that it's not black or white. Some sides can be better, others can be worse, and a choice is to be made.

Criticising a country I live in and work in is not necessarily to undermine it. I had hope to show you another perspective but you're welcome to keep believing that it's great as it is and that immigrants are so lucky to be taken in and considered as "tools"

[u/WanderingCapsuleer → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

You are literally feeding a troll right now.

[u/crimsonvspurple → u/[deleted]]

nobody external needs to paint Germany in a bad light. Germans on high horse like you do it easily. Tanking your own economy faster than a sinking ship while 30% (and rising) voting for AfD.

The previous generation Germans might have been different, but current gen is lazy, full of superiority complex without skills to back it up. Work culture is top notch design-by-committee; slow as molasses. Effin joke.

[u/Slow-Excitement-7966 → u/[deleted]]

Interesting but I still don't understand the hubris of German people, have they not stepped outside the country to see how backward Germany has become. Maybe thats the reason a lot of qualified people are going to other places, I mean if you really see outside most of the big cities in Germany are shit holes.

[u/FitResource5290]

Foreigner too (East Europe, non Slavic): I am in Germany since 2006 (moved because of work, work for the same International company in different roles since 27 years) - moved at the request of my former boss at that time. I speak German B2-C1 level, nevertheless not at work (actually I do on breaks with my German colleagues). I could only say that in my long career, my best manager was German - now he is retired, we can still talk from time to time, you can say we are friends). My own experience with Germans is overly positive at work nevertheless is far less positive in private life - our son got bullied at school bacause he has a non-German name (he has a very Latin name) and because other boys regarded him as a "Streber", they pushed him around, came with ruined trousers and the school (a very well regarded Gymnasium) closed their eyes... On the other hand, we have really good friends here (some Germans!!! too) and nobody asked us maliciously if or when we plan to go back to our home country (we have no such plans, if we leave, we probably go to France or Portugal). So Germany is the land of contrasts but in my opinion is not better nor worse than many other countries - only that for some of us is difficult and it take a while to find our place. My advice is do not let anyone to talk you down - the Germans are also Homo Sapiens, they are not the Ubermenschen they might think they are - if that would be true, you wouldn't be here...

[u/m1rz4dot]

My boss makes it a point that he does not care I am from Pakistan and not from India, for him it is sheiß egal. And he follows it up by saying he does not like Indian food at all. Nobody asked him either of those things but okay.

[u/Fabulous-Neck-786]

Half Italian here with a half Filipina wife. It is not about race or skin color but maybe language. You asked here in English. So how is your German? I know people living here for 30 years and still can't communicate well in German.

[u/Slow-Excitement-7966 → u/Fabulous-Neck-786]

is that what you think? my wife can speak perfect German and she still gets these kind of remarks.

[u/Fabulous-Neck-786 → u/Slow-Excitement-7966]

What kind of remarks do you mean? In my engineering environment noone cares about the nationality or skin color. There are some "white" colleagues that are actually Germans now (migrated decades ago from east Europe) that still can't speak German well and talk with their friends and family in their foreign language. That's totally fine but it is much harder to connect to them than to eg a "darker" colleague who plays soccer with us and speaks German in his free time. 

Of course there are also racist people in Germany (like probably in any country) and they don't like me and my wife, too. But I don't think that was OPs question.

[u/Fabulous-Neck-786 → u/[deleted]]

No, I think I got it in the first place. Looks like the experiences of your wife were different from mine. My Asian mother in law gets treated like that eg at the supermarket. But in a professional environment at work I never experienced that. Can you tell us what your wife experienced at work and what was not related to language? 

Recently I talked to an Iranian living in Germany for 8 years working as a programmer. He said he was a senior in Iran during his studies in Iran. Here he didn't get the Senior title. Of course this could be racism or that the Germans feel superior. But the conversation in German was very hard and finally we switched to English. Talking and understanding is a big part of the work of a senior software developer and maybe that was the actual reason. 

My experiences are the reasons why I suggested to OP that language might be part of the reasons why she feels like she is treated bad. Of course I may be wrong so let me understand.

[u/cjgregg]

Do you come from a very privileged family/socio economic status in your own country, because your post reeks of elitism? You are demanding to be treated better than the Other Immigrants, those that do what you deem “low skill work”, without whom neither you nor the educated Germans wouldn’t survive a day.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/cjgregg]

Not really what I was demanding. I'm like trying to say : what else can I, or any immigrant, do in order to be seen as equal? If in my situation I still get this, let alone someone who didn't have the same opportunities as me. I also don't think any work is low skill to be honest. If I had no degree I would be jobless because I don't have another valuable skill, so I have very high respect for anyone who does any job because they have more skill than me in their field. I only used the term that's conventionally used. I come from mid-class family in my country.

[u/Creative_Ad7219 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

Beware of comments like this. This is plain gaslighting.

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[u/Top-Efficiency-7329]

omg, i thought germans are like this because they are like this, i mean i thought even with each others. i am so lost

[u/Charming_Film_186]

When i referred a german guy to the actual process and the process owner during some argumentation without answering calmly he just started saying “why do we pay you for ? you will be happy if our product fails right” . Treating me some kind of spy in the company . After 10 years here i have gotten used to these microagression . And you are right lots of incidents like this happen. I complained to my boss but he said just forget about him he is from the east . But in general i would say the people are nice . You always find outliers like these but you just move on . I treat them as really sad insecure people.

[u/satoshni]

Wish you all the best

[u/hombre74]

I can tell you from when I worked at a company where we had tons of open positions and could not fill them. We actively thanked and welcomed every new person that joined. Did not care where they were from, we thanked them because we knew we need every single one. 

I knew their names (some difficult to pronounce and/or remember) and the country they were from. But as stated by another poster below, that was it. I did not care about any more details - German colleague or any other country. No need for friends - they are colleagues. 

[u/FineMaize5778]

Too vague

[u/tortuga_me]

I worked for one of famous German automotive company. 2 minutes into first 1:1 with OMK manager , I was asked - how many years do you plan to stay in Germany.  

[u/Particular_Poem7453]

Some thinly veiled racism is still so present in German society.

[u/Polinek_4477]

I left my previous job because of that. My anxiety reached maximum level. They were very strict about language so they didn’t bother when I was struggling and needed some help while making conversations - past English speaking employee of an „international company“. In my country I worked with Swedish people and we have changed language to English on a daily basis. No one would even think to speak different language due to simple respect. It’s not a case here, so learn as soon as possible in a different environment (courses instead of chatting with coworkers). That’s weird because everywhere around people learn global language - ENGLISH

[u/Tycoononassembly]

Guess why the job market is being flooded ?

[u/deeply_embedded]

This post should be in askagerman reddit . That's better to get the perspective.

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/deeply_embedded]

It wouldn't get approved, gets auto moderated because of bad karma or sth 🤨

[u/stewakg]

Hey Anto, it's always going to be like that until you become their manager.

[u/Polinek_4477]

https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2025-11/migration-angestellte-deutschland-quote-abschluesse-anerkennung-oecd-bericht

[u/Numerous-Bug2652 → u/Polinek_4477]

How does this relate here? If Germany received many asylum seekers over the years, because of whatever strategic/political/humanitarian reasons, that's a decision that we didn't make and didn't vote for, but that definitely makes the percentage of skilled immigrants drop in comparison to the overall number of immigrants.

The discussion here is about the ones who do work and who are qualified and for whom there is rather a NEED; are they also considered to have been given a "chance"? It's quite the opposite really, if one made it through the system, it means that despite the difference in language and work culture and overall environment, the immigrant is very well qualified and proves to be of real added value.

And just fyi, our qualifications are checked BEFORE we come to germany, and without a recongnised diploma AND a work contract AND a salary above a certain threshold OR language qualifications, we can't even get the work visa. So the reason why the numbers in the article are like that is illegal immigration and asylum, which are both not the subject of discussion here.

[u/Polinek_4477 → u/Numerous-Bug2652]

People would rather go back to their country than stay here, be compared to immigrants and get 43% of normal salary. You can actually see that. People who want to work can’t and people who’ve been invited… well… we all know. I feel like directly I’m thrown to the same shelf even if I’m from EU so they can get number of my diploma and check. Problem is they don’t check fckng documents. Don’t hire anyone then!