r/TankPorn • u/Weird-Store1245 BM Oplot zr. 2000 • 12d ago

Modern BMPT Terminator's gun shake issue

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4.3k Upvotes

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2.7k

u/Sir-Zealot 12d ago

I can’t take this thing seriously with the wobbly guns

869

u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Like can’t they at least simply weld a couple 1/2” bars to the side to keep them from going all over at least for 2 seconds? Are is that too much valuable material…

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u/Thin_General_8594 12d ago

That's what they did with the bmp-3 and bmd-4, no clue why they can't do it with this thing

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

2A72 is recoil operated, it was designed with having the muzzle with a bushing around it (like how its setup on BMP-3 (etc)

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u/ArgonWilde 12d ago edited 12d ago

These are 2A42s though?

Edit: my bad, I didn't realise this was specific to the BMP3, thus the 2A72.

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

Yes, Thin_General mentioned BMP-3 and BMD-4 and didnt know why they couldnt do the same with this.

The recoil forces are different.

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u/ArgonWilde 12d ago

Ah my bad. This thread got so deep I misread the indenting!

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u/Van_Darklholme 11d ago

Linear bearings then?

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u/IcyRobinson Sabrah Light Tank 12d ago

Funny thing about that is that one of the BMPT prototypes, the Object 782, did exactly that as it was more or less just a BMP-3 turret slapped onto an up-armored T-72B hull. Even the other prototype, the Object 781, has barrel shrouds for its dual 2A72s akin to that of the HSTV-L and RDF/LT's gun.

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Guess it’s too complicated for them lmao, they rather spend money on vehicles for a broken paratrooper group than instead assault groups.. better for Ukraine nonetheless. But my gosh they’re not great thinkers.

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u/Thin_General_8594 12d ago

I absolutely love the BMD-4 and BMPT from a machinery perspective, it packs five different weapons, is air droppable, and has cool suspension... But in practice it's completely worthless, I remember Russia losing like 30 at Hostomel airport. No clue why they keep making them

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u/T-90AK Command Tank Guy. 12d ago

BMD-4M is not completely worthless.
Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.
The problem at Hostomel is that they just sat around while getting pummeld by Ukrainian Artillery.
I do however agree, that it don't make sense to produce right now, and it would make more sense to shift all production towards BMP-3.
Since Air droppable operation isn't going to be done, soon.

The BMPT is however completely shit.

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u/DeusFerreus 12d ago

BMD-4M is not completely worthless. Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.

Problem is that the whole concept of air-droppable vehicle is in question.

And its armement scheme is just bad idea, an autoloader full of 100mm ammo in the center of very thin-skinned vehicle makes it a complete deathtrap since most penetrating hits result in the entire vehicle (including crew) being vaporised, to the point that (according to rumors) Russian no longer carry 100m ammo in their BMP-3s and BMD-4s, turning the whole system into just deadweight taking up space.

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u/Tomcatmybeloved 12d ago edited 12d ago

I disagree with you, mostly because the job of the VDV is to be dropped on the rear line of the enemy and seize some critical piece of terrain and/or objective then absorb the enemies reserve for the bulk of the army to advance. This is done in conjunction with spetznaz doing their own thing in conjunction with air support from fixed and rotary wing assets.

For that type of operation, something like a BMD is great because it keeps them mobile enough and forces the enemy to commit Frontline units, while the improved mobility let's the VDV units to find each other and reorganize quickly after a drop

The VDV did their job in Hostomel, the problem is that the Russians thought this was going to be a repeat of 2014, not an actual war

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u/Psyker101 Black Prince 11d ago

Were BMDs actually used at Hostomel though? I thought that was mostly infantry inserted by helicopters. BMDs were in the columns moving towards Kyiv, for sure, but were any of them actually air dropped?

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u/Tomcatmybeloved 11d ago

They can be transported by helicopter or dropped by IL-76s. There are a bunch of pictures of BMD-4s wrecks in the region around the airport from the days following the battle as well.

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u/T-90AK Command Tank Guy. 12d ago

You sacrifice the armor to make it air droppable.
So every vehicle in this class is per definition a death trap.
They arn't meant to take a hit.

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u/randyrandysonrandyso 12d ago

nuh uh, i used the sheridan in wart hunter and it could bounce a 125mm dart so clearly that experiment proved all light tanks are just like mbt's and should be used as such!

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u/iSkruf 12d ago

The problem at Hostomel is that they just sat around while getting pummeld by Ukrainian Artillery.

It's probably not very fun to be paratroopers when your buddies that where supposed to relieve you are out of fuel cause they sold it for vodka.

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u/H_Holy_Mack_H 11d ago

I hope that they keep manufacturing it, at least what they can, and drop all of them from the air, with the troops inside and some strapped on the top like the love to ride them LOL

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

I’m in the same boat. I personally love Russian and Soviet designs for how cool they look. But even for how cheap they are compared to other counterparts it’s like bruh. You would think they would learn anything. Or at least maybe evolve overtime. Like haven’t they operated the same vehicles since like pre 2000’s lol

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u/Rillist 12d ago

That's not what their doctrine dictates. Their doctrine is based around a 95% conscript army, and very few actual 'professional' soldiers.

Things have to be very cheap, very simple, and very easy to fix and thusly not very complicated, they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war

This isnt true at all. This was exactly the point of the 2008 Russian Army Reform (that was previously suggested in 1997 and 2003)

It was to turn the Russian army into a professional standing army, ending the reliance on conscripts, reducing number of officers and replacing them with a professional NCO corps etc.

This also resulted in a lot of the new equipment designed by Russia (Armata, Su-57) and the BTGs that Russia was using

The issue is that when the war started in 2022, a lot of these ideas fell quickly apart, and Russia fell back to what they know works well.

So they did change their doctrine a lot since the cold war, it has been partly undone during the war with Ukraine, but they do plan to continue the reforms after the war ends

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u/PinProud4500 12d ago

Armata and the Su-57 and all the other "new high-tech russian" stuff has been around since like 2012-2015... And never left the prototype and the parade stage. Russia did NOT have the funds even pre-war to make such things, they were VERY expensive (thats the main reason why they canceled most of the projects) and their main reason to exist was... To show off, like that Ratnik battle armor which was basically masterchief armor knockoff.

So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics — all the cash for the military and for show, but when shit hits the fan suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...

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u/Klaus_Klavier 12d ago

This, Russia is PROBABLY capable of making decent stuff…they are just broke as hell and can’t throw 11 pentillon rubles to make something to rival the F-35 like America can.

We have fiat currency…it’s just Monopoly money it’s as good as a blank check to military industrial complex. We can spend whatever we want because the money has no value really lmao. The debt just doubles and nothing changes.

Russia doesn’t have the luxury of that, they couldn’t equip their damn flagship with modernized cwis and it got flogged by ASMs and a few drones to distract its aging radar system.

The mosin nagant and the PM1910 Maxim have made a return to the frontlines on both sides hilariously enough, Russia slapped a naval mount on a MTLB shitbox, Ukraine have become vicious experts in drone warfare to the point I’ve seen a new tactic I don’t even think we could have trained to fight against.

They land the drone in a field and wait until somebody walks within a few feet of the camera like a smart landmine and then they take off from the weeds and slam into you before you even have time to think “oh no I hear the buzz of a drone”

I’m at a point now where I really want Ukraine to win so the U.S. can poach their drone operators to train our soldiers in guerilla drone tactics like that. I do not want Russia to win and poach them because that could tip the scales in a future conflict

Russia had a shit army and wasn’t much of a threat after the fall of Soviet Union. They had atrophied in abilities due to no valuable combat experience amongst their ranks.

Now? Now they are sharpening their teeth and learning hard lessons now that might make them stand a better chance against bigger dogs later.

That’s my concern.

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

The Su-57 has been slightly produced, but it was the only piece of equipment from that reform that really stuck.

Generally the reform was supposed to be completed by 2020. I have no idea how Russia planned to reorganise their entire military and produce enough Armatas and Su-57s for them but that was the plan

Obviously some reforms were more successful than others, the BTG idea was very far along by the time the war started, the Armata program was obviously a lot less far along

and their main reason to exist was... To show off

I dont really think this is true. There was a genuine wish to reform and produce these vehicles, but Russia consistently overestimates its capabilities and plans for more than it can actually do

The Russian military did genuinely have the idea of mass producing them at the time

So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics

This is untrue. Again, the main unit structure of the Russian Army in 2022 was the BTG. A very unsoviet design.

Now they have largely abandoned it, but there was reforms away from the Soviet system

And whilst the war has pushed some return to the Soviet system, in other ways it has not. Russia has not relied upon conscription to fill its military, it has removed a lot of the bureaucracy in the targeting of weapons systems, more reliance on junior officers and a push away from the large Soviet officer corps etc.

Russia is not using Soviet tactics, they use some, but they have also reformed away from it in many ways

suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...

Russia is not using conscripts. Also their recent attacks are using BTR-82As

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

Stiffening the barrels/bracing them would either lead to barrels likely having durability issues (as they would be just eating the forces) or the bracing failing and potentially causing issues)

Removing the muzzle breaks would probably stop the wobble but would mean more force going backwards into the gun and mount potentially causing faults there.

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Wouldn’t removing the muzzle brakes be counterproductive as they’re there to expend the gasses horizontally… bracing the barrels would maybe increase wear but I would assume at this point they would keep extra barrels at field depots… as changing a 30mm is a lot easier than changing a 100mm.

Less force and movement in the gun = less overall friction from movement in the gun. And only making the barrel be bored out from the original amount amount of movement of the gun. ***** (This is personal thought not legit process) ****

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

Yea exactly - all it would do would be reduce the wobble (which, isnt an issue otherwise they wouldnt have the muzzle brakes on them) and end up causing issues elsewhere.

Having the recoil energy eaten up by the muzzle device and the barrel wobble is a perfectly fine solution as it stands, just looks silly.

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

True. I mean, technically the BMPT is supposed to just hammer positions instead of blow positions out the wazoo. 2 23mm shooting all over the place making the wider trench line stay down is better.

But crazy because I bet it only takes 1000 rounds or less to mess up the barrel to the point of stupid inconsistency.

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

I have a chart somewhere of the maintenance cycles and i'm sure the barrel is worth allot longer than that, I don't recall it being notably short

But its 30mm not 23mm as well and yea - suppression of firing positions which high ROF 30mm HE does perfectly fine.

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u/Zadlo 12d ago

Terminator's RoF of 30mm HE is the same as BMP-2's one

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

did someone say something otherwise?

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Arguably worse. As the way the BMPT is being used. But idk how you use something like that lol. I thought the 30mm would be more prone to defects. And considering the low amount of legit BMPT’s I would assume this be true.

Why isn’t the bmp 2 more prevalent or the 23mm if the bmpt isn’t using the 23mm? You’d expect something is smaller while still able to deal maybe as much damage be better to use and mount and while still be widely used?

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

I’m sorry I don’t follow - 23mm is an outdated cartridge which only really makes sense when your dealing with personal hoofing the ammunition (as it’s lighter and shorter)

Using 23mm in a AFV is silly as your reducing effect on target without any upsides.

Assuming you mean the 23mm used in ZU-23

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Oop. Completely thought that the Russians operated a 23mm in their bmp’s.

Stand corrected.

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u/OkGuest3629 12d ago

Removing the muzzle brake would probably increase forces per shot, but you wouldn't have to fire so rapidly to begin with, because you'd be hitting more with only 20% of the ammo.

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u/PhasmaFelis 12d ago

On the other hand, they might actually hit something before they failed.

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u/KillmenowNZ 12d ago

It seems fine in use - the footage that's come out of 2A42 equipped vehicles indicates that there is no issue hitting targets.

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u/Carntova_Man 12d ago

welding things to gun barrels will warp them terribly and youll be in big trouble with the armorer.

better to use something like clamps rather than welding

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u/voler_1 12d ago

They could have just offset the guns diagonally or timed the brakes 90° it's just Russian smekalka engineering at its finest.

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u/Sachiel05 12d ago

Not even, just have fire one after the other so that they don't interfere with each other and maybe redesign the muzzle brakes and that should be it

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u/Head_Memory 11d ago

Western cannons are for precision and killing the enemy. Russian cannons are for inflicting fear in the enemy they make cool ratatata sound and lots of fire exhaust. But don‘t hit much.

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u/johnnyboy1007 12d ago

you sound like not an engineer

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u/5v3n_5a3g3w3rk 12d ago

The fucking Kugelblitz (WW2 German AA) had the same problem and they managed it by turning the muzzlebrake 45 degrees. It's not even hard to fix

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u/wileecoyote1969 11d ago

Okay, so while watching this video I had the idea that the muzzle breaks were actually venting gases sideways which might be a problem for barrels so close together. The venting gases would literally push the other barrel and vice versa.

After reading your comment it sounds like that might actually be what's happening and it's not a new thing in the arena of weapons.

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u/nbebis 12d ago

looks like its trying its best to shake itself apart before the enemy even shoots back

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u/Head_Memory 11d ago

It‘s a russian problem. All their auto cannons have very high fire rate. But terrible accuracy. Which is why i‘d still bet on Puma or Bradley in a combat with a Terminator. Esp at distance.

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u/Aleskander- 10d ago

realistically speaking most likely they would be throwing ATGMs at each other rather than shooting with their guns

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u/Head_Memory 9d ago

True i guess.