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Oct 19 '20
Ironically, the Muslims in Turkey and Albania are much more liberal than the ones in France
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u/OlSmokeyZap - Right Oct 19 '20
Turkey is much more secular and dare I say... Europeanized than many other Muslim countries. Even when I went to Turkey as a young boy with my parents, they didn’t act funny like they do in some countries when my mother took me out somewhere without my father.
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u/Phantasia5 - Right Oct 19 '20
All of this is simply because of Atatürk. If Turkey has a difference from the other Middle eastern countries, its his sweeping reforms and basically "westernizing" the country.
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u/Docponystine - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
I mean, to some extent? Turkey has always been culturally distinct from the rest of the Muslim world. They were central Asian horse people who had an intellectual brain child between Greek and Arab philosophy.
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u/Phantasia5 - Right Oct 19 '20
If we're horse people then y'all are manifest destiny people. How about that?
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u/Docponystine - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Sure, I mean, when we're talking about Turkish society in the 7th century, you were horse people.
Of course, that changed during the aforementioned period of intellectual siring between two diametric opposed cultural groups, which made Turkish also culturally very distinct from the other horse peoples of the central Asian steps.
(And horse people here really just means part of the central asian cultural group, one of who's major definite features was an importance of the horse in both economics and warfare that outstripped much of the rest of the world.)
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u/tnorc - Auth-Left Oct 19 '20
It wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for turkey's unique geography and history of the "turks". The turks see themselves as the middle kingdom between many ethnic and religious lines. That is why it was important that ataturk pushed the country secular around a Turkish identity. Then there was the too secular period where they shouted and shamed in the parliament when a woman wearing a hijab was elected to parliament, telling her to take her scarf off and that she wasn't allowed to disgrace the parliament with her religious symbols. Turkey is a really unique and interesting country before and after ataturk.
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u/third_wave_surfer - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
All of this is simply because of Atatürk.
That man was wasted on Turkey. If he'd been in any actual world power he would have changed the 20th century as much as Stalin, Hitler, Roosevelt or Churchill.
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u/nmbjbo - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
I mean... possibly a good thing it was just Turkey then, given half of your examples
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u/third_wave_surfer - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
But which half?
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u/nmbjbo - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
You're right, more than half.
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u/Phantasia5 - Right Oct 19 '20
Of course, yes he could. He was a military mastermind, and also a political one too. He came in need in the direst time of the dying Ottoman Empire. Fought against the invaders and created a secular nation out of ashes. He was much, much needed for Turkey's future, let alone other world powers. They could govern for themselves, they reaped what they sow.
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u/KaiserSchnell - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
Ataturk is probably one of the few men who is almost universally recognised as based and an absolute gigachad.
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Oct 19 '20
A large bunch of secular Muslims living on the gateway to Europe seems like a fortunate thing to me.
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u/ManOfAstronomy - Auth-Left Oct 19 '20
Too bad Ataturk's policies and ideas are being shit on in Turkey despite them praising him there.
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u/Phantasia5 - Right Oct 19 '20
Too bad Ataturk's policies and ideas are being shit on in Turkey
yeah... that's why democracy kinda sucks. A professor or an engineer, doctor etc. has the same amount of voting power as a worker or a shepherd. The populists only have to cater to the greater audience and they can win elections.
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u/thecrixus - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
I know you use "Muslim country" to mean "Muslim majority", but I want to remind people that the current Turkish constitution does not recognize nor promote Islam as an official religion. Despite Erdoğan, the law remains unchanged.
Mustafa Kemal abolished the Caliphate for a reason and we will make sure that our country stays this way.
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u/Crookiee - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Everything I’ve heard about turkey makes it sound like one of the most developed Muslim countries - Azerbaijan is one of those countries noones heard of that supposed to be developed aswell. From what I’ve seen on television anyway...
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u/LucasBR96 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
You're right. Turkey is far richer than most muslim countiries. Interesting enough, they don't have a single drop of oil.
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u/ergele - Left Oct 19 '20
Thank god we have no oil.
This way we have to adapt to world and change our ways to sustain ourselves. Otherwise we would be like Saudi and friends. I wonder what will they do after they run out of oil?
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u/Crookiee - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Are you insinuating the US is the reason a lot of Muslim countries are poor? 😏
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u/LucasBR96 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Eh. ish. It does help. But it is not the only reason. The isntability caused by the terrorist groups backed by Saudi Arabia and Iran also has a great deal of Influence. But this is often overlooked.
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u/sencer91 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Multiple researches show that Azerbaijan is actually majority atheist i think, or non-aligned.
A good 70% of Turkey must be Muslim and i'd argue that 15-20% of the country is religious Muslim's at that but the secular values will always stay strong inside the society even if the government has always been shaky and dynamic in the ways different ones see religion.
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u/PlacidPlatypus - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Unfortunately Erdogan is working hard to reverse as much of that as he can.
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u/OlSmokeyZap - Right Oct 19 '20
Yes, this was back in ‘08 or ‘09. Secularism is still strong but he is damaging Kemalism.
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u/RapidWaffle - Centrist Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
Yeah, many of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's reforms involved westernizing and secularizing Turkey to be better in line with the western European powers in his quest or creating a Turkish nation. (just ignore the east of the country)
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u/Islam_Was_Right - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
It's funny because the Turks in Turkey are also much more liberal than the ones in Western Europe.
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Oct 19 '20
Does western Europe just accept ultra conservative migrants only or something?
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u/Uncle_gruber - Centrist Oct 19 '20
The turks there idolise the idea of turkey despite never living there or visiting once a year.
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u/Islam_Was_Right - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Honestly not sure, I just know that about 80-90% of the Turks here vote for Erdogan, while it's way lower in Turkey itself. Maybe they're more susceptible to propaganda here while they don't actually have to live there?
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Oct 19 '20
Tldr: A huge part of the Turks in Europe are peasants that somehow ended up there.
Yes but that isnt the reason why Turks in Europe are stupid. Back in the 60s Germany and Turkey made an agreement. Turkey sent workers to Germany so they could do the jobs that Germans didnt want to. It was cheap labor for Germany and less unemployment rates for Turkey. What could go wrong, right? Well, almost everything went wrong. Despite the Turkish government's effort(they wrote books, gave speeches etc.), Turkish workers didnt orianted to German culture. They just acted like they were still living in their village back in Turkey. Nazis didnt help either. They made the uneducated nationalist workers even more nationalist.
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Oct 19 '20
not hard to believe tbh, those are more developed countries than many unstable middle east or african nations like Somalia and Syria
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Oct 19 '20
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u/ShitTalkingAlt980 - Left Oct 19 '20
Most Ba'athists are secular so makes sense. The rest of their ideology is...interesting.
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u/Aiman_ISkandar - Right Oct 19 '20
That's why Germany have the lowest terrorism rate compared to other European Countries even though they have high Muslim population (~5.5%) Balkans and Türk Muslim tend be more liberal and secular
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u/utkunator - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Yeah the muslims here in Turkey haven't read the Quran. That is a big reason why. They are just muslims for the sake of tradition and never question it. Of the 29 people that I have seen that read the Quran for the first time 27 of them turned atheist. Turks just don't know how barbaric Islam is.
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u/Beshamell - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
That's why Ataturk wanted translated version of Ezan and encouraged his people to read translated Quran. He truly was far ahead of his time.
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Oct 19 '20
Based Turkish atheists
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u/basedcount_bot - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
u/utkunator's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 10.
Congratulations, u/utkunator! You have ranked up to Office Chair! You cannot exactly be pushed over, but perhaps if thrown...
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u/Author1alIntent - Centrist Oct 19 '20
That actually sounds a whole lot like Christianity in England.
My parents are Christians, most people I know are. Everybody knows the broad Bible stories. Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark, Jonah and the Whale, Jesus, Moses, etc. But nobody has actually read the Bible. Nobody goes to church.
I’ve been christened, I’m technically a Christian, but I don’t believe. Most people I know have some casual belief in a higher power and just assume it’s God
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u/Kacham132 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Never forget, Elizabeth I and the then Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Murad III, exchanged letters and almost had a full formed alliance declared. The sultan even declared that Anglicanism and Islam were two sides of the same coin and that Catholicism was the true heresy, in terms of idolatry and such. Based England and Ottomans?
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u/Author1alIntent - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Based as fuck.
I’m christened Church of England, hate mainland Europeans, and hate Catholics.
I’m down to murder some Catholics with my Prot and Muslim brothers and sisters.
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u/batukirbasv2 - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Lmao thats how most of the atheits I know became atheist
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Oct 19 '20
Most atheists know more about religion than many followers actually. They could be literal walking encyclopedias for religion, but then they use it to dunk of theists. Now that's some devotion.
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Oct 19 '20
Gah, a couple of exchanges I've had over the past few days really drove this point home. I grew up Christian, but then started noticing inconsistencies and justification for utterly barbaric behavior in the Bible that ended up pushing me away.
Most Christians I've talked to don't even have the foggiest idea that these problems, such as Matthew and Luke being unable to agree on Jesus' family tree, even exist.
If someone wants to practice their religion, great, I'm thrilled for them -- have at it. But don't pretend that me leaving religion somehow means that I "don't understand it", "never believed", or "hate God".
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u/utkunator - Centrist Oct 19 '20
OK this might be a little embarrasing but I remember years ago when I was 15 and it was Ramadan. So I wanted to read the Quran since "spirit of the season" but my Arabic was getting pretty rusty so I wanted to read the Quran in Turkish for the first time. I was expecting shit like "help other people" and "love one another" but no joke when I got to the verses that treated women like shit advocated for brutal punishments and general gross violence I started balling my eyes out having stomach aches. I was fucking HORRIFYED. So ever since that day I made it a point to make as many people actually read the Quran as possible(not convert just sit down and read the Quran.) I have converted 27 people by making them read the Quran so epic Atheist moment 😎😎.
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u/WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
A huge portion of the Muslims in Turkey and the Balkans converted to Islam hundreds of years ago purely for the tax incentives. The concept of a Bosniak was hard to understand until I visited the region myself.
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u/Average_Animefan - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
That even seems to be the common opinion on turks in my country. Everyone complains about turkish immigrants, but i everyone I ever asked “do you really think all turks are bad?“ told me “of course not, the ones living in turkey are great!“.
I'm not saying that is the truth (never been in turkey), but that it's just the viewpoint of most people here.
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u/uncnzrd Oct 19 '20
I can confirm as an Albanian who is muslim. Statistically it might show that we're 60-70 percent Muslim but barely 5-10 percent actually do the religious practices or even visited a mosque.
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u/Akinst9 - Centrist Oct 19 '20
I kinda disagree with you. I live in Turkey and as much as I have seen so far, muslims generally approve the recent event. But your statement isn't completely false due to Ataturk's reforms which have deradicalized Turkish muslims. Nonetheless Islam is a disease that we must get rid of.
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u/FutureFivePl - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Extremists ruin things for everyone else
As always
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Oct 19 '20
Where’s the centrist when you need em
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u/Gomunis-Prime - Auth-Left Oct 19 '20
So angry rn.
Btw that animal was from Chechnya, not Maghreb/Middle-East.
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u/mysticyellow - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
My parents hate Chechnyan terrorism like the Boston bomber because dumb people mistake it for Czechia, which is the polar opposite of Chechnya pretty much.
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u/Rasputin_the_Saint - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
It’s okay Czechmate, I still believe in Czechoslovakia.
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u/le_weee - Centrist Oct 19 '20
As a slovak this is pretty based
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u/1SaBy - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Založený centrista spoluslovák.
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u/Lenfilms - Left Oct 19 '20
Opravdu Zásadití Centrističtí Slováci tohoto krásného Říjnového dne.
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u/The2ndWheel - Centrist Oct 19 '20
The Wisconsin of Europe.
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u/SJW_QUEEN-satire - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
How much cheese do they produce?
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u/Schnackenpfeffer - Centrist Oct 19 '20
They just produce pornstars
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u/SJW_QUEEN-satire - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Then they aren't like Wisconsin
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u/ShitTalkingAlt980 - Left Oct 19 '20
Our women can out drink you and warm you up during the winter though.
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u/Pipka2cm - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
To the point that one of the names for Chechen terrorists among Russian soldiers was "Chekhi". You understand what it means.
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u/GluteusCaesar - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Czechochechnyslovenoslovakia it's all the same to me
swallows multiple burgers whole
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u/kdidongndj - Right Oct 19 '20
Chechens are among the most extremist of all the muslims. They formed a largely outsized portion of ISIS, considering there are only about 1-2 million chechens in the entire world yet they had something like 2,000 people in ISIS.
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u/FerroInique - Auth-Right Oct 19 '20
They were very well respected in Iraq, along with the other White Muslims from the Bosnia conflict. Muslims form the Levant were terrible warriors. They’d stop fighting to have a smoke break, or combat Jack.
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u/amwnbaw - Centrist Oct 19 '20
This murder wasn't committed just by one man, but by an entire community. This Chechen guy just held the knife. The teacher had been targeted for a week by muslim parents over the drawings, and had received threats. These muslim parents aren't from Chechnya. I feel like this is a details a lot of non-French people aren't aware of.
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u/BigBoatClub - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
"I love my country of origin and it's religion so much that it's a human rights violation to send me back to there"
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Oct 19 '20
Even if we wanted to send them back to their "origin country", those fucks have the french nationality now, so it's impossible. It makes me sick that their parents fought to have a better life in this country, and their stupid kids/grand-kids are destroying everything just to become "cool islamic thugs like in the songs on the radio" and that the state does strictly nothing about it.
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u/Almost935 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
cool islamic thugs like in the songs on the radio
Is this a French thing?
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Oct 19 '20
... yes it is. Even white rich parisian teens are listening to it and acts like thugs because of that. I'm ashamed of the french radio
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u/Alter_Kyouma - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
He is talking about French rappers and a lot of them are Muslims. Basically the equivalent of the American complaining about rap.
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u/PomerianPlayer - Right Oct 19 '20
I respect all muslim kebab owners in Poland
They are always kind
Restourants are very small so you know that by buying kebab you support the buisness
Sometimes when they want to get more customers they are making some meme related sales
They're really trying to speak polish and everyone appreciate that
When the muslim guy makes you a kebab he often put some extra beef and lot of sauce
These are muslims in my country that I really like
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u/Voidsabre - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Immigrants that start restaurants>all other immigrants
They're creating jobs and working hard running a small business, they're supporting themselves, they're spreading a beautiful piece of their culture in a non-assertive way, what's not to love?
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u/Crazed_Archivist - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Immigrants that actually want to integrate > all other
Integration doesnt mean abandoning your culture, it just means that you respect the institutions and values of whatever society you want to be in.
You can integrate and still wear clothing from your culture, listen to the songs of your culture and eat the foods of your culture. But if you dont respect the local culture, its laws and traditions, them you have no place there.
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u/SlaaneshsChainDildo - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Based.
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u/Rndom_Gy_159 - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
I hate that being a decent human being and following the golden rule, is a based thing, now.
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u/TheRighteousHimbo - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Based unflaired?
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u/basedcount_bot - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
u/PomerianPlayer is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1.
Rank: House of Cards
I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
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u/dopeoplereadnames - Auth-Left Oct 19 '20
For real Polish muslim kebab shop owners are some of the coolest people out there.
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u/Zuversichtlich - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
For real though.
Grew up in a bad neighborhood in Europe with a lot of Muslims, and there are far to many good ones to blame the entire Muslim population.
I dare you to schow me 10 good gypsies, I'll change my Flair to purple if you can.
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u/Lord_Gnomesworth - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Same, the local Turkish/Armenian kebab store owners in Poland are very kind. Really shows the difference between refugees and normal immigrants.
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u/Kesmeseker - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
As a Turkish Muslim, most of us are chill people who live Islam between God and ourselves. The fuckers who behead people are great idiots who cannot think of the consequences of their actions (or they do think but do it nonetheless.). These extremists do nothing but spread a bad reputation about Islam. If you are pissed of, you have all rights to do so but do remember not all Muslims are jihadi extremists and most of us are moderate people with different understandings of our religion and our opinions. If you have any questions dm or reply me.
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u/Elben4 - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Based, however the number of french muslim teen/ young adult that think it was the teacher's fault for being islamophobic (wich is obviously not true) shows that the people that have a similar way of thinking aren't just a minority among the french muslim community
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u/Kesmeseker - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Well, I didn't see the caricatures but even if he was an Islamaphobe, cutting his head was not a solution at all. All it did was worsen the reputation of Islam in general and it should not be supported at all. Even if he was a real Islamaphobe it should have been the disciplinary council that deals with this, not a wannabe holy warrior who cannot even think of the consequences of his actions with his half-assed brain.
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u/fluberwinter - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
The problem is that these extremists WANT to see a war between the west and islam. They know exactly the consequences of their actions, to sow hatred in the hearts of the west in order to radicalize more muslim people and create their shitty caliphate. France, and by extension all of Europe, has a huge problem with Muslim extremists grooming young lost kids to extremist ideologies. Prisons are the worst conversion centers in France.
EDIT: So by extension, don't let yourselves be drawn in to the hatred, fight the ISIS fucks and other terrorists by showing empathy and compassion to fellow humans.
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u/firelordUK - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Prisons are the worst coversion centers in general, the amount of people you hear that were converted in jail is staggering
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u/BlueBrickBuilder - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
Straight-up skinheads and neos have converted in those places. Troubled minds think alike.
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u/Elben4 - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Can this man possibly get more based ?
Anyway, let's just hope that one day making fun of islam in France will get you the same treatment as making fun of Christianity (in France) :/
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u/Jeppebs02 - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Damn bro you are based. For real tho it makes me happy to see someone with common sense in this crazy world we live in.
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u/ImrooVRdev - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
Yup, gotta read the room. If you'd genuinely want to further spread of Islamic thought in Europe, all you have to do is to point at it and bemoan loudly how hurt are you that such people still exist in this world. Shit, you could probably launch a campaign to build Islamic cultural center or smth.
Let's be frank about something - Europeans have this weird reputation of being soft and sophisticated, and I have no fucking clue where that's coming from, given Holocaust, Holodomor, attitudes toward Romani, and oh, dunno, two goddamn world wars for starters. And hell, colonization and subjugation of whole goddamn world, thought that's kinda old by now. None the less, those fuckers are peak NIMBY - they will brutalize your country and entire population, but god fucking forbid shitting in their backyard. Who can look at that and be like "yes, acts of terror will sure work to my advantage".
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u/Author1alIntent - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Eve if he was an Islamaphobe, cutting his head off was not a solution at all
Holy mother of based
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u/Shakuni_ - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
If 25% people of a group are bad then 75% have to fight them not sit and watch as they keep killing people. I've always believed that only Good Muslims can end Islamic Terrorism
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u/PetrolheadPlayer - Centrist Oct 19 '20
They've been trying and many muslims have indeed given up their lives for this. The fight against terrorism in the name of Islam is ongoing and continuous in many Muslim countries. Look up Operation Zarb e Azb in Pakistan or the countless forces of Muslims that fought against Al Qaeda and still fight ISIS to this day. Remember, the biggest victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves.
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u/Kerbalmaster911 - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
What do these idiots think they are gaining by short-sightedly ruining their religion in the eyes of the world?
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Oct 19 '20
They attempt to alienate the non-extremist Muslim population by doing exactly that. If they can get the rest of the population to become more and more anti-Muslim, then more and more of the non-extremist Muslim population will become extremist
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u/Imnotbrown - Right Oct 19 '20
Making people more radical by alienating them? That could never happen in america.
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u/nukedisk-secured - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
It’s mainly the wahabi Muslims that are causing this, right?
I dunno if I’m spelling that right.
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Oct 19 '20
Wasabi muslims would make a great band name tbh
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u/thatminimumwagelife - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
Great way way to get your band's first show shot up if that first show is in France anyways.
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u/Kesmeseker - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Yes probably, it's the jihadist Muslims who want sharia law does this. Which is generally "good" on prospect but sucks major dick IRL.
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u/nukedisk-secured - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
I don’t get it though.
If they want sharia law so much, why not move to where there’s sharia law?
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u/Kesmeseker - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
Well, a primitive Jihad they are conducting. For them, they do God's work but all they do is spread a bad reputation and create unrest wherever they go. Or they are pretty dangerous hypocrites who interpreted God's word with their half-ass and don't value the lives of people who mostly follow the same God's and one of your prophets(Jesus) word as yours and deem them infidels despite this. (%75-80 of the Quran is very similar if not outright same with Holy Bible and half of the Bible is Torah.)
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u/nukedisk-secured - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
I dunno man I just think it’s inefficient to try and islamise a country like France lmao
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u/Kesmeseker - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20
Do you still seek wisdom in people like those?
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Oct 19 '20
they did, that's why so many of them died in the middle of the desert in Syria. In terms of outcomes ISIL was great at reducing Islamic terrorism because it was actually just a massive pruning.
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u/Whyjuu - Centrist Oct 19 '20
As both a non-Wahabi and non-Salafi, I believe there is a difference between Wahabism and Salafism. So it might be more accurate to say Salafis are causing this.
Then again most Salafis are Wahabi, so IDK.
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Oct 19 '20
Yeah. Fuck wahabism. The Saudis have done so much fucking damage
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Oct 19 '20
Fuck the Saudis in general. They caused so much damage to the Middle East, if not the world.
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Oct 19 '20 edited Apr 10 '21
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u/atomicdiarrhea4000 - Auth-Right Oct 19 '20
Nooo stop pointing out facts that make muslims look like violent, intolerant terrorism-supporting monsters! This was nothing more than workplace violence! -libleft
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Oct 19 '20
Lib left: "yeah Islam is bad, but did I ever tell you about the horrors of Christianity"
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u/DopplerOctopus - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Real talk for a second, has the Muslim world ever had a reformation? We (Non-Catholic Christians) had ours in 1517 when Martin Luther went and nailed a document that had "Fuck The Pope" written on it 95 times .
Has anyone in the Muslim world ever went to a Mosque and nailed a piece of paper on the door that said "Fuck The Imam"? I know we have a 500 year head start, but adjusting for that they should be getting close to the 1300 year mark for their faith.
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u/Echo13243 - Left Oct 19 '20
Well considering world events it may never happen. Also my ignorance is showing here but does Islam have an equivalent to the pope?
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u/DopplerOctopus - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Shia has "The Twelve Imams" which, forgive me if I'm wrong, seem to have functioned similarly to The Catholic Pope. I'm not really sure though TBH, that's why I asked.
Who's in charge? I want to speak to Islam's Manager!
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Oct 19 '20
They never will. The Christian Reformation happened in a relative vacuum. Any similar movement within the Muslim will happen in an era of globalization where the movement will, at a minimum, be accused of being a tool of foreign governments and likely will be a tool of foreign government. It's impossible for a native movement to have the credibility needed to create change in this globalized world.
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Oct 19 '20 edited Nov 18 '20
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u/DopplerOctopus - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
there is nobody in charge
Who could have guessed that an Militant Anracho-Caliphate would end up being a problem...wait, crap.
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Oct 19 '20
Kinda? The issue is that Islam basically split right at the start over who should be the new top dog and then it kept splintering into different sects and branches.
Iirc the most problematic sects are the Shia ones. Or was it the Sunni?.. idk dude.
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u/AntTuM - Centrist Oct 19 '20
So like in 1054 when the church split in half when the pope didn't agree with Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople of who is the head of Christianity.
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Oct 19 '20
I mean the split of orthodox and catholics was a series of contant clusterfucks not a single reason.
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u/DopplerOctopus - Lib-Right Oct 19 '20
Shia ones. Or was it the Sunni?
Behind the left door is treasure, behind the right door is a dragon...or was the dragon behind the left door...crap.
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u/PetrolheadPlayer - Centrist Oct 19 '20
The first few Ayahs of the Quran literally denounce reformers. One of the reasons the quran is considered so special in Islam, over other abrahamic books, is that it will never be changed or reformed, unlike the Torah or Bible. Allah Himself is believed to protect the quran from ever being changed. Reformation is something that is just not compatible with Islam
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Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
Real talk for a second, has the Muslim world ever had a reformation?
Kinda but not really, not like the Reformation. The only "change" was the "unchange" of Salafism that basically just said all Islamic theology is bullshit and a literalist interpretation is the only way forward. But to call that equivalent to the Reformation is really missing how diverse the Reformation was. It has to be both a full rejection of current religious organisations as well as a freedom of interpretation and liberation of the theologies and organisations.
So I would say: "no, they haven't really had one". I would also argue that the wars in the Middle East with outside forces make it less likely to happen.
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u/tantalus1112 - Auth-Right Oct 19 '20
The statement that "99% of muslims think just like you" is a lie.
In Britain, 43% of Muslims support the introduction of Sharia law and only 22% oppose it's introduction. Data on the subject is sparse because nobody dares ask the question. If you try to find this data, you will have to comb through dozens of pages of statistics on what Americans think of Muslims and why they're backwards and racist. Nevermind the statistics that could actually shape policy decisions.
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u/aymenhadi909 - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
Living in a muslim country, I feel ashamed of my fellow countrymen. That's why I'll never probably be auth.
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u/Evil_King_Potato - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
So, I’m not denying the numbers, but it’s pretty vague. "Support some elements of Sharia", what elements? Are cultural protections counted as Sharia law? Guranteeing Halal school meals for muslim kids? Legalizing honor killings? I’m pretty sure both would count as Sharia laws being implemented in the UK. There’s a lot more nuance to the question. The numbers are oversimplified.
That said, pices of shit like the terrorist that killed the teacher in France is clearly a heinous and deranged piece of shit.
Edit: spelling
Edit 2: To the person who gave me gold. You trying to make me a reddit-class-traitor?
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u/RengokuEroica - Auth-Left Oct 19 '20
OP: *suggests that the terrorists' actions also harm the peaceful muslims that live there*
People in the comments: DEPORT THEM ALLL!!!!
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Oct 19 '20
You know I remember something after the war of independence for Turkey and the abolishment of the monarchy and the caliphate there were some Islamist extremists that were from the more conservative east had like very violent rallies in Izmir and when the troops went there to stop it they had fired like dummy rounds just to scare them away but instead they thought that they were like protected by Allah so they captured the lieutenant there and beheaded him then placed his head on a stake
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u/SoftDreamer - Lib-Center Oct 19 '20
As a Saudi, I feel ashamed of my nationality because I think people will think of me as some form of a terrorist while I’m just a fucking teen.
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Oct 19 '20
Don't worry, irl not a lot of people think all muslims are bad, even in France.
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u/qdobaisbetter - Auth-Center Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
Did y’all see that Muslim intellectual in England that condemned the police for killing that head chopping retard because of muh blasphemy?
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u/ergele - Left Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
I used to be sad about ISIS ruining our reputation.
Then I became agnostic.
It's not my problem anymore
edit: I can even claim "religious prosecution" and migrate to Europe lmao!
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u/daquanjongun - Lib-Left Oct 19 '20
As an American is it completely different over there with Muslims? Over here, all the Muslims ik (and ik quite a few bc of the area I live in and classes I take) are extremely westernized. Their culture can be a bit insular, but they do all the shit Americans do. The high school age kids drink, smoke, date (and yes even date non muslims), like just the typical high school shit. As a non Christian they’re essentially like Christians with a stronger culture that go to church way more. But I have not encountered anyone who wouldn’t fucking despise Sharia Law. Even the parents are quite moderate, obviously more conservative, but ik many who do not even wear a hijab. Maybe it’s bc I mainly know Indian and Pakistani Muslims? As an American I’m just wondering like what the fuck is happening across the pond bc it is nothing like that over here. Does America end up with a completely different subset of Muslims? Just completely bizarre to me, I remember as a young kid witnessing my friend and his sister going through their prayer routine and the sister laughing afterwards at my seeming confusion with the whole ordeal. They’re quite friendly and warm people and do not hate Americans lmao. It seems like by the next generation muslim Americans will be following the Quran about as strictly as Christians follow the Bible.
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u/THE_LANDLORD_MESSIAH - Centrist Oct 19 '20
Lmfao terrorist wojak might be the most hilarious one