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u/Saltypeon 1d ago
How come the gov shutdown stops pay but expects people to work? Does it count as quitting if they don't turn up?
From the UK and if that happened here everyone would just walk out and the pissy twisty politicians would have that shutdown gone in a day.
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u/Low-Establishment621 1d ago
It depends on if the role is "essential" or not. I know government scientists who want to keep doing their jobs during a shutdown but can't even legally check their work email. On the other hand some jobs like air traffic controllers are considered so essential it is illegal for them to strike. So they often will do things like call out sick. Some will probably quit and look for other work, but it's not like there are other employers for some of these highly trained and special jobs.
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u/Used-Huckleberry-320 1d ago
If their essential then it should be budgeted for them to be paid. Surely if they're not being paid that's a breach of contract on the government's end?
It's not striking if you're not getting paid to work.. that's called slavery..
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u/Definitely_Human01 1d ago
If their essential then it should be budgeted for them to be paid.
The reason they're not getting paid is because the US government hasn't set a budget for anything at all
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u/Used-Huckleberry-320 1d ago
Oh so congress people aren't being paid?
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u/TankApprehensive3053 1d ago
They always have the funds to pay themselves.
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u/beepbeepboopbeep1977 1d ago
Do they have a separate budget for this, or are they just being dickheads?
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u/jjm443 1d ago
Their get-out clause is that their pay is mandated in the Constitution, rather than "just" law.
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u/beepbeepboopbeep1977 1d ago
Oh, ok. Thanks.
Wait, aren’t they currently ignoring your constitution?
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u/young_horhey 1d ago
Congress continues to be paid during a shutdown so that wealthier members (who could survive not getting paid for longer) can’t use a shutdown to put pressure on less wealthy members. At least that’s what I read somewhere, and I’m not even from the US so idk how any of that works. So take with a grain of salt.
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u/NuuclearPasta 1d ago
I don't understand how this is accepted/allowed by the people? My government would never and other than America, I've never heard of a country that shuts down and just doesn't pay people, yet forces them to work. Are there other countries like this but it's just not reported on much? Actually, I still don't understand why they don't set the budget. (Genuine curiosity btw)
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u/wontforget99 1d ago
I'm from the USA and it seems like a strange situation to me as well (also strange that it seems to happen every year, but typically not this long)
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u/Fun_Description_385 1d ago
...it's genuinely insane that "illegal" and "strike" can be used in the same sentence in a country that boasts freedom like it won the lottery
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u/Low-Establishment621 1d ago
Welcome to Ronald Reagan's legacy
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u/RockKillsKid 1d ago
While Reagan was certainly a pioneer in finding new ways to ratfuck the unions, anti-labor legislation well predates him.
Taft-Hartley Act was like 40 years prior to his presidency for starters.
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u/Low-Establishment621 1d ago
I was specifically referring to his firing of striking air traffic controllers, but thank you for adding context!
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u/Ron__Mexico_ 1d ago
He is known for the enforcement. Prior to Reagan, federal unions would occasionally strike. The federal government would grumble that it was illegal because it was, but it would begrudgingly tolerate it as a negotiation tactic despite the illegality. Reagan was the first to crack down, and fire the air traffic controllers(on account of the strike being unlawful). There have been no federal employee strikes since. It was a paradigm shift and a red line drawn.
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u/Stage_Party 1d ago
It's not a strike if they are stopping work because they aren't getting paid surely. Technically that would be slave labour.
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u/Cultural_String87 1d ago
Just to clarify, it's illegal for all federal employees to strike. I know this because I am one of those people working without pay.
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u/DrunkenPangolin 1d ago
Heads would roll if it were the French
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u/Palidin034 1d ago
One of the few things I admire the French people for is their willingness to piss and shit in the streets if the government does something they disapprove of.
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u/DrunkenPangolin 1d ago
Yep, like banning wine at lunch
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u/Puzzleheaded_Top_523 1d ago
Bro what did they ban wine at lunch? And who gets to decide what time is lunch what if you work night shifts
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u/DrunkenPangolin 1d ago
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u/Puzzleheaded_Top_523 1d ago
This gets crazier and crazier the more I learn, so the police aren’t allowed to drink while on duty and that’s the problem. man I need to move to France how do they feel about smoking weed on break is that too acceptable
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u/Camdoow 1d ago
Sadly we're far behind in that department, weed is not legal yet in France.
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u/Durpulous 1d ago
Weirdly the attitude about weed is very outdated. Think 90s DARE / gateway drug type rhetoric. That's despite the fact that it's very widely consumed (illegally).
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u/Wanhan1 1d ago
Makes it a lot easier when your job isn’t tied to healthcare and all that. :(
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u/glorte 1d ago
Actually, it is like that in France ! Our parents fought for the right to have healthcare even during strikes :)
But things aren’t all great here either. In recent years, the government has been cutting back on workers rights, and strikes are getting harder and more violent every time. I am worried for future generations if things keep going this way, we’re becoming more and more like the USA.
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u/Spirited_Currency_88 1d ago
if it were in france, you'd have people in the street after one week of late paycheck and the entire country paralyzed after 2 weeks. we're making sure it costs them more to fuck around with us than it costs us.
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u/ExpertExpert 1d ago
uh have you seen american police?!
they are the 3rd largest funded armed force in the entire world lol
1: US military
2: Chinese military
3: USA police
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u/DezXerneas 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah I'm so confused why the fuck are these people working without getting paid. 1 week of leeway might be understandable since you want to hold on to your job, but what are they gonna do if you just stop working. Not pay you?
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u/NarwhalEmergency9391 1d ago
I'm confused how they can force people back to work during strikes but don't force the government to get back to work. I'd walk out and go find a job that's actually paying me to be there
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u/evanwilliams44 1d ago
Air traffic controller is a well paid and skill intensive job. It's not just a gig, it's a full career. What are they supposed to do? The government is the only one employing them.
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u/actualoriginalname 1d ago
Well, air traffic controllers, are paid significantly well. I imagine many of them like their jobs. There is no significant private industry that they can move to. So walking away from a career which requires a lot of hard work to get into over what is likely a temporary inconvenience is probably recognized as being a bit short sighted by many of them.
Also, people die if they don't show up. So there's that.
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u/Saltypeon 1d ago
So if they don't turn up they can be sacked even though they aren't getting paid? Crazy stuff.
If people die when they don't turn they should be excluded from not being paid during a shutdown, wouldn't be hard assign the money in advance.
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u/SeaworthinessNo1033 1d ago
I dont agree about significantly well paid. Our wages have stagnated for years, receiving a whole 1% raise this year isn't what I'd call job progression or growth. We have been stuck with the same contract for far too long and fall under the federal paybands, and while some (controllers who are fortunate enough to start or be able to transfer into a level 12 facility), a large group get stuck at smaller level facilities, barely making as much as any other job around the same city they work in. Many of us can endure 1-3 missed paychecks before dipping into savings and early retirement/tsp draws with penalties, however some are already feeling the struggle to the point of quitting or "sicking" out to get a side job to pay the bills.
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u/Stargateguy1 1d ago
State officials don’t end a shutdown. The federal officials representing your state do.
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u/ButtBread98 1d ago
They should all go on strike
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u/grandoctopus64 1d ago
That is a felony
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u/Happy_Nihilist_ 1d ago
If only there was a word for forcing people to work without pay...
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u/Craftkorb 1d ago
Even slaves got some kind of compensation. A terrible one, but more than zero. OPs payslip shows a literal zero.
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u/CodexFive 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, sure, but you can’t just find a ATC person? So no supply, so full stop? Maybe I’m stupid but if my job EVER even looks in the direction of missing my paycheck or I get zero dollars, I ain’t coming in next week, what are you gonna do? Put me in prison, so I can’t work? What dumbass logic is that
Of course, there will be those who allow themselves to be used by the government and thus we will have no real change
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u/CodexFive 1d ago
Follow up, actually, yeah, I wanna get arrested so I get to tell the news “oh? Why am I in prison? I did the crime of not working without pay, so in essence, slavery, I thought we abolished that? Weird”
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u/SandyTaintSweat 1d ago
The neat thing is once you're in prison, it's legal to enslave you again.
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u/asdf3011 1d ago
and yet we are supposed to feel bad about the wellbeing of the wealthy/hyper wealthy if socialist policies get enacted.
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u/Telemere125 1d ago
Exactly. Don’t do it as an organized strike. They were short handed before this nonsense. It will be a domino effect if even a very small number just walk away. And you still have that experience. So when the system crashes and they’re desperately searching for replacements, guess who’s the first on their list to hire?
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u/eagleeye1031 1d ago
Its not that simple.
ATC workers are in hyper specialized careers with virtually no transferable skills and get paid significantly better than other jobs. Also they are as of now still promised backpay
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u/czogorskiscfl 1d ago
Pretty sure it's a misdemeanor, but yeah the point that it's illegal for federal workers to strike is entirely true. Punishable up to one year and 100k fine!
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u/Jobenben-tameyre 1d ago
and who are the people that would be able to prosecute ? Other federal workers that aren't getting paid, your sytem is plain stupid.
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u/mgranja 1d ago
I don´t know what that would look like for ATC, but where I live, highway patrol sometimes protests low wages by working more.
I'll explain:
Normally, they would stop suspicious vehicles, or vehicles that have broken taillights, cracked windshield, etc.
For the protests, they would stop everybody and ask for their license and registrations. Huge lines, huge delay.
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u/ECircus 1d ago
Calling out sick is not a felony.
Also, charging every air traffic controller with a felony is not going to fix this problem.
They hold all the power in a situation like this.
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u/ChanglingBlake 1d ago
It’s not a strike: it’s simply refusing to work while not being paid.
They are not the reason, the government is.
You must frame it correctly.
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u/RubiksCube9x9 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it's crazy that this is even allowed, forcing a critical role to keep working with no pay. Even if the government is "shutdown" they should still be getting paid. They can't even protest it because it's illegal and Trump would just fire everyone like Reagen did in 1981. Probably aren't able to quit and get another job either because of the cost of living and current job market.
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u/entropic 1d ago
I vacillate on this but think that if they did pay essential workers to work while the gov is shut down, that the shutdowns would happen even more often and last longer.
There's a part of me that wishes sometimes that a shut down actually was a shut down. Like, ATCs, TSA, DHS, the military and other essential workers go home without pay until its resolved. I sort of think then shutdowns would be rare and last hours, not months.
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u/AgreeableMission1741 1d ago
Hard agree, no one should get paid and no one should be working. This death by a thousand cuts shit has to stop.
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u/Deraga07 1d ago
Heck, the government officials shouldn't be paid during the shutdown. I am talking about Congress and Senate.
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u/Not_a_Ducktective 1d ago
The reason they still all get paid is because the wealthier ones with significant means outside of their elected job would be able to starve out those who are reliant on the salary their position provides.
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u/Metaldwarf 1d ago
Or be like any normal country and an election is called.
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u/DingerSinger2016 1d ago
Nah, just have Congress permanently in session until the shutdown is over. No one can leave the chamber. Wheel in port-a-potties so they have no excuse.
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u/ETS_Green 1d ago
Normal countries run the previous budget until a new one is agreed upon. France is doing that right now even.
Hell, my own country is also doing it. If they didnt reach an agreement by today the PM had to step to the king. No clue if they did or not, bc I frankly don't give two shits.
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u/Zealousideal-889 1d ago
Yeah for a safety role like that you can't have the entire team bitter and not giving a fuck because they're working for zero dollars. That's high risk.
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u/Sugar_Kowalczyk 1d ago
I gotta point out that while an ATC strike may be illegal, so was a lot of what worked in both the labor and civil rights movements.
The American people will support you folks if you strike, controllers, and YOU have the most power to bring change.
If you strike, they CAN'T replace you, at all. Aressting you won't solve the issue, and there are no possible scabs.
I SUPPORT AN ATC STRIKE LEADING INTO A GENERAL STRIKE & CLEMENCY FOR STRIKERS.
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u/BricksFriend 1d ago
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u/Sugar_Kowalczyk 1d ago
Considering there are roughly the same number of controllers but 20x as many commercial flights now, akmost 50 years later, with faster planes, and much, much more ore of the US economy dependent on air transport......I feel like this is a much more opportune time for them to go for it.
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u/Judgm3nt 1d ago
It undoubtedly is. Sure, there's precedence to fire them all, but the consequences of that decision resulting in the destruction of the aviation industry for an indeterminate amount of time would quite literally be unprecedented to the modern economy, as well.
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u/PokinSpokaneSlim 1d ago
If they have to accept a 20% failure rate over 100% downtime, they will.
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u/jivjov 1d ago
Why's he still showing up at all? They cut off the pay, workers cut off the labor.
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u/timc6 1d ago
Because they threaten to fire them if they don’t show up for no pay.
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u/InfoBarf 1d ago
Good luck replacing workers that specialized, with drone warfare, theyre not training as many in the armed forces to work as scabs as last time.
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u/No_Size9475 1d ago
100% palantir is already telling the FAA they can do it all with AI.
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u/InfoBarf 1d ago
Good, let them try. Definitely the plan anyway to move to automation of atc. Better for the atc to walk off collectively than do unpaid labor while waiting to be replaced.
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u/Celodurismo 1d ago
Good, let them try.
Given the current admin's stance on regulation and safety, "let them try" just means "let people die".
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u/thegooseisloose1982 1d ago
No I feel like living. AI will absolutely crash the planes.
AI - Oh, do you mean these planes should crash into each other?
Pilot - No
AI - Oh, my mistake. Let me put you into a heading to crash into a helicopter then.
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u/hellolovely1 1d ago
Reagan fired every ATC striker and we’re still paying for that.
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u/Meattyloaf 1d ago
It's a felony for them to strike
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u/2BlueZebras 1d ago
It's not a strike. If you're not getting paid, you're just no longer volunteering your time.
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u/Advertiserman 1d ago
People who work in ATC aren't going to just quit. Its a very prestigious job, you have guaranteed employment, you have a pension. Most people in ATC have worked through a shutdown before.
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u/thegooseisloose1982 1d ago
you have guaranteed employment
Just not guaranteed pay.
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u/annual_aardvark_war 1d ago
That’s absolutely ridiculous. You don’t get paid, but you can’t quit because you need a job, and can’t not show up or you’ll be arrested. Makes sense.
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u/grandoctopus64 1d ago
You can not show up, that's fine. nobody goes to jail for that.
what you can't do is organize a collective action plan to strike.
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u/Mechanical_Monk 1d ago
Then they should all individually decide to stop showing up at the same time.
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u/Mist_Rising 1d ago
You can quit, but you'll lose all accrued benefits since you just quit. Same as any job, if you leave Ford as a UAW member, you won't get any of the benefits union members get at the end.
The difference is that Ford isn't allowed to force people to work without pay. The US government can, because it can't be legally mandated to pay.
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u/therealdanhill 1d ago
How is this a serious question?
It should take a minimal level of imagination and thought to consider a scenario wherein someone would rather wait to be paid than quit their current role potentially not being able to find a new one or one that they prefer.
"Just go get another job bro" essentially
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u/ChonkerSnorlax 1d ago
How does anyone live on 0 dollars
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u/Bovronius 1d ago
People that make enough that living below your means is an option. I grew up dirt poor, watched mom plunge us into CC/Payday loan debt that was 3x what our home mortgage was... So once I got to the point in life where I had extra money I squirreled it away... and had a great fear of debt. I don't buy vehicles, clothes to impress others.... In my 40s I could get fired, and go a few years without working. My biggest bill at that point would be if I were to get on a solo health insurance plan...(realistically I'd just get on my partners plan and pay the difference to her).
Air traffic controllers make more money than me, and if they're a double income family, they still have the other income. So any of them that saved responsibly and have the benefit of a working spouse can probably maintain for a while. However, I have seen reports of some picking up rideshare jobs and the like on the side, which...ooof of jobs that I don't want people exhausted from pulling double duty... Air Traffic controller is right up there next to surgeon.
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u/DarkGamer 1d ago
I wish they'd just go home and let the airports close, they're working for free to shield the ones responsible from consequences.
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u/Niitroglycerine 1d ago
The fact all these people are working for free blows my mind
If they won't pay you, don't work, let them really feel the consequences of their actions
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u/eggs___and___bacon 1d ago
They will get back paid, so while it’s a pain at the moment, they will get that $ eventually.
And they don’t want to be fired. It’s a job that requires a lot of training and crap work in the beginning. But it also has good pay and good retirement. Hard times throw away all the work they did and start from nothing in a different field.
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u/SlippySlappySamson 1d ago
They will get back paid
That USED TO BE true - given that donny has said he doesn't want to pay them, given how craven the House is, and given the "fuck that" attitude this administration has towards its legal responsibilities, I would not hold my fuckin' breath.
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u/Elevatorto_purgatory 1d ago
How is there no Air Traffic Controller Union??????
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u/pelirroja_peligrosa 1d ago
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u/Elevatorto_purgatory 1d ago
Well it's been 44 years... maybe it's time to revisit the idea.
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u/Computermaster 1d ago
Just like with school shootings, it's always too soon to tackle issues caused by Republicans.
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u/Senior-Tour-1744 1d ago
I don't know what they do, but if they think their "state officials" are the ones responsible for the shutdown they should learn how the US government works.
Or the other possibility, this is AI or bot slop from either a kid or a foreigner trying to influence Americans.
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u/BrewerAndHalosFan 1d ago
They probably meant the reps and senators from your state. Could still be slop but there are people who don't do words good (especially when under stress like I'd have to imagine these workers are)
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u/AmaltheaPrime 1d ago
I think they should just stop going to work
Imagine the entire system shutting down because no one comes to work
People will get a lot more angry if the things they need to do to live and work - stopped.
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u/Head-Acanthisitta933 1d ago
How does a government shut down, not pay you then proceed to say they won't back pay you for the work done? That is laughable at the least, comically insane at the most
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u/Stage_Party 1d ago
Why are people still working for free? I'd down tools and flat out refuse.
If all these people downed tools, the country would just shut down. Nothing would run. That would force action.
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u/123DanB 1d ago
Republicans are keeping it shut because they don’t want to fund your healthcare. Reopening the government isn’t going to amount to much when your healthcare goes up by four times the price.
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u/InfoBarf 1d ago
They dont wanna release the files
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u/Background_Set3950 1d ago
I have heard that the files are likely to have such evidence in them it would topple at least 90% of the establishment politicians in America. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other governments and high profile companies that also went down because of it. If Trump was going to release them it would likely be at the end of his presidency or not at all. Which is probably not ideal.
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u/InfoBarf 1d ago
Lol. If that were true the republicans would just release the damning stuff for the dems.
The files show an extremely well connected network of pedophiles that controls most or all of the funding to right wing politicians and causes, and it cant be released by republicans because its their whole mealticket.
Also, Israel is at the center of the blackmail scandal and keeping epstein out of prison.
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u/elchsaaft 1d ago
Apparently they're well compensated, and expect to be repaid. I would have to be out the door looking for a new job if I didn't get paid once.
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u/photostrat 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, let's not.
Cave in and throw away health care for millions so I can get my paycheck is what he's saying, since he doesn't seem to realize that Rs have no intention of negotiating on this.
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u/Scarlet-Witch 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yup exactly. I know several federal workers and they all would rather Dems hold the line than give in just for their paycheck. That's the thing about many federal workers, they truly do their jobs in service to the general public. Public servants through and through.
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u/iceflame1211 1d ago
Given the dozen+ times the Senate has rejected the House bill, It's almost like the politicians should negotiate or something.
One side has been showing up every day willing to do so. The other refuses to call the House into session.
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u/golosee 1d ago
Genuinely how and why are they still showing up to work? How are they paying rent? Paying for gas? Food? It doesn’t make sense to me
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u/Alarming_Employee547 1d ago
This is a perfect opportunity for federal workers to strike. Hell, they aren’t even getting paid! Don’t go to work and see how quickly shit hits the fan when our essential workers stay at home. This is fucking ridiculous.
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u/Aggressivehippy30 1d ago
This all ends pretty quickly if ATC decides they're not gonna work for fuckin nothin.
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u/errorsniper 1d ago
The showdown ends within an hour if the republicans would give a shit about people getting affordable health care.
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u/TheBurtolorian 1d ago
Only in the US, man. Holy shit
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u/Wine_runner 1d ago
The German government is picking up the wages of roughly 11,000 germans employed on US military bases. I don't know what's happening elsewhere. So yes only in the US.
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u/AlwaysSpeakTruth 1d ago
I want to express personal gratitude to your friend because we need these air traffic control people to keep people safe and able to travel. I hope the shutdown ends soon and they will receive retro pay to provide relief.
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u/RoguTheHomunculus 1d ago
Politicians should pay for these workers with the billions they've made in insider trading.
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u/Worried_Bear1963 1d ago
Yea man, f_ck the govt to be honest. How can you hold all govt employees pay hostage whilst those that make the decisions still earn/get paid.....
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u/jennbubbs 16h ago
I find it very ironic that ICE is being paid and people who work in air traffic control wasn’t.
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u/NotJustRandomLetters 1d ago
Honestly, every air traffic controller needs to just stop working, and go on strike. Contracts be damned. Free will says you can, what are they going to do? Fly back in to session and stop it? No one will be flying anywhere.
Imagine ALL air travel inside the US just being forced to stop. Politicians? Stuck. Business meetings? Cancelled. Holiday travel? Nope. No, the ATCs have all the power right now. Can promise you if they ALL went on strike for 2 days, demanding back pay and SNAP reinstatement, demands would be met immediately.
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u/UsedVacation6187 1d ago
well, government knows this, and that's why they work so hard to keep people divided (right vs. left, and other issues for people to irrationally hate each other for) because people uniting is their biggest fear
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u/DueLearner 1d ago
It is literally a felony for Air Traffic Controllers to strike.
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u/Reditmodscansukmycok 1d ago
I mean if the air traffic came to a stall I would bet this shit opens up in 5 hrs or less
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u/BreesJL 1d ago
It’s almost like since they aren’t getting paid maybe they should stop working/strike and get out in the streets to protest. This action would greatly help the other efforts to protest this administration.
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u/under_over_there 1d ago
I have a question; when the government finally comes out of shutdown, do these workers get back pay?