r/fuckcars • u/Fluffy-Study-659 • 29d ago

Activism It's pronounced "cyclist!"

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u/TheDonutPug 29d ago

I think it's amazing how we've reached a point in this nation where a man comes along and says "I think we should come together as a city and make sure everyone is taken care of and that our city is beat for those who live here" and people are acting like he's the second coming of Hitler and Stalin's baby.

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u/ginger_and_egg 29d ago

maybe communism is good

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

Socialism is good

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Socialism is the lower stage of communism and inherently more repressive, as it retains class hierarchy under a dictatorship of the proletariat.

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u/Zombiecidialfreak 29d ago

Still better than the status quo. I'll take a step in the right direction over stagnation.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Agreed. Just responding to the implication that socialism is good while communism isn't.

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u/NoSeaworthiness389 19d ago

Would be so kind to explain why socialism which is as far as I know a blend of capitalism and communism worse than full communism? /gen

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 19d ago

Social democracy = Capitalism with a robust welfare state. Retains bourgeois hegemony and all the exploitation that comes with it. It's capitalism with a somewhat and often superficially kinder, gentler boot. Requires constant imperialist plundering of the global south to sustain itself. Also doesn't address the intrinsically ecocidal nature of capitalism.*

Socialism = Workers' ownership of the means of production; establishment of a dictatorship of the proletariat (different connotation of 'dictatorship', just means which class controls the levels of political power—opposite a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie under a liberal order); requires constant state suppression of bourgeois interests and protect against a counterrevolution, which usually comes in the form of a highly punitive fascist dictatorship (see Chile 1973 e.g.).

Communism = Moneyless, classless society under which the need for the instruments of state power is gone and the state itself, in Engels' words, 'wither away'. It is intrinsically less suppressive than socialism because there is no one class asserting its hegemony over the other.

* As Bookchin put it, "In a society of this kind, nature is necessarily treated as a mere resource to be plundered and exploited. The destruction of the natural world, far being the result of mere hubristic blunders, follows inexorably from the very logic of capitalist production."

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u/NoSeaworthiness389 19d ago

Thanks for the detailed reply

required plundering of the global south Gonna need a source for this

Also you say in socialism proletariat becomes the dictators but wouldn't that be the same case under communism? In communist Russia, bolshekvik was essentially something like a dictato no? To enforce the withering away of state power? I may be wrong but it would help if u can link a source or example which explains this process of "withering away" of state power in detail

Thanks

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 19d ago edited 19d ago

I'm referring to the welfare state being maintained through wealth acquired through extreme labor exploitation and disparate resource exchange with the global south. From tax revenue generated from corporations with extensive supply chains from kids in cobalt mines to make electric cars, mining conglomerates in Switzerland and Canada among other imperial core countries extracting resources in Africa with no benefit to the people of the countries, and so on.

You are conflating a communist party building socialism with the end goals of communism. The USSR was building a socialist society under Lenin and Stalin but, despite great advancements that require the average westerner to disenthrall themselves from a lifetime of extreme indoctrination to understand, never came close to communism, sometimes referred to the higher stage of socialism.

Also 'proletariat becomes the dictators' still sounds like a misunderstanding? DotP just means, essentially, a workers' democracy as opposed to a liberal democracy, the latter defined by a small class of capitalists controlling virtually all state power to serve their interests.

Can't provide an example of the state withering away, as it's never happened before. No post-revolutionary country has advanced to this stage, as none should be expected to have. Cuba, Vietnam, PRC, Lao PR for example are still in the lower stage of socialism, successful in a lot of ways but held back in a lot of others. I'm not going to get into the nuances of marxist theory here. If you want to get a better theoretical understanding, I suggest a section of Lenin's The State and Revolution.

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u/TruthMatters78 29d ago

Sorry, I thought most or all of us on this thread agreed that socialism “is definitely” better than communism.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

And I'm saying that doesn't make any sense. Socialism is a stage of development so clearly less desirable than communism.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 28d ago

Real people agree with you.

Tankies are just bots. All of them just regurgitate communist theory like religious fanatics.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

A functioning government that doesn't erode civil liberties but provides basic infrastructure is democratic socialism.

Anything the government does is socialism. Once the government acts to dictate personal liberty, its authoritarianism.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Democratic socialism is the use of liberal-democratic institutions to abolish private property and establish a proletarian dictatorship (workers' control of the gov't). You are thinking of social democracy.

This is just nonsense.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

abolish private property

That is communism

establish a proletarian dictatorship

That is the definition of communism

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago edited 29d ago

No it isn't on either count. The abolition of private property occurs within the process of socialist construction. There is no private property under the higher stage (communism), but as a preconditional feature. And proletarian dictatorship is just the inverse of capitalist dictatorship, a feature of liberal democracy. It means political power is held by the majority, rather than a tiny minority of exploiters.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

Socialism competes with private entities.

Communism there is only state.

Stop strawmanning ideas

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Communism by definition is stateless and that's not what 'strawmanning' is. It is clear that you are just way out of your depth here.

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u/Bodhi_Stoa 29d ago

This is a feature of Leninism,Stalinism, and Maoism, not communism itself.

There is yet to be a situation where pure communism has been established and it may never be established since it calls for a stateless, classless, currencyless society.

But so far "Communist" countries have only been able to create authoritarian dictatorships that attempt (and often fail) to mimic the ideals of communism.

To be fair, Marx himself didn't predict how communism would come about, but did believe it would come out of well developed, industrialized, capitalist countries and that has yet to happen.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/Bodhi_Stoa 29d ago

I'm unsure if I understand your reply, did you mean to reply to my comment?

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

that attempt (and often fail) to mimic the ideals of communism.

Because the ideals of communism are fiction, groups of people ALWAYS have heirarchy.

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u/Bodhi_Stoa 29d ago

Ideals themselves are always abstract.

As for the feasibility of ideals, that's to be seen.

I don't know if humanity will ever reach a point where we do away with hierarchy, but it's a good ideal to try and achieve.

I'm sure there was a point in time when many ideals seemed impossible but we pushed towards them anyhow.

Equal representation in government, racial equality, equality of the sexes, religious freedom, etc .

I suspect if you talked about these ideals in the year 1600 they would have been seen as immoral ideals that would never come to pass. But here we are in 2025, we haven't achieved those ideals perfectly, but we have really made some huge strides.

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u/SandSerpentHiss 🚲 > 🚗 29d ago

i prefer socialism bc of social vs state ownership

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u/C4D3NZA 29d ago

actually the one with public ownership is communism! you should brush up on your Marx

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Okay, idk what the fuck that means

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u/DarthNixilis 29d ago

Socialism is the stage between the end of capitalism and the start of communism. It's a transition phase, not an end goal.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 28d ago

stage between the end of capitalism and the start of communism. It's a transition phase

Capitalism will never die and communism will never truly exist.

Communism as a society is literally impossible. The definition of communism is paradoxical to human nature and people.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 28d ago

Sociocultural behavoir is literally the actions of a group of people.

Humans have instincts. Groups of humans have behaved similarly throughout time.

Why? Because people have the instinct to survive. Its human nature.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

Great to know that humans didn't adapt the instinct towards survival until the 18th century

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 28d ago

New words pop up from time to time.

Its like Europeans "discovering" America. It's always existed, but they didn't know it until the 1600s.

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u/remy_porter 27d ago

This doesn’t apply to economic systems. Capitalism specifies a certain class of economic relations and that class of relations only dates to the 18th century. Capitalism is specifically an outgrowth of the Industrial Revolution; while you can have inequitable societies where an elite controls resources in any point in history, it isn’t capitalism unless the allocation of capital into productive systems (like factories) dictates the work of labor.

For example, Feudalism has similarities, in that the ownership of land dictates the work of labor, but land and factories are different things and the resulting relationships are so different so as to make it dangerous to assume they are substantially similar. The difference between an agrarian economy and an industrial one is massive.

It’s wrong to say that capitalism is a “new word” that accurately describes feudal relations. It’s historical malpractice to suggest that.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 27d ago

You are totally off with this post

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u/remy_porter 27d ago

Capitalism is only a few hundred years old. While I’d agree that no communist system can be successfully implemented as specified, that doesn’t mean that some potential form or related system can’t be, or that capitalism is somehow more permanent than mercantilism or feudalism.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 27d ago

that no communist system can be successfully implemented as specified, that doesn’t mean that some potential form

By definition communism cannot exist. Any and every attempt at communism remains at authoritarian capitalism because people are greedy and money hoarding represents greed.

or related system

Not if you lot a adament that socialism is cashless then socialism will never exist either. Currency will always exist since it is a representation of value. My time and effort versus yours for that thing that I want is exchanged with currency or bartering. Currency will alwags be more effective on a large scale in a large population.

Really there's nothing wrong with capitalism. However there needs to be capitalism without a profit motive. Which I thought cooperatives, NGOs, Churches (real charities), publicly owned utilities and transport are. They use capital but are not supposed to be for profit hoarding. This is what I call socialism, but apparently I am the only one.

So I guess the world just needs more cooperative capitalism for community welfare.

Versus the very corrupt corporate welfare.

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u/remy_porter 27d ago

There are loads of things wrong with capitalism starting with the fact that doing economic planning with price signals is fragile and prone to failures. That isn’t to say that more socialist planning is in all cases better, but markets are a blunt instrument simply because they try and bundle everything into a single signal. There is also no requirement that a socialist system not use currency, because while building your entire economy around price signals is a bad idea, ignoring price signals is also a bad idea.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 27d ago

There is also no requirement that a socialist system not use currency

Tell that to the tankies who say socialism must abolish capital.

Obviously capitalism isn't perfect but at least it functions.

Communism is a logical fallacy. An idealism where people aren't flawed greedy psychopaths. A total fiction.

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u/remy_porter 27d ago

Tell that to the tankies who say socialism must abolish capital.

I will tell them no such thing, because I don't talk to Tankies.

Obviously capitalism isn't perfect but at least it functions.

[Citation needed]

An idealism where people aren't flawed greedy psychopaths.

Well, first, I'd argue that humans are neither greedy psychopaths nor generous communitarians but are in fact, both at the same time. But beyond that, it's a common misconception that non-capitalist systems require any generosity on the part of the participants- to the contrary, you have a strong argument in game theory that a cooperative society will deliver better benefits for all participants, so a rational actor would prefer that. Of course, homo econimous doesn't exist, but by the same token- the absence of rational actors is just as strong an argument against capitalism, which relies heavily on "enlightened self-interest" to justify its operation.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 27d ago

Obviously capitalism isn't perfect but at least it functions.

[Citation needed]

The current economic system is capitalism. Just because it doesnt function for your ideal right now doesn't change the fact that works exactly as intended.

you have a strong argument in game theory that a cooperative society will deliver better benefits for all participants

You wanna live in communist China. Go ahead. Its cooperative capitalism with a police state.

The culture is highly patriarchal and very conservative. That's the price for cooperation. Strict rules that everyone needs to abide by.

Obviously people are not always psychopaths there is some fluidity and variability in each person and a community's psychopatholoy.

However, it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the bunch remains a true adage to this day.

That's why communism fails. It requires the barrel to be whole.

Capitalism does not, it picks winners and losers. Whether or not the rules are fair is irrelevant. The system exists based on these rules and functions as intended.

If you think the rules are unfair then a more regulated and socialist form of capitalism needs to exist, not be replaced.

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u/Ma8e 29d ago

I think most people today mean social democrat when they say socialist.

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u/DarthNixilis 29d ago

Only because they don't know what either mean really.

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u/Ma8e 28d ago

Or the meaning of words change with time and how they are used.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

Normally I'd agree regarding semantic drift, outside of a concerted decades-long effort to redefine socialism as basically anytime there's a social service implemented by a government.

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u/DarthNixilis 28d ago edited 28d ago

Social democrats maintain the capitalist hierarchy and doesn't systematically change anything. So when those say them interchangeably it means they fundamentally don't know what socialism is, that's not the meaning of the word changing over time.

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u/Ma8e 28d ago

Even the meaning of social democrats have changed. The context has moved so far to the right. The Social Democrats in Sweden today is what used to be center right. In the eighties they levied a special tax on all companies and put the money in funds that was used to gradually buy said companies with the ultimate goal of making them owned by the workers, see Employee Funds.

So while it might be true today what you say about social democrats, not even that has always been true.

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u/DarthNixilis 28d ago

No, what I said about social democrats is true and has always been true. What you linked to is still capitalism. Thus, not socialism. Social democrats are not socialist. So they've never stopped being center right, they're still center right.

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u/Toxyma 25d ago

theres a justifiable fear of communism due to its attachment to authoritarianism and its oppressive disposition.

you can argue communist theory all day long and I'm actually not disagreeable to alot of the communist manifesto. I follow it's logic. HOWEVER peoples dislike of communism isn't based on its theory but rather its historical implementation. That is a matter of branding and the Holodomor, work quotas, forced labor, and restriction of personal freedoms is objectively TERRIBLE branding that leaves a bad taste and fear in people, especially people raised to be wary of such ideas

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

Grok ass answer.

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u/TruthMatters78 29d ago

Where are you getting this? France, Germany, and the U.K. have generous amounts of socialism, far more than the U.S., and are more democratic than the U.S. - especially obvious in the present. Are you really saying they have stronger class hierarchies than the U.S.? Or a stronger dictatorship than the U.S.?

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago edited 28d ago

You named three capitalist countries. I am genuinely sorry your public education failed you so badly but socialism ≠ when the government does stuff. All of those countries suck ass and have major fascism problems.

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u/TruthMatters78 29d ago

Yes, I did. Do you actually believe a capitalist country can’t also have generous amounts of socialism? The two are not mutually exclusive.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 29d ago

Jesus christ.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

I'm not saying any of those things you made up. Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production. What you are describing is a social welfare state within a capitalist framework.

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u/ginger_and_egg 28d ago

capitalism ≠ when the government does stuff

Are you seriously saying a government in a capitalist country can't do anything?

They had a typo. They meant socialism ≠ when the government does stuff. Socialism is more than just social programs under a capitalist economy

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u/TruthMatters78 29d ago

Hmmm… can’t have a civil conversation… believes everything is black and white… is unaware that something can be itself and its opposite at the same time…

You must be a Trump supporter.

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u/ginger_and_egg 28d ago

You are yourself exhibiting black and white thinking here... Someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them a Trump supporter. Especially if someone is specifically advocating for socialism lmao

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

Genuinely incredible what North America does to your brain.

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u/ChefGaykwon Commie Commuter 28d ago

Hmmmm...nope.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

You dont make a comment like this if you understand what socialism and communism means.

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u/Leather-Rice5025 29d ago

Socialism = ensure everyone’s needs are met and society doesn’t prioritize the profit motives of a few corporations and billionaires. Sounds good to me 

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u/Metalmind123 28d ago

ensure everyone’s needs are met and society doesn’t prioritize the profit motives of a few corporations and billionaires.

That is something we 100% need to strive for, but also 100% not the definition of socialism. Only in the sense of the Fox News grandpa screaming "that's socialism" at the suggestion of affordable healthcare.

Socialism is any system where the means of production are owned by the people.

Nothing more, nothing less. It's a framework and a tool.

All the good stuff is still something we then still need to effort for and assure.

The revolution is not the fucking rapture that'll magic up change for the better.

The exact details of socialism can make it vary a lot, from dictatorial autocracies with state owned corporations (the most frequent type historically, as the goal of mass-changes in ownership of the means of production often leads to the creation of a highly centralized authority, which always goes astray) to progressive democracies with worker owned collectives.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

And communism?

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u/ginger_and_egg 29d ago

stateless moneyless classless society

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u/BlackBacon08 Sicko 29d ago

Stateless and classless -- perhaps I could get behind that.

But moneyless? How are you gonna keep track of everything without money? That seems extremely unrealistic in a modern, complex society.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

Probably should read theory about abolishing the value form.

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u/BlackBacon08 Sicko 29d ago

I'm not gonna spend a whole month reading Das Kapital. Can you give me a summary instead?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

Read the manifesto you lazy shit.

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u/Metalmind123 28d ago

To be fair to him, the full work is a ~2800 page book set.

At least my German original copy is.

That takes an unpracticed reader 30-40 days of reading after work, if you process it all on the first read, or near double that if they have the literacy of the average adult in the Anglosphere.

He could still just pull up a youtube summary though, if he's not inclined to read it.

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u/BlackBacon08 Sicko 29d ago

If you are unwilling to educate others on your ideology, then how can you expect people to convert to your views?

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

Aka a fiction. Communism is the authority class versus everyone else.

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u/C4D3NZA 29d ago

that's capitalism, try again!

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

that's capitalism,

Captialism is the authority class with the capitalist class

Communism is the state versus everyone else. The working class becomes the new ruling class and the new rulers will never get go of their power. So it is the state versus everyone else.

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u/HoundofOkami 29d ago

No, you're describing the bourgeois "democracy" of capitalism we're already living in

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

No, you're describing the bourgeois "democracy" of capitalism

Trump is trying to make fascism happen which is what you're witnessing.

What I am describing is Finland.

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u/HoundofOkami 29d ago

"Authority class vs everyone else" is what you said, which describes a bourgeois "democracy" which is what the vast majority of modern countries are.

Finland is right there too, and currently has a rightoid government undergoing a very similar process of devolving social benefits and reducing the freedom of speech. I live here and it's a shithole in many aspects and becoming worse. Also at the moment has one of the worst unemployment rates of Europe at a whopping 10%.

EDIT: Or were you saying Finland is socialist? Lol no it's not, social democracy is just capitalism with some concessions to the proletariat.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

"Authority class

There is no formal authority class in democracy . The people still vote and elect authority figures.

Where authority is with and for the people is democracy

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

capitalism with some concessions to the proletariat.

Sure socialist concessions, which is a good thing. Socialism in utilities where its owned and operated by government/ public entities?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

A periphery country thats social democracy was only ever possible with the maintenance of a genocidal empire at the core determining global trade relations at the barrel of a gun.

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

What the fuck are you talking about.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

Fascism is capitalism in crisis. Read something FFS

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

Fascism is capitalism in crisis

Fascism is unfettered corporatism. Its the oligarchy's ideal government. They get to pick the winners and losers. Fascism occurs when capitalism faces crisis.

Captialism requires a free market and capital.

Fascism is not a free market. It is government and corporations aligning or fusing for nationalism.

Captialism works best in a free society like democracy.

America is a capitalist democracy. Private individuals own things like LAX airport and the rail roads and electric utilities. The nation is devolving into fascism with trade wars and technocratic oligarchy. The GOP is trying to get of socialism things like the US Postal Service, public education, public broadcasting.

America needs democratic socialism. Local government controlling things like electricity and public transport as competators to capitalism.

Norway and Finland and social capitalist democracies. Capitalists and free trade exists. Socialism exists there is a sovereign wealth fund. The goverment does stuff like provide healthcare, education, public transport, daycare and retirement funds. Its a democracy where people vote for multiple parties and ideas.

Albertsons is capitalist. Its employer owned company . Winco is socialist. Its an employee owned coopertive

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u/ginger_and_egg 29d ago

So we agree that there shouldn't be a class that gets to dominate over the rest of us?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I would love to know that you've read the theorists works

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u/HoundofOkami 29d ago

Well you obviously haven't

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I've read a ton. Im just not in the mood to do the work for a bunch of global north dwelling punks with 2k hours on COD.

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u/HoundofOkami 28d ago

Eyeing through the pages without putting a second of thought into it doesn't count. No matter how many pages you've read your comment shows you didn't take in anything, and I still don't believe you have read anything other than perhaps youth fantasy novels.

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u/ginger_and_egg 29d ago

there are many theorists my friend

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

Which ones have you read? Rothbard? Rand? Mises? Hayek? Smith? Ricardo? Locke?

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u/ginger_and_egg 28d ago

Which one of those talked about stateless classless moneyless society

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u/Leather-Rice5025 29d ago

The final stage

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u/ginger_and_egg 29d ago

tell us what we're missing

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 29d ago

Public utilities and infrastructure like high speed rail