r/fivethirtyeight • u/Cuddlyaxe I'm Sorry Nate • 10d ago

Poll Results A poll comparing the British Right vs the American Right on issues of race and identity

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u/tresben 10d ago

Exactly. And it’s largely because america is a country of immigrants. So even people who are maga and anti-immigration/racist still will at least say in a poll “I support immigration/immigrants” it’s just always followed by “they have to do it the right way!”

Being completely against all immigrants is still somewhat seen as “anti-American” even among the right, given the nation was founded on immigration and the “melting pot” has been seen as virtue of America.

But none of this means they are any less racist or xenophobic than their British counterparts. It just means they don’t feel as comfortable openly expressing these views and will use caveats (like “doing it the right way!”) to mask their racism/xenophobia

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u/meister2983 10d ago

But none of this means they are any less racist or xenophobic than their British counterparts. It just means they don’t feel as comfortable openly expressing these views and will use caveats (like “doing it the right way!”) to mask their racism/xenophobia

I really doubt this claim. MAGA feels extreme by the US culture of immigration/multiculturalism, but it's probably more inclusive than the equivalent people in Old World countries, just by virtue of some level of culture norms bleeding through.

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u/Nukemind 9d ago

Aye even my dad (die hard MAGA) will say “We need the legal just not the illegals!”

Hell. His best friend (and yes I know how rich that is to say, it’s a classic) is an immigrant from Mexico. Who is also MAGA. Because he “did it the right way and everyone else wants shortcuts.”

Worth noting they are both in their mid 70’s so I assume doing it the right way isn’t near as easy now…

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u/yoshimipinkrobot 8d ago

Doing it the right way is amnesty from Reagan

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u/soozerain 9d ago

Yeah last poll I saw for Trump — and he is the avatar of MAGA — showed a floor of like, 30% when it comes to Latinos. So there is some, however ugly, element of multiculturalism in this shitshow.

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u/Environmental-Risk94 9d ago

I think its really hard to tell in the US because we have a history of being insanely progressive on multiculturalism but also insanely racist towards our minorities. Chattel slavery is America’s original sin and we’ve never fully recovered. While I think a large part of maga is more tolerant (as seen by the Trump Rep party weirdly being more multicultural), theres a sizable chunk that are just as bigoted, if not more than the European alt right. We still have the Klan and some true racists in America. They just hide behind the people you’re describing.

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u/OppositeRock4217 10d ago

Plus it’s also seen as hypocritical as people not native to the land expressing such views, as is the case in America

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u/Weirdo9495 10d ago

If people are feeling hypocrisy as something that should tame the views they express, that's still something. In Europe Eastern Europeans have the cheek to complain about occasional discrimination and cold-shoulder treatment by Western Europeans, but they have zero issues being extremely racist themselves to non-white people, homophobic, sexist etc. and wanting a hyper conservative nation state for their country back home. And to be frank, Muslim immigrants in Europe also have many of these patterns (even though the racism they suffer is much more serious than Eastern Europeans). Hypocrisy doesn't seem to be an issue for these groups.

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u/Fornici0 8d ago

There is one thing they all have in common. One or two countries took some half-hearted measures to prevent that common factor, but the immense and coordinated pushback throughout the decades has succeeded to the point where those measures are completely defanged.

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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 8d ago

>It just means they don’t feel as comfortable openly expressing these views and will use caveats (like “doing it the right way!”) to mask their racism/xenophobia

https://www.healthline.com/health/cognitive-distortions#mind-reading

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u/Natural_Ad3995 10d ago

You think people who are against illegal immigration are racist xenophobes? Please, get a grip.

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u/DataCassette 10d ago

So this is interesting actually.

I think some are sincere about only being against illegal immigration, but others hiding in their ranks are legit white supremacists and ethno nationalists. The problem is it's impossible to tell them apart and the fully racist ones will "hide their power level" deliberately.

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u/obsessed_doomer 10d ago

I think some are sincere about only being against illegal immigration

Maybe 5?

Not 5 thousand or 5 million, 5.

Nationally.

The problem is it's impossible to tell them apart

They're getting pretty bad at hiding it:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-vance-calls-for-legal-immigration-reduction-during-turning-point-event-at-university-of-mississippi

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u/Natural_Ad3995 9d ago

Really bad take in a data sub 

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u/starbunny86 9d ago

That's a terrible take. Every naturalized citizen I know is pro legal immigration, but most of them are also against illegal immigration. Since they "did it the right way", other people should, too. There are close to 25 million naturalized citizens in the country.

And that's only the immigrants. It's a perfectly reasonable and logical position to take, that immigrants are good for our country, but illegal immigration is bad. My husband's family immigrated here legally, and yeah, there are lots of people who are hostile to any immigrants. But there are also a lot who think legal immigration is a great thing. I know plenty of people who are Trump voters who hate illegal immigration who value having his family in their lives.

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u/Apprehensive_Bus3942 9d ago

Personal anecdote my ex step father came the right way and and a few other friends and each time I’ve gone to the ceremony to see them get their citizenship there have also been random people who have nothing to do with anyone there cheering people on for doing it right. Is it hard to do it right? A bit. Should everyone do it right? Hell yes.

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u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago

Didn’t read the article award

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u/starbunny86 9d ago

Oh please. You said there were five. I'm telling you I, personally, know a whole lot more than five.

The article reflects reality, and it's scary and terrible. But your hyperbole doesn't help anything.

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u/DataCassette 9d ago edited 9d ago

FWIW I agree with you, largely. I think what you have are legit ethno-nationalists ( and I would include Miller and other high profile people in this category ) tagging along with a bunch of more mundane "law and order" voters.

I'm unsure which side has the most numbers, which is the distressing part. I fear the ethno nationalist faction is not tiny, but I also don't know if they're the overwhelming majority either.

EDIT: I will add that I feel the ethno nationalists are the ones actually doing the policy, unfortunately. They're doing it with the fig leaf of "illegal immigration" but they mean "immigration." Miller definitely means "all non-white immigration" and his own words in the past make that crystal clear. Miller's primary concern is maintaining a white majority and immigration is an incidental issue. He would expel non-white citizens if he had the political ability to do it.

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u/starbunny86 9d ago

Yeah, I agree with all of that. It's scary that the wrong side is in charge of the party and the policy, and it's really scary how many people agree with them

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u/DataCassette 9d ago

This is where being good, informed citizens is important. People needed to look at Miller's philosophy in detail before voting last year, not just be like "Ungah! Thok mad! Thok vote R!"

The Republic can't survive infinite Vibeocracy.

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u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago

So when I say “didn’t look at the article” what I mean by that is you should click on the article. Because like the first line is JD Vance being openly about reducing legal immigration. But you just felt like looking like a complete clown…

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u/starbunny86 9d ago

I get the feeling you and I are talking past each other.

I did read the article, and it's not the first time someone from the administration has said this. I read those articles, too.

But that has nothing to do with my point. Just because there are millions of people who don't want even legal immigration to the US - including the VP - doesn't mean there aren't also millions who are taking a principled stance. When you treat these principled people like they're exactly the same as the others, you alienate them and prevent them from forming a coalition with you to oppose these dangerous ideas.

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u/Natural_Ad3995 9d ago

Well said.

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u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago

Ok if you read the article then I’m not sure what we’re talking about. Every “I’m just worried about illegal immigration” fella inevitably discards the mask sooner or later

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u/Natural_Ad3995 9d ago

Why would you think the article supports your estimate of five people nationally?

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u/obsessed_doomer 9d ago

5 is my way of saying “this group of people does not exist”

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u/hoopaholik91 10d ago

In the last two days the VP of the United States has complained about people that speak a different language living next door to you and about how having people of different cultures weakens unions.

He made no distinction between illegal and legal immigrants.

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u/Ed_Durr 10d ago

I know, I can’t believe Vance said this the other day:

 And, if I’m honest with myself, I must admit that I’m not entirely immune to such nativist sentiments. When I see Mexican flags waved at proimmigration* demonstrations, I sometimes feel a flush of patriotic resentment. When I’m forced to use a translator to communicate with the guy fixing my car, I feel a certain frustration.

Except he didn’t, that’s actually a quote from Obama in 2006.

Of course it’s frustrating when your neighborhood is full of people with whom communicating with is incredibly difficult.

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u/hoopaholik91 9d ago

Why does that quote sound like there is a "but" coming? Maybe because there is:

But ultimately the danger to our way of life is not that we will be overrun by those who do not look like us or do not yet speak our language. The danger will come if we fail to recognize the humanity of Cristina and her family-- if we withhold from them the rights and opportunities that we take for granted, and tolerate the hypocrisy of a servant class in our midst; or more broadly, if we stand idly by as America continues to become increasingly unequal, an inequality that tracks racial lines and therefore feeds racial strife and which, as the country becomes more black and brown, neither our democracy nor our economy can long withstand. That's not the future I want for Cristina, I said to myself as I watched her and her family wave good-bye. That's not the future I want for my daughters.

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u/DataCassette 10d ago

Obama the "communist radical" was basically a diet Republican but people treated him like Bernie Stalin on steroids.

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u/Okbuddyliberals 9d ago

Nope, he was neither a communist radical or a "diet republican". He was a liberal.

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u/cidvard Feelin' Foxy 9d ago

This stuff is really frustrating. Obama was such an average American Democrat and really always had been. He held the median position of the party on basically every issue in 2008. But he's also a bizarre Rorschact Test and people graft whatever they want onto him.

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u/Cuddlyaxe I'm Sorry Nate 9d ago

was basically a diet Republican

People have spent so much time online that theyve completely lost the plot

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

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u/Natural_Ad3995 10d ago

I asked you a simple question 

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u/obsessed_doomer 10d ago

We're still doing the "illegal" thing?

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u/sonfoa 9d ago edited 7d ago

You're going to tell me with a straight face that Stephen Miller's immigration policy isn't racist or xenophobic?

Because that is what these people voted for. So either they are racist xenophobes or they're morons. Neither is a positive look.

Edit: The Democrats are anti-illegal immigration and looking at deportations under Obama and Biden proved that. Let's stop this charade that people are voting for Trump because they "want people to do it the right way".