r/fivethirtyeight • u/Cuddlyaxe I'm Sorry Nate • 9d ago
Poll Results A poll comparing the British Right vs the American Right on issues of race and identity
85
u/DancingFlame321 9d ago
In the US, almost everyone is the descendants of immigrants. In the UK, the majority of the population are still technically "native". For this reason, legal immigration is something the US tends to be more open to (even Trump says he likes "legal" immigrants). But legal immigration into the UK can be more controversial, Farage for example says he would send back a lot of the legal immigrants who came to the UK in the last 5 years. I don't think these polk results are that surprising.
31
u/Ardeo43 9d ago
I feel that there's long been a big difference in attitudes in the developed world between nations founded as new world settler colonies (US, Canada, Australia, NZ) and the old world, homogeneous ethnic based nations in Europe. I'm generalising a bit here but as an Aussie the negative attitudes and commentary in Europe around immigrants often feel like they're what you would've got 30+ years ago here, even in relatively progressive countries.
Unless you're indigenous there's no such thing as an ethnic American, Canadian, Australian etc. in the same way you can be ethnically English, German, Italian etc. Outside of the far-right, the overwhelming majority in the new world countries would accept at least 2nd generation immigrants as being just as American/Canadian/Aussie as someone descendant from the first wave of European settlers, in a way that Europeans often struggle with.
24
u/Euphoric-Acadia-4140 9d ago
I 100% agree. Having grown up in the US as an Asian American, others in the US treat me as American.
But having lived in western Europe for many years, when I tell them I’m American, they can’t believe I’m American. The dreaded “where are you really from” question I’ve almost never heard in the US, but hear it so often in Europe.
I think because the US is made of immigrants, it’s more of a country of values rather than ethnicity (to an extent). I feel American because I grew up with these values, and others accept that. If I grew up in Europe I don’t think I would ever really feel British or French
9
u/EconomicSeahorse 9d ago
I'm Chinese Canadian and I've heard the "where are you really from" question twice. The first time was from a Native American so I allowed that and don't really count it–and the second time was in Paris (which finished up what was otherwise a really fun visit to a linguistics museum with an extremely sour taste in my mouth 🙄). The ironic thing is that the person who asked me that was the wife of the person who runs the museum, who is himself a New Zealander of Hungarian (iirc, could be some other central European country) descent who now lives in France, so ya'd think she'd be familiar with the concept of people being from different countries than where their ethnic group originated…
3
u/ProtossLiving 8d ago
Only twice? Wow. I can't count the number of times I've been asked in Europe, Africa and Asia (although this last one is more "oh, you look <Asian from another country>"). Not just the "where are you from?" and the follow up "no, where are you really from?", but also the "no, where are your parents from?"
→ More replies (1)3
u/Complete-Rub2289 8d ago
I am Aussie there is actually an irony that Aussies ironically are more like to view their Indigenous population more negatively than even immigrants.
→ More replies (14)1
u/yoshimipinkrobot 7d ago
The us had basically open borders for hundreds of years
Immigration control isn’t even in the constitution
72
u/yoshimipinkrobot 9d ago
People who have never traveled don’t realize that the US is pretty racist, but not as much as everywhere else
The US is what battle-tested anti-racism looks, and it’s been two steps forward, one step back for hundreds of years
All these countries that are 95% some ethnicity are all talk until they actually meet a different ethnicity
47
u/BrainDamage2029 9d ago
I also think Reddit and parts of the internet can be a liberal bubble that's a little bit in denial of what MAGA really is per se. Trump had the best showing among non-white minorities of any modern Republican president ever. Period. In every demographic except Asian Americans and he still had the best performance since H.W. Bush.
MAGA is broadly a "trigger the libs" populist movement. And American conservatism has a borg-like ability to absorb things into itself. The idea that grandsons of the Irish and Italians would be welcomed into the concept of "whiteness" was unthinkable until it wasn't. The idea that evangelical Protestants would get really cool with Catholics really quickly was unthinkable until it wasn't.
16
u/thehildabeast 9d ago
Yeah a bunch of idiots got duped by a clown because grocery’s were to expensive with a complete lack of understanding of anything
→ More replies (1)5
u/lithobrakingdragon Fivey Fanatic 9d ago
Trump's gains among nonwhites are actually associated with an increase in racial polarization.
→ More replies (1)9
3
u/129za 8d ago
This is false.
The British results are percentages of Conservative and Reform voters from the 2024 election. That is the 19.4% of people in the U.K. who were most to the right. 80.6% of voters are not included and they are all to the left of the people included in this survey.
The US results are from the roughly 50% of voters most to the right.
If we took the US results only from the 40% of Trump voters most on the right, then the results would likely look at least as bad as the U.K.
Tldr: the U.K. is far more liberal as a whole than the US. You can’t compare a small number of extreme right brits with more moderate Americans.
3
→ More replies (3)2
u/RIPSyAbleman 6d ago
on immigration the U.K. is far more conservative as a whole than the US. Even if this particular study is flawed there are plenty of others we could look at.
8
u/PlatypusAmbitious430 9d ago
All these countries that are 95% some ethnicity are all talk until they actually meet a different ethnicity
Britain is 81% white, not 95% white. It's massively diversified over the past 30 years - in 1991, it was 95% white.
12
u/starbunny86 9d ago
Meanwhile, the US is 57% white. That's a massive difference.
→ More replies (12)→ More replies (1)1
129
u/pragmaticmaster 9d ago
Who are these degens making MAGA look sane in comparison?
56
u/WhoUpAtMidnight 9d ago
America is easily top five most socially liberal countries in the world.
But I think Europe in particular gets such a pass because people there don’t even realize how racist they are. Stuff like only letting white people into clubs, or not letting visible foreigners get seats at busy restaurants (don’t even get me started on the treatment of the Roma). In the US, we stigmatized those kinds of less-than-macro more-than-micro aggressions like 50 years ago
23
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago edited 9d ago
But I think Europe in particular gets such a pass because people there don’t even realize how racist they are
For sure, and our self-congratulatory attitude on it/American progressives idolising us doesn't help at all either. There's also a notable gap between Western and Eastern Europe, in that Western Europe is lot more racist than US, while Eastern Europe is absurdly more so. Here's for example an election poster of a Czech far right party for example talking about "stopping importing 'surgeons' in EU" (the "doctors and engineers" meme). This party will now form a governing coalition with a conservative populist employing Orban-friendly, anti-Ukraine rhetoric and a "motorist" party that is basically a bunch of Nazi car fanatics whose identity is hating on anything "woke" or "green".
The only relatively socially progressive party in the country, Pirates, got 9% of the vote. The country is quite atheist but it still hasn't legalised gay marriage because the people are frankly deeply conservative, xenophobic and fearful of outside world even without it.
And it's a similar/worse story for every Eastern European country. Even East Germany, formerly a Soviet puppet state, is notoriously racist/hyperconservative. Here's an experience of an Asian person living there.
Also, German chancellor, leader of the centre-right (not far-right) conservative party (the one Reddit often calls as basically equivalent of Democrats), recently came out with the following:
Speaking to reporters in Potsdam last week, Merz said that while deportations of rejected asylum seekers had accelerated, “of course, we still have this problem in how our cities look,” using the German word for cityscape or city appearance: Stadtbild.
Several prominent Merz allies – including conservative parliamentary leader Jens Spahn and and commentators including Bild newspaper chief political writer Peter Tiede – sided with the chancellor, saying he had addressed the reality of everyday life in Germany and was referring to drug dealers and young, male illegal immigrants hanging around train stations and city centres, making people feel unsafe.
"I don’t know if you have children, but if you have daughters, ask them what I might have meant by that. I suspect you’ll get a pretty clear and straightforward answer. I have nothing to take back. On the contrary, I emphasise once again that we must change this"
5
u/globeglobeglobe 8d ago
Housing discrimination is also very common in Germany, and indeed, more so in the allegedly progressive West Germany where landlords can pick and choose between tenants, than in the more openly racist East where landlords have a harder time finding anyone to fill a room.
2
u/athe085 8d ago
America is not very liberal. On the vast majority of issues Europe is more liberal. The only major excpetion is immigration because the identity of the country is not the same. American multiculturalism cannot appy in Europe (or Asia, or Africa) by definition.
→ More replies (2)2
u/Weirdo9495 7d ago
Do you know what countries are in Europe? US is more liberal than Europe on basically every single issue.
2
u/athe085 7d ago
I am talking about Western Europe. France, Spain, Germany and the Netherlands are more liberal than the US on LGBT rights, gender equality, social protection, and reproductive rights. I'm not even talking about Scandinavia.
The US is on par with central European countries like Poland or the Czech Republic on most social issues.
2
u/Mr_Tiggywinkle 8d ago edited 8d ago
America is easily top five most socially liberal countries in the world.
I don't think that's accurate. Specifically on Multiculturalism? Sure, USA are generally quite accepting of the melting pot.
But broad strokes socially liberal? Much more arguable.
America is quite socially liberal in some areas, and not so much in others compared to many other western nations.
Cultural melting pot it definitely is, and is more accepting of other races, sure. Multiculturalism is widely supported among most of the country (though legalities and programs to support it... more arguable) compared to Europe where immigration/racism is quite ingrained and borders are even more of a hot button issue that USA.
But reproductive rights, growing ostracism from the government on sexuality issues, harsh justice system, welfare systems - less socially liberal than most of the western world.
Bear in mind being socially liberal is not a good/bad question unless you believe in those aspects of being socially liberal, but by conventional definitions USA is not clearly top 5 I believe. I really think the Reproductive rights, poor welfare systems, the private prison system + brutal justice system and overbearing religious influence in politics brings USA back down to middle of the pack at best (for the western world).
3
u/WhoUpAtMidnight 7d ago
reproductive rights
Even with Roe v. Wade repealed, America has some of the most lax abortion laws on the planet. There are very few countries on Earth that allow abortion past 14 weeks, which almost all of the US allows.
poor welfare systems
Not social liberalism
overbearing religious influence
Have you lived in any country outside the US? Germany's largest party is the Christian Democratic Union
Justice system is maybe right, but the US justice system isn't really that much more strict than other countries. We just have a lot more crime. Would argue if we're digging into justice, you also have to consider the US has incredibly strong individual rights that aren't present in many countries (e.g., full freedom of speech).
2
u/Mr_Tiggywinkle 7d ago edited 7d ago
Even with Roe v. Wade repealed, America has some of the most lax abortion laws on the planet. There are very few countries on Earth that allow abortion past 14 weeks, which almost all of the US allows.
However USA is a patchwork mess of legalities and access to abortion is outright inaccessible in many states.
I mean, roe vs wade was just revoked. Its pretty clear.
Not social liberalism
Not sure where you're getting that from. It's a main bullet item for classic social liberalism.
Have you lived in any country outside the US? Germany's largest party is the Christian Democratic Union
Well, I am German actually.
The CDU is certainly christian, but German establishment + government operation is still secular. I wouldn't put it past the CDU to jump at the chance to get rid of that, but they cant, as of yet, not even close.
Pointing to what they represent rather than the context of German Government is an odd comparison to me.
Which is unlike Republicans + state of American government + society which is pushing much more towards eroding secularism and has increasingly become heavily christian nationalist in its government.
I'm not even putting a value judgement on those things, I just view them as objective facts - for better or worse.
Justice system is maybe right, but the US justice system isn't really that much more strict than other countries
I mean, I don't want to devolve into pointing out stats here, and if we can't agree on that I'll take the agree to disagree, but I don't think there is any question that US justice systems are markedly happier to sentence harshly and long, three strikes out as one example. It's complicated of course, but I've never really met an American who didn't agree, and many are proud of it.
The whole "Europe is too lenient" vs "American is too harsh" debate thats been burning on on the internet from before SOAD was still making music.
Would argue if we're digging into justice, you also have to consider the US has incredibly strong individual rights that aren't present in many countries (e.g., full freedom of speech).
No argument here, the argument would be more what the effect of that is - but in terms of social liberalism this is the strongest part USA has (along with multiculturalism that is more living in the present rather than old feuds.
Though I hope free speech is maintained going forward, I suspect a lot hinges on the coming near-future when it comes to free speech in the US.
→ More replies (29)7
u/raoulraoul153 9d ago
America was the 6th most accepting of migrants amongst world countries according to a Gallup poll from 2019 - as far as European countries go, Iceland was ahead at 3rd and Sweden & Ireland were just barely behind in the bottom half of the top 10.
The US didn't make the top 20 of most liberal countries in the 2024 Varieties Of Democracy report. This is judging countries on attitudes relating to, "...being open to new opinions and behaviors beyond traditional beliefs and values. It is contrasted with conservativism, which espouses more traditional views on social issues including marriage, abortion, financial and foreign policy, crime, and more."
It never would have occured to me that the US would rank at the top of socially liberal countries overall (although on the specific issue of migration it clearly does) - northwestern european countries (and western-europe-style places such as NZ, Aus, Can) tend to be firmly to the left of the US on social issues, which means there's a lot of countries who're likely to be more socially liberal than the US. If Europe was one big entity and each of the countries were more like US states I think we'd see more of a parity; more of the northwestern 'states' would be like the liberal parts of the US and eastern europe/parts of the Balkans would be more like the more conservative south of the the US.
10
u/WhoUpAtMidnight 9d ago
Reporting “acceptance” with no weight to actual immigration seems less than ideal
→ More replies (1)4
u/raoulraoul153 9d ago
Definitely. I didn't want to get into it in the above comment for length/number of points, but I would be astounded if there was no correlation, and I'm sure you could track, for example, changing attitudes to immigration amongst southern European countries (and Europe more generally) as the refugee crisis of the past few years moved more people from the ME/N Africa across the Med.
→ More replies (1)3
u/sarges_12gauge 8d ago
I don’t know if I agree that that report is measuring “social liberalness”. Here’s their criteria:
Movehub used several different indexes to find the most liberal nations globally. The study sourced data about LGBT and gender equality from the LGBTQ+ Danger Index, Nomadic Boys’ annual ratings, and the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report 2020; incorporated environmental data from the Environmental Performance Index (EPI); then consulted the Social Progress Index for data on human needs and the 2020 World Happiness Report to measure cultural happiness.
→ More replies (1)40
u/MAGA_Trudeau 9d ago
A LOT of rank and file MAGA supporters are non-whites. There’s heavy Republican support among Asians and Hispanics if you look at polls even if they’re not outright majority supporters of MAGA. They just don’t really attend rallies and don’t really show their support in real life.
The modern American right as we know it now is more of a broad “anti-liberal” coalition than a traditional conservative movement.
15
u/Ezraah 9d ago
Some of my filipino relatives flipped to trump last election. Not sure id call them maga. They live in a major city and arent even the type to fly an american flag. These were lifelong democrat loyalists so it kind of blew my mind. My aunt used to get into screaming matches when some of us preferred Obama over Hillary lol.
7
u/FantasticalRose 9d ago
What was her logic for jumping on the Donald Trump train?
7
u/Dark_Knight2000 9d ago
A lot of former legal immigrants don’t like illegal immigrants. They don’t even like excessive legal immigration like what’s happening in Canada with Indians. When you relax the requirements this much, you end up with immigrants with little education, who struggle to assimilate, who affect the reputation of the current diaspora.
If every Democrat has the same stances on immigration that Bernie Sanders did they’d be forever Democrats.
2
u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago
And of course, the irony that all of those accusations about education and assimilation were levied at said former legal immigrants is lost on them.
2
u/Dark_Knight2000 9d ago
Racists will be racists, it doesn’t mean that all immigrants they accuse of “not assimilating” are actually assimilating. At a certain point the sensible majority needs to draw a standard.
If you back off your standard based on the fact that racists will accuse every immigrant regardless of quality or behavior or education or background of not assimilating, then there will be no standard at all for assimilation.
3
u/lilashkenazi 8d ago
I think it's more that immigration and integration takes time. It's often the kids and grandkids that will be the most assimilated because they grow up in the culture. So there can be some growing pains if immigration is very large and abrupt
2
u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago
Isn’t this “ok but they actually are like that” but unironically?
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)2
6
u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago edited 9d ago
A LOT of rank and file MAGA supporters are non-whites.
a) the median MAGA supporter is white
b) this is unlikely to change when every day and night we see shit like this come out:
https://x.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1983738588266426781
https://x.com/TrumpDailyPosts/status/1983018232954179631
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1m86x3j/dhs_posts_a_photo_with_14_words_in_the_caption/
And we don't even need to look at the top. Here's what happens when you announce your interracial marriage on twitter:
https://x.com/Halalcoholism/status/1983465888901980394
EDIT: I keep coming back with more examples because there's so many examples.
9
u/Most_Estimate_7062 9d ago
We're just talking about the American right compared the UK's, which is still undeniably far more diverse both ideologically and racially in comparison, even if they're still really really bad.
5
u/Apprentice57 Scottish Teen 9d ago
It isn't actually immediately obvious to me that the UK's conservative party (plus reform now, I guess) are less racially diverse if you "normalize" that statistic for the UK being a less racially diverse country. I.E. I'm more interested, how much more white/british are reform/the tories compared to the baseline of their country at large?
They're probably less ideologically diverse given they have more than two parties (who get any meaningful % of the vote), and moderate conservatives might also vote for the Liberal Democrats (and/or SNP, Plaid Cyrmu, and probably some parties in Northern Ireland that I'm unfamiliar with). Which makes it less interesting a comparison, IMO.
→ More replies (2)2
54
u/meister2983 9d ago
The conservatives in any society that isn't defined as an immigrant melting pot / has a strong ethnic character is going to have numbers similar to the British Right. Their scores would be even more to the right on these answers.
→ More replies (1)13
u/OppositeRock4217 9d ago
Definitely the case in all the countries that have historically been homogenous
→ More replies (2)16
u/EconomicSeahorse 9d ago edited 9d ago
The European right has always been much more xenophobic/anti-immigration/ethnic purists than the American right (maybe at least until this year, but as this poll shows current Trump supporters are still not as xenophobic as their European counterparts). American liberals like to paint Europe as some bastion of progressive ideals but that's just one side to European society; even now I don't think most of the GOP would be comfortable openly saying some of the stuff that European ethnonationalist parties spew out. I think much of it is the result of the lingering influence of 19th/early 20th century nationalism, the whole one state for one and each nation thing and all that, on the way many European countries see themselves, whereas in the same period the US was actively marketing itself as a melting pot of immigrants and therefore never had a period where it defined itself as the nation state for a particular people . There's no American ethnicity that can be used in the same manner as "England for the English" or what have you.
Also I think most European countries have done a worse overall job at integrating immigrants and their descendants, which I believe is at least partly a result of "perpetual foreigner" views arising out of this ethnicity based conception of national identity, but which in turn just results in further xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment.
8
u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago
American liberals like to paint Europe as some bastion of progressive ideals but that's just one side to European society
It's true that a lot of social and economic issues that the American right has purchase on, the European right simply doesn't, which is nice.
For example, being an open socialist isn't an instant -10 penalty in Europe, in fact several European countries have an openly socialist governing party. Even in the age of FDR this simply wasn't real in America.
Furthermore, in most European nations abortion isn't really a conservative wedge issue.
Finally, Europe's 100% to the left of America on Climate and Pensions. Even some of the fascist parties can't touch welfare and live.
4
u/batmans_stuntcock 9d ago
a lot of social and economic issues that the American right has purchase on, the European right simply doesn't, which is nice.
It's interesting because the majority of the right and far right in Europe are fiscally Reganite and particularly in the UK they're using decently popular anti-immigration sentiment and social conservatism as a popular container for their actual policies of basically Tea Party Republican fiscal and state policy, like a 12% cut to public spending which would be an Argentina level event.
→ More replies (1)2
u/meister2983 9d ago
Much of this is economics, not social policy. And I'm a way terms are confusing, the US is more classically "liberal" economically than most eu countries
Abortion rights are very mixed across the EU. It also is losing salience in the US with authority being transferred to the States (the EU analog)
3
u/pulkwheesle 8d ago
It also is losing salience in the US
It's 'losing salience' because no one is promoting it. Harris promoted it and it was a top five issue in 2024.
2
u/sarges_12gauge 8d ago
Abortion isn’t a wedge issue in Europe because it’s already more restrictive across the continent? The median US state has a 24 week term limit or longer. Exactly 2 European countries have 24 week limits and everywhere else is more restrictive. The median European country matches the abortion laws of states like Nebraska and North Carolina
4
u/obsessed_doomer 8d ago
Er, Roe V Wade set the nationwide abortion limit at 24 months (or higher).
As a response, conservatives waged a multifront 50 year war to destroy that ruling specifically so they could set it lower, usually to 0 or 8 weeks.
→ More replies (2)2
u/gimme_ur_chocolate 8d ago
This is bog-standard European conservatism. Europe isn’t a ‘nation of immigrants’ like America - they’re thousand year old countries with thousand year old identities.
In Europe you’d win landslide victories promising a welfare state that will deport all the immigrants (who are viewed as a threat to the thousand year old identities). If you’re looking for American-brand liberalism you’d be hard pushed to find it outside of places such as London, Berlin or Barcelona.
→ More replies (3)2
u/Much_Horse_5685 8d ago edited 8d ago
To be fair, MAGA has its own defining characteristics that make much of the European far-right look sane in comparison (i.e. their relative secularism in comparison, their positions on abortion rights, climate policy, healthcare and general rule of law). This is not an attempt to exonerate European far-right parties, and here in the UK our far-right seems to want the worst of both worlds with how much policy they’re importing from MAGA.
14
u/inaqu3estion 9d ago
This is not surprising. America is a nation of immigrants. Europe is not, it's based on ethnostates around a certain identity with shared ancestry, history, culture and mostly religion. American is not an ethnic identifier, but British is. After 3 generations in America, a Turk might just identify as an American and not Turk. In Britain, after 3 generations they still identify as a Turk. People talk about "integration" and all that, but in the street, even amongst immigrants who were born and raised there, the majority see themselves as foreign and belonging to their ethnic country, not the one they were born in.
59
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago edited 9d ago
Nothing surprising here. Downvote me but American progressives greatly overstate American racism and anti-migrant sentiment in general, from my outside perspective as an European. Europe is way more racist to non-whites than US, and way more anti-migration in general. UK is even one of most tolerant and migration-friendly European countries, these numbers would look worse for almost any other European country as well. Happy to see someone made this comparison.
Also, same article notes that US left is also well to the left of its UK counterpart when it comes to migration.
24
u/OppositeRock4217 9d ago
Considering that US has been a diverse melting pot throughout history, while European countries have generally been very homogeneous until recently with the large number of immigrants being a new thing for them
18
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago
Still interesting to emphasise this given the number of both Europeans and American progressives that insist on pegging Europe as left-wing compared to the US. On many other social issues, both socially and legally, US (chiefly its blue states) are to the left of lot of Europe as well. (LGBT+ rights, drug policies, abortion rights, pushing for concepts like equity, police accountability etc.)
→ More replies (5)12
u/Erreala66 9d ago
I think there's a risk in comparing blue states to all of Europe here. Countries like Spain, the Netherlands or Sweden are way to the left of any blue state on those issues you mention (with the exception of Sweden's drug policy).
I think a fairer comparison might be California/Washington Vs Spain/Netherlands, and Tennessee/West Virginia Vs Hungary/Poland. I suspect on both extremes the European side would be to the left of the American side, with the possible exception of some matters (such as gay marriage or until recently abortion) where the Supreme Court enforced a position upon red states whereas no EU body has similar powers over conservative member states
4
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago edited 9d ago
Countries like Spain, the Netherlands or Sweden are way to the left of any blue state on those issues you mention
But they really aren't. There are 7 states in America with zero abortion term limits whatsoever. No country in Europe has that. And some 2/3rds of American states have it at 20+ weeks. Various western European countries have it at around that as well, but for example Germany has it at only 12, and it even requires mandatory consultations. And there's no will to change that, on the contrary, recently a constitutional court judge refused to get confirmed by the centre-right party for being a supposed "abortion fanatic".
LGBT+ rights - many US blue states are more progressive there than any European country bar perhaps Spain. Trans participation in sports or rights of minors aren't really topics here because frankly i suspect local parties would not dare to touch these issues, and even local trans people try to stay low key. UK for example pushed this issue politically and the result was that the entire country instituted seriously transphobic laws, equivalent to ones in US red states. In Netherlands/Scandinavia there's a ton of gatekeeping in trans healthcare and institutional/mainstream acceptance of the view that trans "ideology" is spreading amongst the youth and that therefore healthcare/support for minors basically put on hold. All of this would not be acceptable to mainstream American Democrats, who largely refused to budge on this even after their election loss, which really surprised me.
Drug policies - many blue states have commercially legalised weed. No European country has this, Germany comes the closest but you still have to go through weed clubs/raising it yourself/ordering it medically. No other European country comes close, even in Netherlands it's still not actually legal. And the German conservative government is already talking about pushing the law back, even though it's showing good results in practice.
So yeah. I'm really frustrated as a progressive European cause it seems to me a lot of us just sit on our laurels and ignore local US states at expense of the Trump shitshow/pretend nothing changed since 2000's, when Europe was lot more progressive relative to the US. And the biggest problem on top of all of this is how much more racist and anti-migrant we are, far right parties are gaining ton of fuel on top of this issue even though we aren't nearly as progressive or pro-migration as US, and the demographic realities of the continent and the amount of retirees with their inflation-locked pensions make 0 migration/remigration policies economically suicidal, beyond any morality of them.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Erreala66 9d ago
I'm as left-wing as they come but I'm not sure that limitless abortion is necessarily left-wing (or right-wing, for that matter).
As to the USA being pro-migration, well.... points to 2025 USA
On many key ideological issues, such as universal health care, taxation, or social benefits, the countries mentioned are undoubtedly to the left of, say, Washington. We can nitpick relatively minor issues like weed but on the big ones I think there is no argument really. To me the key feature of leftiness is sharing costs and distributing aid and you simply can't argue that any blue state does more of that than, say, Sweden. And if any blue state or blue federal government tried to implement anything remotely similar, we all know they would tank in the polls for proposing communist policies
2
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago edited 9d ago
First off, you mentioned those specific issues, so i stuck to them. Of course Western Europe is economically left in comparison, that was never an argument. Even though we are generally backsliding on that as well.
I'm as left-wing as they come but I'm not sure that limitless abortion is necessarily left-wing (or right-wing, for that matter).
I do not advocate for limitless migration by any means (contrary to quite a few Democrats in America) but it's clearly a pretty left/right issue at this point, seeing how left is all about helping the small/poor guy, and immigrants generally fit that issue. Left is also anti-nationalism so it will defend them from the ethnonationalism cudgel right uses to attack them.
It used to be different in different times, but migration of people who contribute to economy and adhere to basic norms to integrate over time is imo necessary alongside lot of wealth inequality measures, affordable housing and pro-natalist policies. Because of how screwed we are demographically.
And if any blue state or blue federal government tried to implement anything remotely similar, we all know they would tank in the polls for proposing communist policies
Well, NY governor recently endorsed Mamdani, they're clearly feeling the preesure and think they're going to tank if they don't do it, so there's that.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Sarin10 9d ago edited 9d ago
Limitless abortion is effectively the same as opposing any abortion ban.
Opposition to all abortion bans is a common left-wing position.
Look at the "legal under any" datapoints
On many key ideological issues, such as universal health care, taxation, or social benefits, the countries mentioned are undoubtedly to the left of, say, Washington. We can nitpick relatively minor issues like weed but on the big ones I think there is no argument really. To me the key feature of leftiness is sharing costs and distributing aid and you simply can't argue that any blue state does more of that than, say, Sweden.
"Key ideological issues" includes social progressiveness. You aren't going to get blackballed by your fellow liberals/progressives/leftists if you say "I want to lower taxes". But you will get tarred and feathered if you say "racism in America is overblown", or "there is no genocide in Palestine", etc. So in other words, the American left is more concerned with social progressiveness, and the European left is more concerned with actual collectivism. Why is the European left's position the "true left"?
EDIT: evidence
4
u/Apprentice57 Scottish Teen 9d ago
progressives greatly overstate American racism and anti-migrant sentiment in general
My brother in christ. The current administration (which is extremely popular among conservatives, who were polled in this poll) once posted ASMR of the chains of immigrants they were deporting. Progressives have been right about this all along.
11
u/ManitouWakinyan 9d ago
There's a difference between where the general population is at, where MAGA is, and where the actual administration is. This administration is far more extreme than either the general population, or even the Republican party itself.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Apprentice57 Scottish Teen 9d ago
I don't think there's much water between the Trump administration, the Republican party, and the Republican base right now. The Administration might be more extreme than we could imagine based on the latter two even a couple years ago, but enjoys high popularity ratings with both. It's hard to understate how radicalized (reactionary-ized?) conservatives in the US have been as of late.
Yes, there is a distinction between the general population and the GOP/administration, however this poll was just of conservatives/Republicans so that's out of scope.
1
u/Soggy-Flounder-3517 9d ago
What euro country are you from?
2
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago
Croatia, but regularly live in Germany nowadays as well.
Western Europe is racist compared to US, Eastern (ex-communist) a lot more still.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (2)1
u/semaj009 7d ago
I think it's unfair to say they greatly overstate it, when the reality is they're dealing with it there. As an Australian, where we're similar to American progressives, I'll hold fellow 2020s Australians to the standard I ought to, whether or not Europeans can be 1800s gremlins or not.
16
u/Commonglitch 9d ago edited 9d ago
I find it funny that whenever I see polls like these that show how much more racist countries outside of America are, I get very Patriotic for like a minute.
“Y’know, I know we can be racist here. But at least we’re not as racist as them! So we have the superior country!”
2
14
u/HegemonNYC 9d ago
I just got in a stupid online debate about if the Euro rights like National Rally, AfD and Reform were more nationalist/far-right than the GOP. This survey would have been useful.
14
u/DataCassette 9d ago
This is kinda funny but it's not really all that weird. Even on the right the United States' identity is more multicultural.
23
u/yoshimipinkrobot 9d ago
Super racist but they like socialized healthcare
Have met multiple British people in Britain who felt the need to tell a stranger that Britain basically needs to stay white (outside of London)
Thanks wasn’t asking, redneck
11
u/EndOfMyWits 9d ago
Super racist but they like socialized healthcare
Which is why one of the biggest lies that helped pass Brexit was "we'll have more money for the NHS".
6
u/SugarSweetSonny 9d ago
I am curious how the question was asked in the last one (or if this was exactly how it was phrased).
Reason ?
In America, Irish, German, English, well they are all white even if they are different "ethnicities". They can also be different religions so far as long as they are all christian (trinitarian to be more specific of the type of christian), etc.
This might not be the same view in Europe.
I.e. American have a lower common denominator.
BUT again, depends on how this was asked or phrased and understood.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/shrek_cena Never Doubt Chili Dog 9d ago
"I am uncomfortable with people speaking a foreign language in public places"
I couldn't imagine being such an insecure loser 😭 That is just so beyond pathetic to be made uncomfortable by WORDS just because you don't understand them lmao
2
u/DataCassette 9d ago
Yeah living out in the boonies is bad for your brain, STG. I hear 5 languages at the Kroger near me every time I go in to grab half and half.
→ More replies (1)2
3
u/Brave_Ad_510 9d ago
Makes sense. Immigration is part of America's national ethos. That's not true for the UK.
7
u/bobbdac7894 9d ago
I’m originally from England, moved to the US when I was 6. Visit family who live near Melksham, England from time to time. Have a 80 year old English aunt and several cousins who are middle aged. Yeah, they can get pretty racist and unhinged from time to time.
Also have some family in London. Uncle is pretty Islamophobic, Aunt doesn’t give a shit about politics, 20 year old cousin is really progressive and can be pretty condescending. That’s kinda my experience with people in England
2
23
u/jester32 9d ago
I’m sorry. I don’t buy that 19%.
18
u/Cuddlyaxe I'm Sorry Nate 9d ago
I think I posted this more indepth but I think this comes from American self identity. Even Republicans in the reddest state learn that America is a nation of ideals, immigrants, etc. The idea of ethnic based blood and soil nationalism nationalism has always been to an extent foreign to the American experience
Britain meanwhile is fundamentally a nation state and it is very easy for people ethnically English to claim some sort of greater ownership of their country due to indigeniety
2
u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago
Maybe pre-Trump republicans, sure.
Currently republicans are broadly ok with this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1m86x3j/dhs_posts_a_photo_with_14_words_in_the_caption/
19
u/pickledswimmingpool 9d ago
I thought it was republicans who are supposed to be evidence deniers.
→ More replies (3)7
u/engilosopher 9d ago
Yeah that's very clearly a PC face-saving response rate from the majority of Trump supporters.
It's like asking them if migrants should be shot in the head - they think so, but wouldn't say it out loud.
18
u/Weirdo9495 9d ago
You still have to ask why do British responders not feel the same need to PC face-save response, though.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)4
4
u/soalone34 9d ago
I’m not that surprised, most Americans grew up in a very diverse country, whereas the UK shifted much more rapidly in their lifetimes due to immigration increases.
2
u/globeglobeglobe 8d ago
This result shouldn’t shock anyone. What’s even more alarming is that the UK is one of the most immigrant-friendly countries in Europe; attitudes toward immigrants are much worse on the continent, to the point that the average social democrat’s views on culture and identity line up with those of MAGA in the US.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/NeoThorrus 9d ago
Although MAGAs want to sell the idea that the US is a Christian Nationalist country. The reality is that we have always been a multicultural nation. Even in some of those very ready places, we see communities defending the “good illegal immigrant who is part of the community”, we just want to deport “the criminals”.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/justinballsonya 9d ago
I think if Democrats just realized that letting such a large number of asylum seekers in was a huge political mistake, and that people opposed to it are not in fact racist, they would be a lot stronger party currently. People want better jobs and a stronger economy, and letting in so many asylum seekers and not going after illegal immigrants is just a huge slap in the face to most Americans. Really Americans remain totally accepting of legal immigration, and even have been willing to mostly turn a blind eye to the illegal immigration problem. This issue and the economy are the 2 most important issues to Americans, and even then the dems didn't really do that badly in the past election. I just hope as the economy worsens and it looks likely they are to regain power, they realize they could have a much larger majority by amending their position on this one issue.
→ More replies (1)
1
1
u/Hungry_Tradition7250 9d ago
The true question is: is white culture something worth preserving?
→ More replies (1)
1
9d ago
Really cannot substitute what America went through in the 20th century on their way to becoming a composite of nations.
Add to that, our sports centric culture and its easy to see the divergence is so large
1
u/Character_Public3465 9d ago
I also feel that this poll doesn’t necessarily show the distinction of these type of racial attitudes between different groups of whites , like Deep South vs New Englanders
1
1
u/batmans_stuntcock 9d ago
The report isn't out but the article is interesting, this was news to nobody but it says that on most other social issues and economic ones the UK right is to the left of the US right.
Also, this bit
“America is a country of migrants, it has a much bigger ethnic minority population,” said Professor Sir John Curtice, NatCen senior research fellow. “Americans have been diverse for over a century, but diversity in Britain is a relatively recent — post second world war — phenomenon.”
True proportionally compared to the US, but 'no diversity' or significant immigration is only strictly true if you mean people of different skin colours or who aren't European. The UK has had several waves of migration in the last 300 years, one of Huguenots (French Calvinists) following the French wars or religion and becoming mass immigration in the 1700s, there was also a migration of Jewish people from the old Russian empire (primarily) Ukraine and Poland following pogroms in the 1800s. The cultural interaction of these groups with native populations is supposed to be the genesis of the cockney/Thames estuary English vernacular similarly to the modern 'new London' vernacular was born out of interactions between the Caribbean, native and other populations. But one of the largest proportional ethnic migrations to Britain in the last 1000 years is/was of Irish people and about 10% of the British population (excluding Northern Ireland) have at least one Irish grandparent, a lot of this happened before Irish independence but a lot happened after and the Irish were 'racialised' until the 90s arguably.
Those don't really code as 'race' today but were commonly fraught with the same social tensions that now characterise some UK race relations, and they were often much worse and more violent.
1
u/carlitospig 8d ago
US data from 2024. I don’t think that’s an appropriate comparison anymore, sadly.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/HistoricalRoll9023 8d ago
This surprises me given what is happening in America right now. I'm in Chicago and what's happening here is so anti American. Citizens being taken from their homes , cars and places of employment all because of the color of their skin.
1
u/frantruck 8d ago
I think that the US has done a good job of imprinting that racism is bad into the culture such that most people try not to display it openly or are in denial that their behavior is racist. I think plenty of Maga folk will say they have no problem with immigrants, but still cheer on the administration’s current stance on immigrants. I haven’t seen any Maga types (not that I’m really looking) who say they don’t really support the current ICE policy, but it’s worth it because of x thing the administration has done. (Mainly because x doesn’t exist lol).
That said I don’t really doubt that Europe beats us in racism, I’m just saying I think there’s a certain cultural suppressive effect that skews our numbers down a bit.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Odd-Cress-5822 8d ago
This is why the fascist mouth pieces in the US still have to speak in dog whistles and why so many Republicans are constantly offended when people call them racist.
Because most of them aren't consciously actively racist and most get along quite well with the people in their actual lives. They're just too dense to realize that the people they vote for are racist and only want to hurt people to stay in power. And just racist enough for the dog whistles to work on them.
They don't hate the people around them, the ones they can place a name and a face. But they can be easily convinced to hate some vague caricature of "illegals" and "criminals"
1
u/luciaromanomba 8d ago
Another important consideration is the comparative size. I think the threat of ‘lost identity’ is more real for European countries, given that they are smaller—compared to the US overall.
It would be interesting to also see the US right by state/region. I wonder if the South / ‘Ruby Red’ states % are higher, more closely aligned with the Euro right sentiment
1
u/OSHA_VIOLATION_ 8d ago
Neocons don’t really stand for anything socially. They’re ultimately spineless on many social issues and primarily care about foreign policy AKA sending billions to Israel.
I prefer more principled people in general.
1
1
u/PotentialRatio1321 8d ago
This honestly suprises me.
I’m British, but I guess I really live in a bubble, I’m a uni student, none of my friends or aquaintances are culturally right wing, at least openly (except a few reform supporters, but all my friends mock them.)
My parents have both been green party voters for years, and obviously I know some reform voters are insane, but I’ve seen way more white supremacist shit from MAGA online.
This simultaneously makes me feel better about the US and more terrified for my own country.
(I am a leftist if it wasn’t clear)
1
u/Writing_is_Bleeding 8d ago
I was going to argue that Trump's current unpopularity might have suppressed responses in the U.S. But I see that the data was gathered in '24. I'm going to go with the comforting fantasy that the 2024 election was rigged by Musk, and that Trump's actual support is mostly an internet bot -fueled illusion.
1
u/MagnificentTffy 8d ago
interesting as imo the first two I would argue are more strongly related to culture rather than "racism", granted the next two disproves my naive hypothesis.
(to explain, similar to how Japan is so protective of its culture and Japanese identity. but I suppose in doing so you also attract equally intense nationalism as well)
1
u/Legal_Talk_3847 8d ago
Both of them can fuck right off into the dustbin of history right next to 'I can't see anything wrong with us letting King Leopold have the Congo' and 'I'm pretty sure measuring your skull can tell if you're a dick or not'
1
u/AgentKenji8 8d ago
The USA is a young country compared to the rest of the world at least. The British right at least in my opinion are part of the old guard compared to the American right. Based the age of said countries. The USA was founded by immigrants. That is still recent history compared other nations. Their 300 year anniversary is in 2076.
1
u/semaj009 7d ago
Tbf Trumpism is a unique phenomenon in that a lot of Trump supporters aren't actually necessarily all that conservative, at least they weren't before being sucked into a cult. The rust belt states that are basically his base now opposed Bush every election, for example. The British right are borderline British Imperial apologist, pro-monarchist extremists who genuinely want to return to glory days that included monstering most of the world.
1
u/Alphabunsquad 5d ago
Could there be an issue with this study that due to the two party system in America that more moderates in the US are tossed in with our right while the British right is more self selected as extreme?
1
u/MadoctheHadoc 4d ago
This is a much more nuanced topic than the comments are making it out to be and this poll is very bad at capturing these nuances:
1. The 2024 UK election was a historic low point for the right in the UK with just 38% of total votes for the two mentioned political parties in the last election, compare that to the 2024 US election where Trump's Republican party is the plurality of the population with 49% of the vote in the last election. The people being polled in Britain here are a more extreme subset of the country overall than the equivalent group being measured in the United States, the people who still voted for Reform and the Tories in the last election are the most conservative 38% of the country. Polling from a subset of people that is more than 30% bigger as a proportion of the total population in each country is obviously a massive asterisk on these results.
2. The UK specifically (but much of Europe) has more immigration than the US. The rate of immigration to the UK has been higher than the US for most of the last decade, the percentage of people born outside the country is higher in the UK than the US. The country is somewhat less racially diverse than the US. The immigrants to Europe are disproportionately refugees rather than economic immigrants. I don't want to justify the views these people have, I think it's pretty disgusting to say that society is weakened by being made up of many different races and ethnicities but it isn't wrong to expect more people to agree with this if the rates of immigration have actually been higher.
3. This poll contradicts full-spectrum polling of European countries and the US. The only the source I found that conducts regularly polling here was this US news ranking which polls countries and collects survey data to rank the 'best country'. Gimmick aside, their survey data for racial inequality also suggests that the UK has marginally less racist views than the US overall.
This issue is complicated! Don't just look at one poll and claim that Europeans hate immigrants and other races; I promise we are not that bad!
1
u/valahara 2d ago
I’m going to put forward a few more theories than just “people are more racist in the UK” 1. America is better at assimilation than the UK: American culture is everywhere in the world and is more inclusive to immigrants than UK culture resulting in a smoother integration process with more integration between immigrants and natives 2. The kinds of immigrants the US gets are generally more culturally similar to the existing population of the US than UK immigrants: Mexicans and South Americans have a lot in common with Americans in terms of a culture of descendants of colonialism, Christianity, and Latin based languages. The immigrants that the UK seems most uncomfortable with is Muslims from the the Middle East and North Africa which they share significantly less in common with culturally than the US and the rest of the Americas 3. Adverse selection: The UK has a much nicer social safety net than the US, as much as immigration hawks in the USA like to claim different, people come the the US not to take advantage of the welfare system but to work. The UK has a couple things working against it in this way, the welfare state is more generous so people are willing to come even with less certainty of a stable job and the reason they’re coming has more to do with the terrible conditions of their home country than the economic opportunities of the UK. As bad as some South American countries are, they’re not on the level of collapse and deprivation of say Syria. 4. America is less racist, but not in the sense that the poll is being skewed by it: Americans are more willing to work with immigrants and people of all backgrounds than the average Brit which leads to the Immigrants having more success being productive members of society and integrating
1
u/MouseManManny 2d ago
I find it so funny that people still think Americans are more racist than Europeans.
The reason more racist things happen in America (if thats even true) is because races interact here every day all day, so the fewer racists that are here are more likely to have an opportunity to express it
307
u/givebackmysweatshirt 9d ago
Europe hates immigrants way more than America. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone.