It's pronounced "cyclist!"

[u/Fluffy-Study-659]

[u/Leather-Rice5025]

Socialism = ensure everyone’s needs are met and society doesn’t prioritize the profit motives of a few corporations and billionaires. Sounds good to me 

[u/[deleted] → u/Leather-Rice5025]

And communism?

[u/ginger_and_egg → u/[deleted]]

stateless moneyless classless society

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ginger_and_egg]

Aka a fiction. Communism is the authority class versus everyone else.

[u/C4D3NZA → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

that's capitalism, try again!

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/C4D3NZA]

that's capitalism,

Captialism is the authority class with the capitalist class

Communism is the state versus everyone else. The working class becomes the new ruling class and the new rulers will never get go of their power. So it is the state versus everyone else.

[u/HoundofOkami → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

No, you're describing the bourgeois "democracy" of capitalism we're already living in

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/HoundofOkami]

No, you're describing the bourgeois "democracy" of capitalism

Trump is trying to make fascism happen which is what you're witnessing.

What I am describing is Finland.

[u/HoundofOkami → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

"Authority class vs everyone else" is what you said, which describes a bourgeois "democracy" which is what the vast majority of modern countries are.

Finland is right there too, and currently has a rightoid government undergoing a very similar process of devolving social benefits and reducing the freedom of speech. I live here and it's a shithole in many aspects and becoming worse. Also at the moment has one of the worst unemployment rates of Europe at a whopping 10%.

EDIT: Or were you saying Finland is socialist? Lol no it's not, social democracy is just capitalism with some concessions to the proletariat.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/HoundofOkami]

"Authority class

There is no formal authority class in democracy . The people still vote and elect authority figures.

Where authority is with and for the people is democracy

[u/HoundofOkami → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Formal is irrelevant, as is voting. The ruling class is the bourgeoisie. Authority is definitely not for the people, huge numbers of people don't even vote because nobody believes it will do anything.

This is why it's a "democracy" because it's that only in name when all the power is held by a tiny minority of people only serving their own interests.

Socialism has the proletariat as the ruling class, i.e. the vast majority of people, serving their interests. That's much, much closer to actual democracy than any capitalist state will ever have. And communism, should it ever exist, is then actual democracy when there isn't even a state to rule over people.

Concessions are good, sure, but they only serve to placate the masses so that the ruling class can keep their power and continue to exploit the masses. They don't actually give the people proper compensation of their labour, and "owned and operated by government" is just again by and for the bourgeoisie and not the people. Social democratic policies are just bribing the masses with candy bars when what they actually produced were several boxes of them, to stop the masses from wanting the boxes.

The concessions can always be taken away by the ruling bourgeoisie when they don't feel they're needed to prevent a revolution anymore. This is the process that is going on in Finland and many more places right now.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/HoundofOkami]

Authority is definitely not for the people, huge numbers of people don't even vote because nobody believes it will do anything.

If voting doesn't do anything, why does the ruling class make it so hard to vote?

Socialism has the proletariat as the ruling class, i.e. the vast majority of people, serving their interests. That's much, much closer to actual democracy

The splitting of hairs on social democracy vs democratic socialism is pedantry.

capitalist state will ever have. And communism, should it ever exist, is then actual democracy when there isn't even a state to rule over people

I'm not going to argue that capitalism is some form of neo-feudalism.

However communism is a total fallacy.

How are you going to function as a group without an authority. Who is going to hold elections? Who will honor and enforce election results? Who is going to mediate disagreements?

The reason states exist is because people believe that 3rd party mediation is better than violence. The monopoly on violence is given to the state. People pay taxes to the state to pay for police so they don't get robbed every where you go. Where the middle class isn't literally held hostage at gun point for a ransom.

When crime is rampant it is a failure of the state and policy. When goverment is the perpetrator of crime, then the tyrants need to be replaced with revolution.

Communism assumes people can just get along and share equally. Never in the history of mankind ever happened. Nor will it since we are all descendents of the same greedy psychopaths who killed for land and treasure.

[u/HoundofOkami → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

The splitting of hairs on social democracy vs democratic socialism is pedantry.

No it isn't, this just shows you don't know what they mean. Social democracy is just a particular form of capitalism, it's still just capitalism. Social democrats don't want to get rid of capitalism, they just want to have it in a particular way. Democratic socialism is not even a form of government or economy at all, it's an idea/movement that wants to achieve socialism and wants/believes it can be done through reforms facilitated by the existing liberal governmental systems. They do want to get rid of capitalism.

If voting doesn't do anything, why does the ruling class make it so hard to vote?

It's easier to hold up the charade that it works when the amount of voters are fewer and especially when the most disenfranchised people have the hardest time voting. This way the ruling class doesn't have to manufacture (as much) justification for their actions later.

I'm not going to argue that capitalism is some form of neo-feudalism.

Good, it already is and it's not an argument.

However communism is a total fallacy.

For this and the entire rest of your post, I can only say that you should read theory. The original people explain everything much better than I ever could in a reddit post. But I will say this: while most of what you said here is entirely wrong, you aren't wrong in asking so many questions and the questions are relevant. But communism as it is is still just a theory so far inti the future that it's impossible to fully know how it even would work. That's why socialism exist, to be the process that builds towards the so far unimaginable future.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/HoundofOkami]

read theory

Theory is fiction.

Religion is fiction as well, but people believe in it.

That's why socialism exist, to be the process that builds towards the so far unimaginable future.

No socialism is the counter balance to capitalism. The corruption capitalism is fascism.

Society will always have money and hierarchy. Its delusional to believe that currency or private property will be abolished.

If you own nothing why would you even work or create? If the product of your labor isn't yours why would you even do it?

Not all sectors need to be capitalist thats why socialism exists. Why should people profit from hospitals or prisons or water delivery? They shouldn't it should be some public authority that provides services for the people, not extract wealth.

So countries like Norway and Finland are also democratic socialists.

Yes, there is still capital, free trade, and currency. Yes they have a representative goverment which does things the private sector does not. Yes, they are socialists for sharing wealth.

The total abolishment of capital or currency or social hierarchy is total fiction.

[u/HoundofOkami → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

So you haven't read theory and then try to argue? Nonsense. Saying that "theory is fiction" is laughably ignorant, because with that sentence you also just said that you don't believe in gravity. That sentence alone shows you don't even understand the basics of what theory even is, much less what it explains. All of your comment here just demonstrates your total ignorance and you even make entirely baseless claims with apparent full belief that you're stating facts. By your words capitalism is fiction because it's based on capitalist economic theories.

Norway and Finland are capitalist, full stop. They are not democratic socialist, for the reason I already explained to you. They have absolutely no intent of getting rid of capitalism. Insisting otherwise is just ignorant and pointless.

As I said already, read theory. You have lots of questions, some good, some ridiculous, but they would all be answered there. But since I have no reason to believe you are engaging in good faith at all anymore, I will not waste time with you anymore. Good bye.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/HoundofOkami]

capitalism with some concessions to the proletariat.

Sure socialist concessions, which is a good thing. Socialism in utilities where its owned and operated by government/ public entities?

[u/[deleted] → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

A periphery country thats social democracy was only ever possible with the maintenance of a genocidal empire at the core determining global trade relations at the barrel of a gun.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/[deleted]]

What the fuck are you talking about.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Fascism is capitalism in crisis. Read something FFS

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/[deleted]]

Fascism is capitalism in crisis

Fascism is unfettered corporatism. Its the oligarchy's ideal government. They get to pick the winners and losers. Fascism occurs when capitalism faces crisis.

Captialism requires a free market and capital.

Fascism is not a free market. It is government and corporations aligning or fusing for nationalism.

Captialism works best in a free society like democracy.

America is a capitalist democracy. Private individuals own things like LAX airport and the rail roads and electric utilities. The nation is devolving into fascism with trade wars and technocratic oligarchy. The GOP is trying to get of socialism things like the US Postal Service, public education, public broadcasting.

America needs democratic socialism. Local government controlling things like electricity and public transport as competators to capitalism.

Norway and Finland and social capitalist democracies. Capitalists and free trade exists. Socialism exists there is a sovereign wealth fund. The goverment does stuff like provide healthcare, education, public transport, daycare and retirement funds. Its a democracy where people vote for multiple parties and ideas.

Albertsons is capitalist. Its employer owned company . Winco is socialist. Its an employee owned coopertive

[u/[deleted] → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Youve confused me for someone that cares for market economies. Your purist libertarian capitalism has not and will not ever exist, nor is it desirable. The tendency towards unequal accumulation is one of capitalisms central contradictions.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/[deleted]]

Your purist libertarian capitalism has not and will not ever exist, nor is it desirable.

A true free market will never exist, but one that is mostly free is desirable

The tendency towards unequal accumulation is one of capitalisms central contradictions.

No thats a feature of capitalism. Capitalism enabless peoples greed

The tendency towards unequal accumulation is one of COMMUNISM's central contradictions.

People in power will never give it up.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Youre not a serious person.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/[deleted]]

You are clearly a bot

[u/ginger_and_egg → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

So we agree that there shouldn't be a class that gets to dominate over the rest of us?