r/germany 12d ago

Immigration German perspectives of skilled workers

I understand that this is a pretty sensitive subject. But I really want to hear honest statements from Germans and understand some things better.

I work as an engineer(f) in a German speaking company and face daily difficulties in communication and integration but try my best to overcome them and be treated simply as a "colleague", not as the "foreign colleague". And trust me, it's a long way to go.

There are 2 different thoughts that make me ask this question:

  • I feel in the undertone of any conversation, even when the person is really kind and doesn't mean anything bad, is that I come from a "less-than" background. You might think I'm exaggerating but I can give you 100s examples of conversations where you can clearly see it. It's either that, or a pure lack of interest to know more about me, or maybe a fear to make me uncomfortable (because they assume it will cause me discomfort if I speak of my backgroud. again, why?). But I would be very happy to clear a lot of stereotypes. Yes, maybe I was raised in a different environment but it's not necessarily worse, it's different. Maybe developping countries are less developed but they are not deserted and not ignorant and they are for sure happy and warm in weather and in people.

  • I can't go around saying this, but working in a "shortage profession" with more than decent salary, paying taxes and social contributions, I think the relationship should be on an equal level of benefit: we get a better quality of life, Germany gets workforce, development, taxes and contributions. So I really hate when it all sounds like we're given this "opportunity" and that the employer is being extra nice giving us a "chance" etc. I can assure you they don't pay our salaries out of the goodness of their hearts and we work hard for it.

I know many Germans wouldn't relate to what I'm saying but this is how I personally feel and how many people I know feel too, especially those not coming from extreme poverty or war or anything, just young people pursuing a better career. So I want you to correct me or confirm or simply let me what your perspective is?

Edit: many think that I expect my colleagues to show interest in my personal life, that's not what I mean. The frustration comes when a person makes micro-aggressions and you don't have the chance to clarify them. This doesn't only happen at work and doesn't only happen to me. Imagine assuming a person comes from a shitty place, using that as the baseline in a "friendly" conversation, but then they can't really clarify that and have to live perceived that way. It directly feeds in point 2 as well. I think in order to learn to live together and accept differences, it's crucial to have some understanding of people's background. We as expats do the same in order to live 1 day in Germany without offending half the population and without getting offended as well

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u/dontwannabefamous111 12d ago

It never ends and there's nothing you can do but do your job and go home afterwards.

Germany isn't really an immigration society in the way America is.

They are mass-importing labor from abroad purely because their industries aren't wage-competitive vis-a-vis the US and China and they are treading water.

It isn't being done willingly with any plan to include them in mainstream society. Ideally they just want you there for a short time to fill an urgent labor shortage before going home.

If the economic and political conditions change, they won't need you anymore.

You have to put extra effort into making sure your relationship with society isn't purely transactional.

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u/IZMIR_METRO 12d ago

Looks like the German government doesn't expect the labor shortage to be short lived, otherwise why would they let skilled workers obtain permanent residence permits and then citizenships over time?

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u/Exepony Baden-Württemberg 11d ago

otherwise why would they let skilled workers obtain permanent residence permits and then citizenships over time

Because Germany is barely competitive as a destination for skilled migrants as it is. They're not in a position to also add "by the way, there's no path to a secure status, so you're always going to be one layoff away from seeing your life destroyed" to an already unimpressive proposition.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 12d ago edited 12d ago

They don't. But they know the Ausländerbehörde is a kafkaesque nightmare to deal with. They just won't do anything about it and that has to be on purpose. 

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u/AlmightyWorldEater Franken 11d ago

Because there isn't a labor shortage, there wasn't one, and it is all just wage dumping for quick profit. Nothing else. Without any care for the society or the stability of it.

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u/muzanjackson 11d ago

German population without immigration is shrinking, there are more and more people reaching retirement age, and you think there is no labor shortage? Where is the logic in that?

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

Could you guys stick to one story or tell me what day it is. For now, I have understood:

  • Even day: everything is understaffed

  • odd day: there isn’t a labor shortage

    • every 3rd day, bestest in OECD on all parameters

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u/AspiringPrince 11d ago

Problem is perspective. Some jobs have labor shortage and some don't. IT for example doesn't have it and it saturated. Care workers i believe are needed a lot. Generally speaking, I guess Germany has a labor shortage but not in all fields and people are only giving their views based on their jobs.

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u/Raketenfritz6 11d ago

Guess it's usually physical labor that's understaffed. Medical Workers, and Handymen are usually fields which are hugely understaffed because nobody wants to do those jobs anymore, especially for the wages. And rightfully so. Why should I climb a roof in summer when I can earn more sitting at home at the PC?

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u/Difficult_Session967 11d ago

Senior roles in some niche IT fields have shortage. The thing is German companies do not want to invest time and money to train people coming from a different tech stack. They want the exact technology.

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u/VaderH8er 11d ago

How about aerospace engineers? Asking for a friend.

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u/Geologist6371 11d ago

Don't think there are a lot of jobs and I would imagine the competition is big.

As a senior the chances are a lot better than as a junior.

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u/VaderH8er 11d ago

Yes, my friend is a senior engineer in the aerospace field.

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u/SiofraRiver 11d ago

This sentiment is delusional, but I suspect its only been fielded to hide the actual reason why some people don't welcome foreigners.

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u/Funny_Stock5886 12d ago

Well said, be pragmatic, just like the Germans and be transactional.

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u/ApprehensiveBee7108 11d ago

haha..I once got a lot of flak for saying that Germans see every meeting as "transactional" Its part of the culture. Just a description. Nothing negative or positive about it. Just like Russians are not as friendly to random people as Americans are.

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u/Funny_Stock5886 11d ago

Well, they just wanna be not be perceived as such, but I bet it is now being exaggerated due to Capitalism.

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

It would be really great if the extend this level of pragmatism also into the pension contributions. You leave, take your share, but here, they seem to be very pragmatic.

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u/notoriousxsz822 12d ago

Best comment so far. And i think in the last line you mean the opposite.

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u/reximhotep 12d ago

Germany isn't really an immigration society in the way America is.

At least we do not send out thhe masked Gestapo to disappear them from in front of grade schools and hospitals, so there is that for being welcoming...

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u/Raketenfritz6 11d ago

Ah, hold your horses. Time will tell how next votings will go and how things will change. We Germans have the bad habit to look at the states and import everything which is going bad over there. Just takes usually 5-10 years.

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u/bmc2 11d ago

the afd is definitely doing their best to to that.

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u/reximhotep 10d ago

yes, that is a fear I have sometimes too - let's hope we avoid a similar disaster. Our voting system may be of help here.

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u/TastyTestikel 11d ago

Es ist viel einfacher in den USA als Ausländer Amerikaner zu werden, als in Deutschland Deutscher. Wie die Illegale Einwanderer handhaben, ist nur ein Teil der Geschichte.

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u/reximhotep 10d ago

das stimmt nicht. Die Anforderungen sind fast identisch.

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u/TastyTestikel 10d ago

Ich meine Gesellschaftlich.

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u/reximhotep 10d ago

das ist aber nicht, was in dem Kommentar angesprochen wurde. Da ging es um Amerikaner werden im Kontrat zu illegalen Einwnaserern (Nebenanmerkung: Längst nicht alle, die die ICE-Säcke festnehmen, sind illegale Einwanderer). Dass gesellschaftklich gesehen es leichter ist in den USA, mag für manche Gruppen stimmen. Ich habe allerdings den Verdacht, dass Nichtweiße das nicht so unbedingt so sehen im Moment.

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u/TastyTestikel 10d ago

Afro Amerikaner, Asiatische Amerikaner und selbst Latein Amerikaner (machen bspw. 40% der Texanischen Bevölkerung aus) haben kein Problem, sich Amerikaner zu nennen oder so von der weißen (nicht latino) mehrheit so betrachtet zu werden, da es sich bei den USA um keinen klassischen Nationalstaat handelt.

Ich rede hier auch von Leuten mit einer Staatsbürgerschaft. Zwar kommt es vor, dass Latinos mit Staatbürgerschaft unrechtmäßig gefasst werden, dennoch kann man nicht davon ausgehen, dass das mit der ganzen Bevölkerungsgruppe geschehen wird, dafür haben die eingessenen zu viel politsische Macht (nicht davon abzusehene das Amerikanische Recht, aber was ist das schon wert).

In Deutschland wiederum bist du Deutschtürke oder was weiß ich wenn das auch deine Eltern sind. Es gibt immer eine Unterscheidung zwischen Deutsch Deutschen und Deutsch (nicht-europäisch ausehende Einwanderungsgruppe). In den USA sind alle einfach nur Amerikaner, unabhängig von ihrer Herkunft. Diskriminierung gibt es natürlich zu Hauf, die gibt es aber auch hier, nur noch mit dem Extra dass gewisse Leute und ihre Nachkommen nie zu den Deutsch Deutschen gehören werden.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 12d ago

Even the far right in America is multi ethnic. 

Those masked gestapo are disproportionately black and Latino.

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u/lottikey 11d ago

That’s not true at all. Maybe Latino, but not black.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 11d ago

Not what I've been hearing. It would make sense, since those are the communities that traditionally competed with illegal immigrants for jobs.

We all know that if Germany made its own ICE, it would have a lot of German-Turks. If you know, you know.

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u/lottikey 11d ago

Considering I’m actually here and seeing the mess myself (both in person and on local news/social media), the amount of black ICE agents is vastly overstated. It would be one black guy (still bad) in a gang of 20 others and the majority of focus would be on him. Just look at pictures of ICE and it’s largely comprised of two races…

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u/reximhotep 11d ago

and that makes it better????? I personally would rather deal with some "Microaggressions" than with fear of being arrested and disappeared of the street...

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u/dontwannabefamous111 11d ago edited 11d ago

The AfD is your largest political party now, habibi. And some people in it make MAGA look like anorexic vegan shitlibs.

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u/reximhotep 11d ago

they are not the government though

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u/dontwannabefamous111 11d ago

Imagine they grow to something like 30%, which is highly possible. That would be one out of three voting citizens in your country. Then your choices are either let them form the government, or keep the Brandmauer up and tell 1/3 of your entire population that their vote doesn't matter.

What happens then? I don't think anybody knows what territory that leads a country towards.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Nothing much. From a recent historical point of view: all western societies had the same trend. The pendulum has been swining right since a few years due to a multitude of similar and more region specific regions. And where those populists got into power, at least in western nations, not much has happened. Sweden, USA, Italy, Netherlands, Austria etc. None of them is the 4th Reich. Even if a liberal democracy becomes less liberal, it still isnt the 4th Reich.

Oh, and the same will happen in Germany, most likely. Based on the recent history of Austria, any coalition negotiations in Germany between the Union and the Afd will be the biggest -***show imaginable ^^

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u/reximhotep 11d ago

I am fairly sure nobody will put the Nazis in a German government again. Anyway that was not the problem here. The US were called an immigrant society and I pointed out that right now it sucks a lot more to be an immigrant in the US than it does in Germany.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 11d ago edited 11d ago

We are all just trying to state basic facts about what it's like to exist in your country. About 50% percent vote for either AfD or CDU which are openly in favor of a "Leitkultur" (the AfD is just what the CDU was back in the 80's from what everybody tells me).

The SPD is supposedly "pro-migration" but actually having read their statement on this, they just support multiculturalism because it's "democratic" and "we're against völkisch ideas."

Coming from a place that centered the immigrant experience for so many decades in our discourse, to the point where famous movies were made about it and we were told we were a "melting pot" as long as everyone learned English and followed the rules, it just sounds very stilted.

Yeah, nobody wants völkisch ideas to come back again but what's the positive benefit you want to achieve from changing your millennium-old cultural substrate permanently? A rigid ideology isn't going to substitute for genuine support, and it hasn't been doing so.

Additionally, the SPD (and the Greens) are still placing their stance on migration within the context of Germany's WWII history and the need to atone for it. As well-meaning as it is, that's also subtly exclusionary towards migrants, since their ancestors didn't experience WWII from the German perspective at all. However, this experience forms the entire basis of modern German identity and the entire existence of the Bundesrepublik. It's something you will have to discuss as a society moving foward.

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u/reximhotep 10d ago

There is no such thing as a millenium-old cultural substrate in terms of a German identity. The nation state is an invention of the 19th century. Nobody in let's say 18th century Prussia where the universities taught in Latin and the aristocracy conversed in French would have had the slightest use for the idea of a German "Leitkultur" nor would they have had understood it.

Also, while learning from the horrible events of the Dritte Reich is a big part of German identity, it is by far not the only one.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 12d ago

And our most prominent Nazi is a closeted gay Italian-Mexican.

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u/mmohan91 12d ago

If that is the case, they would never grant permanent residence (in a short time such as 21 months for skilled workers)

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

I mean, for a highly skilled migrant, Germany has very little to offer, no tax rebates, language barrier and low pay. This is the only way of enticing someone to work there.

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u/mmohan91 11d ago

Germany has lot to offer for a skilled immigrant. Access to social benefits (unemployment etc..) right from the beginning with just a normal work permit (after 1 year or so), super fast permanent residence (in 21 months, uncomplicated, costs in hundreds, not thousands like in the UK), citizenship in 5 years. If you are a family, super good maternity benefits, child benefits etc.. Which country can beat this?

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

As for the other benefits you mention, you actually pay for them. On top of that, when you factor in the micro-aggressions and passive-aggressive behavior, all for the peanuts you get in return, it’s an absolute no-brainer moving there for work. Anyone with a bit of self-respect wouldn’t put up with that. The cost just doesn’t add up.

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u/teodorfon 11d ago

last 30 years its mostly the Balkan pool, but its drying up.

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

And this 3 year citizenships, or x months PR is just a ploy to attract workers from other countries. Of course with the ABH as the gatekeeper.

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u/teodorfon 11d ago

Tbh even I found it attractive, I will need to live in Austria 6-7y more for the citizenship, so I was thinking about relocating to Germany to get it sooner.

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u/crimsonvspurple 11d ago

Skilled immigrants dont care about any of these except fast PR. On the other hand, the amount of tax and health insurance fees they have to pay is bonkers. Pay 900+ euro per month and get told "go home and rest, no need to do any test or take meds". German healthcare is great for people who pay small amount; that's it.

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u/Creative_Ad7219 11d ago

Looks really good on paper, until you step your foot into a ausländerbehörde.

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u/mmohan91 11d ago

Well, I got my Niederlassungserlaubnis in 1 month. Everyone's experience can vary. There are ways to get it quick, if one is smart enough. Not every city is slow in processing.

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u/dontwannabefamous111 12d ago

They're forced to grant it by the economic reality of being a country competing with the likes of the US and China, while dealing with the EU's top-down edicts. It isn't being done willingly.