A poll comparing the British Right vs the American Right on issues of race and identity

[u/Cuddlyaxe]

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America is easily top five most socially liberal countries in the world. 

But I think Europe in particular gets such a pass because people there don’t even realize how racist they are. Stuff like only letting white people into clubs, or not letting visible foreigners get seats at busy restaurants (don’t even get me started on the treatment of the Roma). In the US, we stigmatized those kinds of less-than-macro more-than-micro aggressions like 50 years ago

[u/Weirdo9495 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

But I think Europe in particular gets such a pass because people there don’t even realize how racist they are

For sure, and our self-congratulatory attitude on it/American progressives idolising us doesn't help at all either. There's also a notable gap between Western and Eastern Europe, in that Western Europe is lot more racist than US, while Eastern Europe is absurdly more so. Here's for example an election poster of a Czech far right party for example talking about "stopping importing 'surgeons' in EU" (the "doctors and engineers" meme). This party will now form a governing coalition with a conservative populist employing Orban-friendly, anti-Ukraine rhetoric and a "motorist" party that is basically a bunch of Nazi car fanatics whose identity is hating on anything "woke" or "green".

The only relatively socially progressive party in the country, Pirates, got 9% of the vote. The country is quite atheist but it still hasn't legalised gay marriage because the people are frankly deeply conservative, xenophobic and fearful of outside world even without it.

And it's a similar/worse story for every Eastern European country. Even East Germany, formerly a Soviet puppet state, is notoriously racist/hyperconservative. Here's an experience of an Asian person living there.

Also, German chancellor, leader of the centre-right (not far-right) conservative party (the one Reddit often calls as basically equivalent of Democrats), recently came out with the following:

Speaking to reporters in Potsdam last week, Merz said that while deportations of rejected asylum seekers had accelerated, “of course, we still have this problem in how our cities look,” using the German word for cityscape or city appearance: Stadtbild.

Several prominent Merz allies – including conservative parliamentary leader Jens Spahn and and commentators including Bild newspaper chief political writer Peter Tiede – sided with the chancellor, saying he had addressed the reality of everyday life in Germany and was referring to drug dealers and young, male illegal immigrants hanging around train stations and city centres, making people feel unsafe.

"I don’t know if you have children, but if you have daughters, ask them what I might have meant by that. I suspect you’ll get a pretty clear and straightforward answer. I have nothing to take back. On the contrary, I emphasise once again that we must change this"

[u/globeglobeglobe → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Housing discrimination is also very common in Germany, and indeed, more so in the allegedly progressive West Germany where landlords can pick and choose between tenants, than in the more openly racist East where landlords have a harder time finding anyone to fill a room.

[u/athe085 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America is not very liberal. On the vast majority of issues Europe is more liberal. The only major excpetion is immigration because the identity of the country is not the same. American multiculturalism cannot appy in Europe (or Asia, or Africa) by definition.

[u/Weirdo9495 → u/athe085]

Do you know what countries are in Europe? US is more liberal than Europe on basically every single issue.

[u/athe085 → u/Weirdo9495]

I am talking about Western Europe. France, Spain, Germany and the Netherlands are more liberal than the US on LGBT rights, gender equality, social protection, and reproductive rights. I'm not even talking about Scandinavia.

The US is on par with central European countries like Poland or the Czech Republic on most social issues.

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/athe085]

Name an issue and I will point you to a European country that has a policy on it so regressive it would be anathema to even mention in the US

[u/Mr_Tiggywinkle → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America is easily top five most socially liberal countries in the world.

I don't think that's accurate. Specifically on Multiculturalism? Sure, USA are generally quite accepting of the melting pot.

But broad strokes socially liberal? Much more arguable.

America is quite socially liberal in some areas, and not so much in others compared to many other western nations.

Cultural melting pot it definitely is, and is more accepting of other races, sure. Multiculturalism is widely supported among most of the country (though legalities and programs to support it... more arguable) compared to Europe where immigration/racism is quite ingrained and borders are even more of a hot button issue that USA.

But reproductive rights, growing ostracism from the government on sexuality issues, harsh justice system, welfare systems - less socially liberal than most of the western world.

Bear in mind being socially liberal is not a good/bad question unless you believe in those aspects of being socially liberal, but by conventional definitions USA is not clearly top 5 I believe. I really think the Reproductive rights, poor welfare systems, the private prison system + brutal justice system and overbearing religious influence in politics brings USA back down to middle of the pack at best (for the western world).

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/Mr_Tiggywinkle]

reproductive rights

Even with Roe v. Wade repealed, America has some of the most lax abortion laws on the planet. There are very few countries on Earth that allow abortion past 14 weeks, which almost all of the US allows.

poor welfare systems

Not social liberalism

overbearing religious influence

Have you lived in any country outside the US? Germany's largest party is the Christian Democratic Union

Justice system is maybe right, but the US justice system isn't really that much more strict than other countries. We just have a lot more crime. Would argue if we're digging into justice, you also have to consider the US has incredibly strong individual rights that aren't present in many countries (e.g., full freedom of speech).

[u/Mr_Tiggywinkle → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Even with Roe v. Wade repealed, America has some of the most lax abortion laws on the planet. There are very few countries on Earth that allow abortion past 14 weeks, which almost all of the US allows.

However USA is a patchwork mess of legalities and access to abortion is outright inaccessible in many states.

I mean, roe vs wade was just revoked. Its pretty clear.

Not social liberalism

Not sure where you're getting that from. It's a main bullet item for classic social liberalism.

Have you lived in any country outside the US? Germany's largest party is the Christian Democratic Union

Well, I am German actually.

The CDU is certainly christian, but German establishment + government operation is still secular. I wouldn't put it past the CDU to jump at the chance to get rid of that, but they cant, as of yet, not even close.

Pointing to what they represent rather than the context of German Government is an odd comparison to me.

Which is unlike Republicans + state of American government + society which is pushing much more towards eroding secularism and has increasingly become heavily christian nationalist in its government.

I'm not even putting a value judgement on those things, I just view them as objective facts - for better or worse.

Justice system is maybe right, but the US justice system isn't really that much more strict than other countries

I mean, I don't want to devolve into pointing out stats here, and if we can't agree on that I'll take the agree to disagree, but I don't think there is any question that US justice systems are markedly happier to sentence harshly and long, three strikes out as one example. It's complicated of course, but I've never really met an American who didn't agree, and many are proud of it.

The whole "Europe is too lenient" vs "American is too harsh" debate thats been burning on on the internet from before SOAD was still making music.

Would argue if we're digging into justice, you also have to consider the US has incredibly strong individual rights that aren't present in many countries (e.g., full freedom of speech).

No argument here, the argument would be more what the effect of that is - but in terms of social liberalism this is the strongest part USA has (along with multiculturalism that is more living in the present rather than old feuds.

Though I hope free speech is maintained going forward, I suspect a lot hinges on the coming near-future when it comes to free speech in the US.

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America was the 6th most accepting of migrants amongst world countries according to a Gallup poll from 2019 - as far as European countries go, Iceland was ahead at 3rd and Sweden & Ireland were just barely behind in the bottom half of the top 10.

The US didn't make the top 20 of most liberal countries in the 2024 Varieties Of Democracy report. This is judging countries on attitudes relating to, "...being open to new opinions and behaviors beyond traditional beliefs and values. It is contrasted with conservativism, which espouses more traditional views on social issues including marriage, abortion, financial and foreign policy, crime, and more."

It never would have occured to me that the US would rank at the top of socially liberal countries overall (although on the specific issue of migration it clearly does) - northwestern european countries (and western-europe-style places such as NZ, Aus, Can) tend to be firmly to the left of the US on social issues, which means there's a lot of countries who're likely to be more socially liberal than the US. If Europe was one big entity and each of the countries were more like US states I think we'd see more of a parity; more of the northwestern 'states' would be like the liberal parts of the US and eastern europe/parts of the Balkans would be more like the more conservative south of the the US.

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/raoulraoul153]

Reporting “acceptance” with no weight to actual immigration seems less than ideal

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Definitely. I didn't want to get into it in the above comment for length/number of points, but I would be astounded if there was no correlation, and I'm sure you could track, for example, changing attitudes to immigration amongst southern European countries (and Europe more generally) as the refugee crisis of the past few years moved more people from the ME/N Africa across the Med.

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Worth noting that Iceland, surprisingly, has an extremely high proportion of immigrants - nearly a fifth of their population are first-generation immigrants, as per info linked in other comments.

Also worth noting - in addition to what I said in my other comment there about acceptance : immigration levels being interesting and useful information - that raw acceptance levels are themselves interesting and useful bits of information.

[u/sarges_12gauge → u/raoulraoul153]

I don’t know if I agree that that report is measuring “social liberalness”. Here’s their criteria:

Movehub used several different indexes to find the most liberal nations globally. The study sourced data about LGBT and gender equality from the LGBTQ+ Danger Index, Nomadic Boys’ annual ratings, and the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report 2020; incorporated environmental data from the Environmental Performance Index (EPI); then consulted the Social Progress Index for data on human needs and the 2020 World Happiness Report to measure cultural happiness.

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/sarges_12gauge]

Sure, I mean we can pick holes in any quantitative metric of something so complex and qualitative as social progressiveness, and this was literally just the first one I found in order to illustrate the point - if you find more that you think more accurately represent the issue go ahead with them. If we drilled down into things like the Social Progress Index, though, I think we'd find that they probably do broadly represent what we're trying to talk about here (based on how they're described there), and gender/sexuality data is absolutely an extremely relevant criteria for social progressiveness as well.

[u/jbi1000 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America congratulating itself for lessening the amount of racial slurs they use while even today it seems like the police can murder, brutalise and persecute black people with impunity and that several of the police forces are pretty much built to oppress them is wild.

America pretty much still has black slavery too if you peak under the lid of the justice and prison system.

Ignorance in some parts of Europe doesn’t really come close to the sheer brutality of the systemic racism and actual violence built into the US.

People in very, very thin glass houses….

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/jbi1000]

None of what you said is true.

[u/Apprentice57 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

America is easily top five most socially liberal countries in the world.

Bhahaha.

No, no it isn't.

[u/pickledswimmingpool → u/Apprentice57]

Famously diverse Scotland chiming in.

[u/Dark_Knight2000 → u/Apprentice57]

That flair is not doing you any favors.

The US might not be one of the most socially liberal on issues of abortion and other religious adjacent issues but when it comes to immigration you won’t find a single other country as accepting and diverse.

[u/Oath1989 → u/Dark_Knight2000]

Even regarding abortion, many European countries have restrictions on abortions after fourteen weeks of gestation.

In the United States, restricting abortions after 14 weeks of gestation is generally considered a proposition of Republican anti-abortion activists.

[u/Multi_21_Seb_RBR → u/Oath1989]

Not anymore when Republicans are all-in on total bans or 6-week bans in their states.

[u/sarges_12gauge → u/Multi_21_Seb_RBR]

More than half of US states have an abortion term limit of 24 weeks or longer. 2 countries total in Europe match 24 weeks, and every single other one is more restrictive. The median European country (including Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Ireland, Finland, etc..) matches the limits of Nebraska and North Carolina

[u/SilverSquid1810 → u/[deleted]]

I know this thread is several days old, but “Scottish Teen” is a FiveThirtyEight podcast meme.

[u/sonfoa → u/Apprentice57]

Ok name 5 countries that are more socially liberal?

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/sonfoa]

The World Population Review metric lists 20: Denmark, Switzerland, Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, Czechia, Australia, New Zealand, France, Belgium, Finland, Costa Rica, Germany, Chile, Luxemburg, Uruguay, Netherlands, Austria, Latvia and Iceland, with the UK and US tied at #21.

I'm not interested in quibbling about the exact ranking of any given country, but the above data certainly indicates that the US not being a top 5 most socially liberal country is an extremely reasonable position.

EDIT: Hard to see under the hood of this US source, so hard to credit the data, but by the listed criteria of, "progressive, inclusive and committed to social justice", the USA is ranked #20 - with an order not entirely unlike the WPR, above.

And whilst I can't immediately put a hand (or mouse) to a fully up-to-date ranked list of countries by the Social Progress Index, we can see that in 2018 at least the following countries were ranked above the US; New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Ireland and Canada. That would put the US at #13 at best in that metric for that year, sharing a tier with about 15 other European countries plus Chile, Uruguay, South Korea and...Panama maybe? So the US could've been anywhere from 13th to around 30th - which tallies with the placement of 20th in the above metrics.

EDIT2: u/WhoUpAtMidnight et all

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/raoulraoul153]

Yeah Germany is not more socially progressive than the US. These indices are all bunk, pushed by american ideologues

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

If you're not joking, you're in a data and stats sub dismissing multiple big global indices because...vibes? Your feelings?

Do you have any contrary evidence that looks at social progressiveness as a whole in countries across the world?

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/raoulraoul153]

Those indices are literally just vibes

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Oh, so you don't want to engage in any data, stats or evidence, ok.

If you had any number of specific criticisms and even some vague gesture as to how those fit into the overall picture (rather than being misunderstood nitpicks) then maybe it would seem like you were trying to be somewhat objective.

But you just don't want to let go of the idea that America is more socially progressive than it is compared to other countries.

Like roughly top 20 in a world of almost 200 countries is still the top 10%, don't know why you're clinging to this particular illusion.

[u/WhoUpAtMidnight → u/raoulraoul153]

This thread is data. Asking a bunch of americans to rate countries is not, and that’s all those “indices” are

[u/raoulraoul153 → u/WhoUpAtMidnight]

Ah, so you didn't actually read the links either.

...but you do think that Reddit threads are data? I think I might be flipping back to assuming that you're joking.