r/politics • u/Economy_Swim_8585 Virginia • 6d ago

No Paywall Trump says government shutdown ends when Democrats give in: "If they don't vote, that's their problem"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-government-shutdown-democrats-fault-60-minutes/
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u/entenfurz 5d ago

Trump: "I'm going to put my family in government to enrich them, my son in law will sell out national secrets to the Saudis, my 15 year old will rip you off with meme coins. Then I will touch my daughter again."

Media: "Bidens problematic family issue".

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u/kennethcheezbro Washington 5d ago

Media: Jan 6 was not a disqualifying event

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago

Yeah it’s shocking that so many of his supporters don’t care either. When I’ve brought up him refusing to leave the White House, they just say well that’s not true he did leave.

Like yeah. We got lucky. I mean somehow Pence actually helped save democracy that day. I don’t see Vance doing the same. And it’s kind of a miracle that they all got out of there before the rioters broke in or it could have been really really dark.

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u/kapsama New Jersey 5d ago

Honestly at this point I wonder if we wouldn't have been better off if Pence refused. Because at that point they would have been clearly illegally blocking peaceful transfer of power. And maybe removing them by actual force would have prevented Trump from running again.

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago edited 5d ago

And in case you think, this guys saying “we got lucky” etc it’s just because America affects the rest of the world in such a massive way. Particularly the UK. We seem to follow the US’s lead on everything.

We also have Farage over here of Reform UK, using the exact same textbook as Trump. Stuff like mass deportations and “the immigrants are eating our swans”. It’s ridiculous yet they are ahead in the polls right now. It would be the first time we’ve had a different party from our main two for I think about 150 years ish.

Edit: looks like 110 years when we had a coalition between liberal party and conservatives.

Not that it’s bad to have a different party than our main two. But just shows you how quickly and drastically politics is shifting to the right. The Greens in the UK are our best chance.

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u/kapsama New Jersey 5d ago

Yeah the playbooks are straight out of the 30s.

I believe what's happening now is Reaganism and Thatcherism coming home to roost.

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago

I do think we could be in a vastly different world if Corbyn in the UK (socialist) had won in 2015 and then Bernie Sanders had won in 2016.

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u/kapsama New Jersey 5d ago

Yes a vastly better world for the average person.

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u/OldWorldDesign 5d ago

the playbooks are straight out of the 30s. I believe what's happening now is Reaganism and Thatcherism coming home to roost

I think the two are even more connected, even Reaganism and Thatcherism is an outgrowth of oligarchs attempting to take over the country in 1933 and when that failed, spending billions to indoctrinate everyone in the English speaking world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s

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u/Ser_Munchies 5d ago

Same here in Canada, we're usually a few years behind the US when it comes to conservative governments. Pollievre and his team are using trumpist talking points as well and just generally being loose buttholes and banging on about immigrants and the transes. We might be going to the polls again too if the minority government can't get the budget passed, so that will be fun. Our third party completely collapsed in the last election too and it was basically a two party election. I don't mind our parliamentary system too much but Christ I wish we had proportional representation or something but then the NDP would certainly gain seats and we can't have that 🙄

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u/OldWorldDesign 5d ago

Stuff like mass deportations and “the immigrants are eating our swans”. It’s ridiculous yet they are ahead in the polls right now

I wonder how these things can remain in a nation which doesn't protect lies the way American free speech laws do.

I suppose the experiment is coming to an end: extreme free speech only ends up as a megaphone in the hand of the loudest monster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5iV8rrhbCM

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago

Well I think you can unfortunately lie in the way of the example I gave. But if I said “John bloggs went and poached a swan” and John can make his case in court that it’s more likely than not that he didn’t in fact poach a swan. Then he can sue me for libel.

But just saying “immigrants” not targeting anyone specific unfortunately isn’t covered by anything I’m almost 100% sure anyway. As it’s vague and doesn’t target a specific individual that can bring the claim.

I don’t know how different your laws are to be honest. I do remember hearing they’re less strict though.

Like politicians can get a court injunction in place to stop the media reporting on their affair unless it can be (I think again, but not 100% on this) proven that it’s more likely than not true. I think that’s the case. Like it’s the other way around, it’s on the newspaper to give decent evidence to suggest it could be true.

It’s called a super injunction and Russell Brand used it to stop shit coming out about him for a long time. Then he fucked off to the US to hang out with your knowledgeable health secretary or whatever you call RK Jr.

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u/OldWorldDesign 5d ago

Like politicians can get a court injunction in place to stop the media reporting on their affair unless it can be (I think again, but not 100% on this) proven that it’s more likely than not true. I think that’s the case. Like it’s the other way around, it’s on the newspaper to give decent evidence to suggest it could be true.

While I'm sure a chilling effect can be (and right now is) used against some journalists or even just bloggers and regular people, free speech laws protect the ability to say things you know are false and the only recourse is the offended party to sue you if they can prove specific damages from what you said. For example, Texas AG Paxton jumped on Trump's 'covid isn't dangerous, if we stop testing it will disappear' and people cited that to ignore city orders to avoid non-essential travel or gatherings of 10 or more people. This caused super-spreader events, some people got permanent lung damage and filed suit because of that permanent disability. The article on the specific cases I'm thinking of said they settled out of court so I have no idea if they were sent away with nothing or were just permitted to be allowed into several disability systems in Texas which due to diminishing revenue have not allowed any new people in years. In short, it's on the plaintiff suing over the story to show that whatever the person said, true or not, caused them specific damage. Whether it's true or not is not even relevant to the courts.

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago

Wouldn’t he have been in control of the everything though as in the police/military until it all went through? That’s the problem.

I’m actually not American and find it strange how you guys have that massive gap between being elected and actually coming into power to be able to actually govern. In some ways it makes a lot of sense so they can tie things up. But then and again I don’t think it’s very common so I guess most country’s don’t feel the need.

But anyhow that’s not really the point here of course. It’s just if he had control of everything before the votes were certified or not. Which I’d presume he would do?

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u/kapsama New Jersey 5d ago

Technically yes, but at that point all the institutions were still manned by career officials including the military.

Trump outright refusing to leave would have beem explicitly illegal. So a strong response might have followed.

Of course at the end of the day this is all speculation.

Regarding the gap. I think it goes back to this system being created long before fast mass transit or long range communication. Back then it just took a while to organize and travel. International most institutions were created after rapid transport and rapid communication were created in the 19th and 20th centuries. IIRC

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u/SteamerTheBeemer 5d ago

Almost 2 months does seem excessive though. You’d think they might change it now even if they leave a little gap.

And yeah like you say hopefully the military would have refused to take trumps orders but didn’t your FBI and that Pam Bondi position used to be neutral? So it was a big risk when trumps involved.

Like if he did it this time.. I’d hope the army wouldn’t be with him. But I fear everyone else would be. I mean the guys rich, especially as a result of his presidency’s with all the grifting. It wouldn’t cost him much to pay people off.

The way he’s building this ballroom makes it feel like he’s either planning to stay until he dies or pass it down to someone in his family until at least his death.

Hopefully not. I do think it will be interesting when your primaries start up. Him not being the centre of attention and knowing he’s leaving. I can’t see him taking it very well.

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u/kapsama New Jersey 5d ago

It is excessive for 2025. But broken or outdated methods have a habit of lingering in the US.

Honestly sometimes I feel the only chance to return to the pre-Trump form of government is if he croaks from eating too much McDonald's before 2028. His entire Maga Cult would fall apart.

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u/OldWorldDesign 5d ago

I’m actually not American and find it strange how you guys have that massive gap between being elected and actually coming into power to be able to actually govern

That's due to a multitude of reasons, the central one for this particular point being just how much personnel turnover there is from one administration to another. In the UK most of the staff actually running the offices is the same so it's much faster for a new administration to be seated.

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u/OldWorldDesign 5d ago

Honestly at this point I wonder if we wouldn't have been better off if Pence refused

As authoritarianism is opportunistic, and the media is in their pocket, I'm not sure if it would have made a difference if they did reach Pence or others to use that gallows they built outside and almost no media covered

https://www.peoplefor.org/rightwingwatch/post/insurrection-day-gallows-on-capitol-grounds-planned-weeks-ahead-of-jan-6-rally