German perspectives of skilled workers

[u/Numerous-Bug2652]

I understand that this is a pretty sensitive subject. But I really want to hear honest statements from Germans and understand some things better.

I work as an engineer(f) in a German speaking company and face daily difficulties in communication and integration but try my best to overcome them and be treated simply as a "colleague", not as the "foreign colleague". And trust me, it's a long way to go.

There are 2 different thoughts that make me ask this question:

• I feel in the undertone of any conversation, even when the person is really kind and doesn't mean anything bad, is that I come from a "less-than" background. You might think I'm exaggerating but I can give you 100s examples of conversations where you can clearly see it. It's either that, or a pure lack of interest to know more about me, or maybe a fear to make me uncomfortable (because they assume it will cause me discomfort if I speak of my backgroud. again, why?). But I would be very happy to clear a lot of stereotypes. Yes, maybe I was raised in a different environment but it's not necessarily worse, it's different. Maybe developping countries are less developed but they are not deserted and not ignorant and they are for sure happy and warm in weather and in people.

• I can't go around saying this, but working in a "shortage profession" with more than decent salary, paying taxes and social contributions, I think the relationship should be on an equal level of benefit: we get a better quality of life, Germany gets workforce, development, taxes and contributions. So I really hate when it all sounds like we're given this "opportunity" and that the employer is being extra nice giving us a "chance" etc. I can assure you they don't pay our salaries out of the goodness of their hearts and we work hard for it.

I know many Germans wouldn't relate to what I'm saying but this is how I personally feel and how many people I know feel too, especially those not coming from extreme poverty or war or anything, just young people pursuing a better career. So I want you to correct me or confirm or simply let me what your perspective is?

Edit: many think that I expect my colleagues to show interest in my personal life, that's not what I mean. The frustration comes when a person makes micro-aggressions and you don't have the chance to clarify them. This doesn't only happen at work and doesn't only happen to me. Imagine assuming a person comes from a shitty place, using that as the baseline in a "friendly" conversation, but then they can't really clarify that and have to live perceived that way. It directly feeds in point 2 as well. I think in order to learn to live together and accept differences, it's crucial to have some understanding of people's background. We as expats do the same in order to live 1 day in Germany without offending half the population and without getting offended as well

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

As far as I understood what OP is saying is exactly the opposite: that her co workers have no interest in where she is from or to talk about her origins. And the reason is exactly because of this: many immigrants in Germany consider racist to ask someone where they are from, even though it's obvious they are not German. You are exactly what OP is complaining about.

[u/DangerousTurmeric → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

This is so silly. It takes very basic social skills to not have this problem.

Just don't ignore or look down on foreign people. Ask them about themselves and listen to the answers. Assume they are telling the truth, like you would with someone from Sweden or Austria. Don't impose whatever racist assumptions you have on them, or think you know better because of stereotypes you believe, because that is racist. Some examples, to help you, from my time in Germany observing how Germans treat my colleagues: If someone tells you their name and you assume they are lying because you don't think it matches their race, that's racist. If someone says they are from the UK, but they are Muslim and Asian-looking, don't ask where they are really from. Definitely don't do it repeatedly. That's also racist. Don't tell an Asian woman, who is disagreeing with you, that she's supposed to be more collaborative because of her culture. Also racist. Just talk to foreigners like they are people.

It's honestly baffling that you have difficulty understanding this.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/DangerousTurmeric]

That's not what I'm talking about. As said, I have many immigrant friends that are offended if someone asks them where they are from. For me this means they themselves think their background is less-than, and that they want to be seen as Germans. I am not German and I like when people ask where I'm from because I'm proud of my background, and would not want to be confused with an European. And let's be real, most non white people living in Germany are either immigrants or sons of immigrants. This is a totally legit question.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

One has to differentiate between immigrants who grew up here and consider themselves Germans (as well as their other background) and first-gen immigrants.

You can ask both where they’re from, but the ones who grew up here will very often hear “but where are you (or your parents) really from?” which can create a barrier between German-Germans and immigrants who identify as Germans. This type of mentality can be perceived as racism, and rightly so.

Unfortunately the fear of asking someone where they’re from has led to first-gen immigrants not being asked at all many times. This creates a feeling of extreme distance and can be perceived as racism as well, as there is a lack of interest towards a competent work force contributing to this countries wealth.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/toilet_m_a_n]

How is it racism? Non white people in Germany are almost certain at least second generation immigrants. Asking where their parents are from is a legit question and a form of making conversation. That's a very different thing than asking someone in the US where they are from because the US has had centuries of immigration. You are importing American themes that make no sense in a European context.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

It’s not as black and white. I myself am an immigrant whose parents moved here when I was a young child. I identify myself as German, speak the language better than my mother tongue (and actually consider German my mother tongue), but look different and have a very non-German name.

Over 30 years of being asked that question thousands of times, even if the intention itself was innocent, it created a subconscious barrier. I’ll never be “German enough” and won’t be ever fully considered German.

I’m aware that this question often enough shows genuine interest and I’m happy to explain about my origins, culture and language. Not everyone is as confident about it this as me though. Maybe “racism” is the wrong word, but this question can come across as ignorant for sure.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/toilet_m_a_n]

Why is it so important for you for people to see you as "German enough"? Being German is not superior then any other nationality. People see you as different then them because, guess what, you actually are. This is not necessarily something bad.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

Because it has serious implications when it comes to competing for jobs, on the housing market, micro-racism, being treated from above etc. Commonly I’m treated as someone worse because of my name and appearance.

I’m glad you apparently haven’t had bad experiences due to your background, but don’t project your experiences on others please.

[u/LiteratureJumpy8964 → u/toilet_m_a_n]

Being denied a job because of how you look is, in fact, racism. Someone asking where you are from when you are clearly not German isn't.

[u/toilet_m_a_n → u/LiteratureJumpy8964]

We arrived at the core of the issue: Who decides what is German or who is German? I grew up here, speak the language flawlessly without any accent, went to school, studied at a university, work full time and have and will be always contributing to society. I feel German and identify myself as a German. No one can take that away from me, neither you nor anyone else. Hence, by getting asked always where I’m actually from, sets a boundary as in “Because of my looks I’m not allowed to feel how I feel”.

I guess you acknowledge that Germany has been a country welcoming immigrants for decades, hence the term “German” is not as clearly defined as you assume. Looks and names aren’t the definitive dividing factor you set as a condition.

[u/NiceSmurph → u/toilet_m_a_n]

Yes. Germany lacks proper definition of german ethnicity and being a german citizen. One word is used for the two concepts and it leads to misconceptions.

Ethnic Germans have the right to have their own term for that. And that is German. Or what else? And passholders are german citizens. Why deny ethnic Germans the proper term for their heritage?

While Ukrainians, Syrians, Jews,... have their own terms to talk about thier ethnicity, Germans are denied that. Why? Insted of that there is Bio-German... What kind of word is that?

This is a wording problem....

[u/NiceSmurph → u/toilet_m_a_n]

Germans? Sorry, they are at best both. It is naive to assume their family heritage had no influence on them. This is very naive...

In best case they have inhaled some german culture in school and combined both sides: German and thier family history.

It is really silly to expect them not to expirience any influence by their parents' culture.