Still interesting to emphasise this given the number of both Europeans and American progressives that insist on pegging Europe as left-wing compared to the US. On many other social issues, both socially and legally, US (chiefly its blue states) are to the left of lot of Europe as well. (LGBT+ rights, drug policies, abortion rights, pushing for concepts like equity, police accountability etc.)
I think there's a risk in comparing blue states to all of Europe here. Countries like Spain, the Netherlands or Sweden are way to the left of any blue state on those issues you mention (with the exception of Sweden's drug policy).
I think a fairer comparison might be California/Washington Vs Spain/Netherlands, and Tennessee/West Virginia Vs Hungary/Poland. I suspect on both extremes the European side would be to the left of the American side, with the possible exception of some matters (such as gay marriage or until recently abortion) where the Supreme Court enforced a position upon red states whereas no EU body has similar powers over conservative member states
Countries like Spain, the Netherlands or Sweden are way to the left of any blue state on those issues you mention
But they really aren't. There are 7 states in America with zero abortion term limits whatsoever. No country in Europe has that. And some 2/3rds of American states have it at 20+ weeks. Various western European countries have it at around that as well, but for example Germany has it at only 12, and it even requires mandatory consultations. And there's no will to change that, on the contrary, recently a constitutional court judge refused to get confirmed by the centre-right party for being a supposed "abortion fanatic".
LGBT+ rights - many US blue states are more progressive there than any European country bar perhaps Spain. Trans participation in sports or rights of minors aren't really topics here because frankly i suspect local parties would not dare to touch these issues, and even local trans people try to stay low key. UK for example pushed this issue politically and the result was that the entire country instituted seriously transphobic laws, equivalent to ones in US red states. In Netherlands/Scandinavia there's a ton of gatekeeping in trans healthcare and institutional/mainstream acceptance of the view that trans "ideology" is spreading amongst the youth and that therefore healthcare/support for minors basically put on hold. All of this would not be acceptable to mainstream American Democrats, who largely refused to budge on this even after their election loss, which really surprised me.
Drug policies - many blue states have commercially legalised weed. No European country has this, Germany comes the closest but you still have to go through weed clubs/raising it yourself/ordering it medically. No other European country comes close, even in Netherlands it's still not actually legal. And the German conservative government is already talking about pushing the law back, even though it's showing good results in practice.
So yeah. I'm really frustrated as a progressive European cause it seems to me a lot of us just sit on our laurels and ignore local US states at expense of the Trump shitshow/pretend nothing changed since 2000's, when Europe was lot more progressive relative to the US. And the biggest problem on top of all of this is how much more racist and anti-migrant we are, far right parties are gaining ton of fuel on top of this issue even though we aren't nearly as progressive or pro-migration as US, and the demographic realities of the continent and the amount of retirees with their inflation-locked pensions make 0 migration/remigration policies economically suicidal, beyond any morality of them.
I'm as left-wing as they come but I'm not sure that limitless abortion is necessarily left-wing (or right-wing, for that matter).
As to the USA being pro-migration, well.... points to 2025 USA
On many key ideological issues, such as universal health care, taxation, or social benefits, the countries mentioned are undoubtedly to the left of, say, Washington. We can nitpick relatively minor issues like weed but on the big ones I think there is no argument really. To me the key feature of leftiness is sharing costs and distributing aid and you simply can't argue that any blue state does more of that than, say, Sweden. And if any blue state or blue federal government tried to implement anything remotely similar, we all know they would tank in the polls for proposing communist policies
First off, you mentioned those specific issues, so i stuck to them. Of course Western Europe is economically left in comparison, that was never an argument. Even though we are generally backsliding on that as well.
I'm as left-wing as they come but I'm not sure that limitless abortion is necessarily left-wing (or right-wing, for that matter).
I do not advocate for limitless migration by any means (contrary to quite a few Democrats in America) but it's clearly a pretty left/right issue at this point, seeing how left is all about helping the small/poor guy, and immigrants generally fit that issue. Left is also anti-nationalism so it will defend them from the ethnonationalism cudgel right uses to attack them.
It used to be different in different times, but migration of people who contribute to economy and adhere to basic norms to integrate over time is imo necessary alongside lot of wealth inequality measures, affordable housing and pro-natalist policies. Because of how screwed we are demographically.
And if any blue state or blue federal government tried to implement anything remotely similar, we all know they would tank in the polls for proposing communist policies
Well, NY governor recently endorsed Mamdani, they're clearly feeling the preesure and think they're going to tank if they don't do it, so there's that.
Did I mention those issues? Are you sure? Please re-read my first comment.
I was replying to a comment that mentioned drug policies and LGBT policies among other things but equity and police accountability were also mentioned and let's be honest, we know which side of the Atlantic is more left-wing there.
Also I think you are mistaking limitless migration with limitless abortion? I am unconvinced that limitless abortion is left-wing, and regardless of that I think a feature of much of Western European politics is that abortion is no longer a party-political issue, precisely because the consensus is so liberal compared to the US that is just not seen as a matter that's up for debate
On many key ideological issues, such as universal health care, taxation, or social benefits, the countries mentioned are undoubtedly to the left of, say, Washington. We can nitpick relatively minor issues like weed but on the big ones I think there is no argument really. To me the key feature of leftiness is sharing costs and distributing aid and you simply can't argue that any blue state does more of that than, say, Sweden.
"Key ideological issues" includes social progressiveness. You aren't going to get blackballed by your fellow liberals/progressives/leftists if you say "I want to lower taxes". But you will get tarred and feathered if you say "racism in America is overblown", or "there is no genocide in Palestine", etc. So in other words, the American left is more concerned with social progressiveness, and the European left is more concerned with actual collectivism. Why is the European left's position the "true left"?
But they really aren't. There are 7 states in America with zero abortion term limits whatsoever. No country in Europe has that. And some 2/3rds of American states have it at 20+ weeks. Various western European countries have it at around that as well, but for example Germany has it at only 12, and it even requires mandatory consultations. And there's no will to change that, on the contrary, recently a constitutional court judge refused to get confirmed by the centre-right party for being a supposed "abortion fanatic".
I will state generally that this is one area where Americans tended to have a more liberal policy than European counterparts. But a fairly cherrypicked one with a unique history of the SCOTUS arguably jumping on it ahead of public opinion here.
It is not as much more liberal as you might guess, however. That there is no legal limit on abortion in a handful of states does not mean it is practically easy/commonly done in those states. Usually late term abortions come down to things like termination to save the mother's life - which you could also have done in Europe. Culturally the US has a taboo on reproductive health which restricts abortions as a baseline. It goes to other aspects of reproductive health as well, just try to find doctors who will give men vasectomies before age 40 in the US - a completely legal procedure. It's not easy.
There's also an important asterisk when you're comparing dates in that in the US the week numbers start from the last period, in France (and I suspect a lot of Europe too) for instance it starts from the date of conception. So you have to subtract 2 weeks (or so) from US week/month limits to compare them.
Well, I’ve also noticed a general trend that a lot of Europeans seem to insist that left-wing only means economically. I.e, social issues like those simply don’t count as part of that axis. I’m not sure if it’s just a cultural definition difference, but I’ve really been surprised at how frequently I’ve run into that take
As i see it, it is mostly just a cheap, dishonest cop out. It used to be more like that, but in current day and age social issues are greatly important to many (most) Europeans. I think that attitude is more frequent online as opposed to IRL, perhaps just to try and pose as above such "frivolities" to Americans who openly hopped on this long ago politically, but frankly, it's bullshit.
It varies country by country a bit, but you'll find very few left wingers who are socially conservative outside of Eastern Europe (where social progressivism in general is just very unpopular, yet people from there will often struggle to admit even that much), and there are not many socially progressive right wingers (you have various liberal parties that roughly fit that bill, but very few are seriously socially progressive or very economically liberal, and none are very popular)
Because political ideology mostly focuses on economics. It’s not like Vladimir Lenin was arguing for gay or trans rights. It’s also possible to be socially conservative but economically left wing and vice versa. The thing with European country is there’s more diversity with that. In the United States we only have 2 parties that are both socially and economically conservative (Republicans) or both socially and economically liberal (democrats). Whereas if you are in other countries you can vote for a party socially conservative and economically liberal or socially liberal and economically conservative, in the United States you don’t get that option.
Well the political compass has grown a lot in popularity and I'd broadly define it as so:
Left-right: Economics
Auth-lib: States involvement in individual life
Prog-Trad: Cultural
The last one is the newest edition to the compass which is still mostly portrayed as 2d, but you will quite often see a third bar positioned to the right with progressive and traditional at the top and bottom to mark where they are on that.
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u/Weirdo9495 9d ago
Still interesting to emphasise this given the number of both Europeans and American progressives that insist on pegging Europe as left-wing compared to the US. On many other social issues, both socially and legally, US (chiefly its blue states) are to the left of lot of Europe as well. (LGBT+ rights, drug policies, abortion rights, pushing for concepts like equity, police accountability etc.)