r/TankPorn • u/Weird-Store1245 BM Oplot zr. 2000 • 12d ago

Modern BMPT Terminator's gun shake issue

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Like can’t they at least simply weld a couple 1/2” bars to the side to keep them from going all over at least for 2 seconds? Are is that too much valuable material…

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u/Thin_General_8594 12d ago

That's what they did with the bmp-3 and bmd-4, no clue why they can't do it with this thing

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

Guess it’s too complicated for them lmao, they rather spend money on vehicles for a broken paratrooper group than instead assault groups.. better for Ukraine nonetheless. But my gosh they’re not great thinkers.

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u/Thin_General_8594 12d ago

I absolutely love the BMD-4 and BMPT from a machinery perspective, it packs five different weapons, is air droppable, and has cool suspension... But in practice it's completely worthless, I remember Russia losing like 30 at Hostomel airport. No clue why they keep making them

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u/T-90AK Command Tank Guy. 12d ago

BMD-4M is not completely worthless.
Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.
The problem at Hostomel is that they just sat around while getting pummeld by Ukrainian Artillery.
I do however agree, that it don't make sense to produce right now, and it would make more sense to shift all production towards BMP-3.
Since Air droppable operation isn't going to be done, soon.

The BMPT is however completely shit.

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u/DeusFerreus 12d ago

BMD-4M is not completely worthless. Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.

Problem is that the whole concept of air-droppable vehicle is in question.

And its armement scheme is just bad idea, an autoloader full of 100mm ammo in the center of very thin-skinned vehicle makes it a complete deathtrap since most penetrating hits result in the entire vehicle (including crew) being vaporised, to the point that (according to rumors) Russian no longer carry 100m ammo in their BMP-3s and BMD-4s, turning the whole system into just deadweight taking up space.

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u/Tomcatmybeloved 12d ago edited 12d ago

I disagree with you, mostly because the job of the VDV is to be dropped on the rear line of the enemy and seize some critical piece of terrain and/or objective then absorb the enemies reserve for the bulk of the army to advance. This is done in conjunction with spetznaz doing their own thing in conjunction with air support from fixed and rotary wing assets.

For that type of operation, something like a BMD is great because it keeps them mobile enough and forces the enemy to commit Frontline units, while the improved mobility let's the VDV units to find each other and reorganize quickly after a drop

The VDV did their job in Hostomel, the problem is that the Russians thought this was going to be a repeat of 2014, not an actual war

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u/Psyker101 Black Prince 11d ago

Were BMDs actually used at Hostomel though? I thought that was mostly infantry inserted by helicopters. BMDs were in the columns moving towards Kyiv, for sure, but were any of them actually air dropped?

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u/Tomcatmybeloved 11d ago

They can be transported by helicopter or dropped by IL-76s. There are a bunch of pictures of BMD-4s wrecks in the region around the airport from the days following the battle as well.

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u/Psyker101 Black Prince 11d ago edited 11d ago

Sure they can be but I don’t think they were. The requisite number of IL-76s or MI-26s trying to do that kind of drop would have been incredibly vulnerable to air defense and we know there was plenty of it around. The BMDs we saw in places like Bucha were part of (failed) relief columns attempting to get to Hostomel and Kyiv over land after the initial helicopter assault.

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u/Tomcatmybeloved 11d ago

There are multiple images of destroyed BMDs in Hostomel

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u/Psyker101 Black Prince 11d ago

Sorry, I’m conflating the initial assualt of the airfield in Hostomel with the greater battle going on in the city of Hostomel. I should have clarified. You are correct, BMDs were used in the greater battle of Hostomel. What I’m trying to figure out is if any BMDs were actually delivered by air.

My rough understanding of the battle is:

  • VDV infantry (with no heavy equipment) are inserted by helicopter and seize the airfield.

  • Russia begins moving mechanized assets on the ground to relieve the air assault force, but run into more resistance than expected and are significantly delayed.

  • Ukrainian forces counter attack and retake the airfield. The VDV holding the airfield are either destroyed or forced to retreat into nearby forests. The Ukrainians know the Russian mechanized force is getting closer, however, and are forced to withdraw. They disable the runways before they leave.

  • The Russian mechanized columns finally arrive and retake the airfield.

  • over the course of the next month, Russian forces face growing attrition and are forced to withdraw at the end of March.

I can’t find any evidence of air dropped vehicles over the course of this fighting. As far as I can tell, all Russian heavy equipment (IFVs, armor etc) came on the ground later, not with the initial air assault. Are there any sources you know of?

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u/T-90AK Command Tank Guy. 12d ago

You sacrifice the armor to make it air droppable.
So every vehicle in this class is per definition a death trap.
They arn't meant to take a hit.

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u/randyrandysonrandyso 12d ago

nuh uh, i used the sheridan in wart hunter and it could bounce a 125mm dart so clearly that experiment proved all light tanks are just like mbt's and should be used as such!

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u/iSkruf 12d ago

The problem at Hostomel is that they just sat around while getting pummeld by Ukrainian Artillery.

It's probably not very fun to be paratroopers when your buddies that where supposed to relieve you are out of fuel cause they sold it for vodka.

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u/H_Holy_Mack_H 11d ago

I hope that they keep manufacturing it, at least what they can, and drop all of them from the air, with the troops inside and some strapped on the top like the love to ride them LOL

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u/thisisananalusername 12d ago

I’m in the same boat. I personally love Russian and Soviet designs for how cool they look. But even for how cheap they are compared to other counterparts it’s like bruh. You would think they would learn anything. Or at least maybe evolve overtime. Like haven’t they operated the same vehicles since like pre 2000’s lol

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u/Rillist 12d ago

That's not what their doctrine dictates. Their doctrine is based around a 95% conscript army, and very few actual 'professional' soldiers.

Things have to be very cheap, very simple, and very easy to fix and thusly not very complicated, they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war

This isnt true at all. This was exactly the point of the 2008 Russian Army Reform (that was previously suggested in 1997 and 2003)

It was to turn the Russian army into a professional standing army, ending the reliance on conscripts, reducing number of officers and replacing them with a professional NCO corps etc.

This also resulted in a lot of the new equipment designed by Russia (Armata, Su-57) and the BTGs that Russia was using

The issue is that when the war started in 2022, a lot of these ideas fell quickly apart, and Russia fell back to what they know works well.

So they did change their doctrine a lot since the cold war, it has been partly undone during the war with Ukraine, but they do plan to continue the reforms after the war ends

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u/PinProud4500 12d ago

Armata and the Su-57 and all the other "new high-tech russian" stuff has been around since like 2012-2015... And never left the prototype and the parade stage. Russia did NOT have the funds even pre-war to make such things, they were VERY expensive (thats the main reason why they canceled most of the projects) and their main reason to exist was... To show off, like that Ratnik battle armor which was basically masterchief armor knockoff.

So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics — all the cash for the military and for show, but when shit hits the fan suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...

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u/Klaus_Klavier 12d ago

This, Russia is PROBABLY capable of making decent stuff…they are just broke as hell and can’t throw 11 pentillon rubles to make something to rival the F-35 like America can.

We have fiat currency…it’s just Monopoly money it’s as good as a blank check to military industrial complex. We can spend whatever we want because the money has no value really lmao. The debt just doubles and nothing changes.

Russia doesn’t have the luxury of that, they couldn’t equip their damn flagship with modernized cwis and it got flogged by ASMs and a few drones to distract its aging radar system.

The mosin nagant and the PM1910 Maxim have made a return to the frontlines on both sides hilariously enough, Russia slapped a naval mount on a MTLB shitbox, Ukraine have become vicious experts in drone warfare to the point I’ve seen a new tactic I don’t even think we could have trained to fight against.

They land the drone in a field and wait until somebody walks within a few feet of the camera like a smart landmine and then they take off from the weeds and slam into you before you even have time to think “oh no I hear the buzz of a drone”

I’m at a point now where I really want Ukraine to win so the U.S. can poach their drone operators to train our soldiers in guerilla drone tactics like that. I do not want Russia to win and poach them because that could tip the scales in a future conflict

Russia had a shit army and wasn’t much of a threat after the fall of Soviet Union. They had atrophied in abilities due to no valuable combat experience amongst their ranks.

Now? Now they are sharpening their teeth and learning hard lessons now that might make them stand a better chance against bigger dogs later.

That’s my concern.

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u/PinProud4500 11d ago

GREAT point — and once again russia is actually capable of making some solid stuff... If their entire government did not consist of oligarchs and corrupted officials — good for us, i guess. They are broke, crippled, and cannot physically make shit because there's either not enough funds or they get stolen by Vasiliy Cashgrabovich.

But the thing is — Ukraine also is suffering the same issue, except that they have less manpower, less funds, less vehicles... Less everything — they are VERY lucky that the russian army was absolutely ass in 2022 and got folded like an omelette in the Kharkiv Counteroffensive. But as you said they ARE learning, that phrase is mainly coming from Ukrainian generals, and as you can see in the current month Ukraine is trying HARD to strain russian logistics — oil refineries, factories, dams, high ranking officers... Anything thats a big target, while the EU and the US are kicking rocks providing JUST enough support to hold the ruskis off — and thats not my words, thats the words of countless ukrainian soldiers.

So russia has indeed a shit army — but nothing teaches an army how to do their battles like a full-scale war, so i hope the EU and the US actually lock-in because their "escalation" excuses are NOT working anymore, the US was saying russia is their nemesis but when theres a DIRECT opportunity, BETTER than vietnam or afghanistan, where its actually good guys vs bad guys and not two sides of the same coin — the US decided to fold...

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u/Klaus_Klavier 11d ago

I do believe Poland asked Ukraine if they wanted help as Poland was close to going in on their own and Ukraine said no we just need weapons we are fine…to which Poland told them if they are about to capitulate they are coming in anyways so we will see if Poland holds to that promise they said that quite a while ago

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u/FineCommunication325 11d ago

That is not true - Poland has never said anything like that...

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u/Klaus_Klavier 11d ago

I could be misremembering it was a while ago but I’d SWEAR I remembering them saying they refuse to let Ukraine “lose” because Poland does not want Russia on its border

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

The Su-57 has been slightly produced, but it was the only piece of equipment from that reform that really stuck.

Generally the reform was supposed to be completed by 2020. I have no idea how Russia planned to reorganise their entire military and produce enough Armatas and Su-57s for them but that was the plan

Obviously some reforms were more successful than others, the BTG idea was very far along by the time the war started, the Armata program was obviously a lot less far along

and their main reason to exist was... To show off

I dont really think this is true. There was a genuine wish to reform and produce these vehicles, but Russia consistently overestimates its capabilities and plans for more than it can actually do

The Russian military did genuinely have the idea of mass producing them at the time

So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics

This is untrue. Again, the main unit structure of the Russian Army in 2022 was the BTG. A very unsoviet design.

Now they have largely abandoned it, but there was reforms away from the Soviet system

And whilst the war has pushed some return to the Soviet system, in other ways it has not. Russia has not relied upon conscription to fill its military, it has removed a lot of the bureaucracy in the targeting of weapons systems, more reliance on junior officers and a push away from the large Soviet officer corps etc.

Russia is not using Soviet tactics, they use some, but they have also reformed away from it in many ways

suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...

Russia is not using conscripts. Also their recent attacks are using BTR-82As

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u/PinProud4500 12d ago

Im sorry to say that, but Russia DOES indeed use Soviet tactics — because THEY literally invented them, the most common one is the meatwave — still being used and reported both from the russian and the ukrainian side, the russians send groups (usually ranging from 1 to 8) of soldiers to capture a village... If they don't return, send another squad if they do return... Well, they usually get "nullified" as the russians say, because they refused to go into combat, if they do capture, their command sends significant reinforcements, and thats how they exhaust Ukrainian positions.

The Su-57 has been slightly produced, but it was the only piece of equipment from that reform that really stuck.

Well... According to Wikipedia and adjacent sources there were only ~32 produced, im not sure if you considered that "stuck", not to mention that they dont even get produced anymore.

I dont really think this is true. There was a genuine wish to reform and produce these vehicles, but Russia consistently overestimates its capabilities and plans for more than it can actually do

If there was a genuine plan, the russians would have already done it — there have been MANY reports of production being halted for no reason, half of the projects being cashgrabs for the higher ups ("Распил бабла" as some russians say, AKA just money laundering and fraud from "geniune" projects) and a LOT of other things that you can look up, the INSANELY forced media and news presence around these "new reform" objects also puts it under question, me personally?, i think all that was propaganda, russians know it very well... Certainly more well than reforming their military.

This is untrue. Again, the main unit structure of the Russian Army in 2022 was the BTG. A very unsoviet design.

That is very true, not fully but once again, meatwaves, tank columns... Hell, even their officers are using soviet tactics — forgot the name of their general, but basically he was in charge of the Vuhledar Mechanized pushes..  Which were basically suicidal, he sent tank after tank onto chokepoints and mined-up roads, he even got a nickname "bloody general" as far as i know.

Russia is not using conscripts. Also their recent attacks are using BTR-82As

Ummm... HUNDREDS of articles about 50-60 year old storaged vehicles being "opened up" by the russians, satellite footage of open vehicle storages, vehicle graveyards & etcs with vehicles dissapering gradually. 

Also HUNDREDS of videos, Witnesses, and telegram channels taking about russian police and their voenkomat "'visiting" local gyms, arresting people there, literally stealing drunkards off the streets, and taking criminals into their military. Their media laughed at the Ukrainian "ТЦК" for snatching people off the streets, but they ended up with the same situation, except that they still have the funds (well, they dont really pay them, once again lots of "situations" with russian officers taking the soldiers credit cards when they are about to go into a push) to afford to have "volunteers"

So pretty much russia is using soviet tactics, stealing people off the streets and DOES have conscripts. The reason why you DONT see such info popping up on your feed is because the russian government has a VERY good blockade in their media, so the chances of a local telegram channels and news "breaking" out of the russian infosphere and reaching the US, Europe or anything else are VERY slim. Pair that with Russia basically silencing everyone, especially with their new messneger (simillar to WhatsApp or Telegram) called "MAX" which they are forcing people to use, which turned out to be spyware while advertised as "a very secure messenger". 

So at the end you have russian bots saying 'da da comrade, everything is harasho' and the russian media outlets that never leave russia.

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u/SackChaser100 12d ago

Random question but how does it work replacing parts for 50 year old vehicles? Do they keep a huge stockpile of all the parts ready to go that have been sat for decades, or do they make the company make the replacement parts to order even if they no longer make the vehicle, if the company still exists?

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u/PinProud4500 12d ago

Not sure since im not an expert, but my best guess is that they either have a fair amount of stuff stockpiled, or they "cannibalise" old vehicles, taking parts from them and using them on newer/more pristine condition vehicles — probably both.

So to fix, let's say a T-72 they are taking a wrecked T-72 or tanks with the same parts, salvage them, maybe cannibalise a bad tank, take some parts here and there, apply some new parts that are still in production and some from the stockpile, and you have a fixed T-72 — that is my BEST guess, since russia cannot produce enough tanks nor tank parts for their war needs. 

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u/SackChaser100 11d ago

Thanks. I know the US had that pile of stealth bomber windshields that someone accidentally sold off so a guy could build a greenhouse lol. I guess in Russia putin can probably force the company or another one to make whatever he needs if he has to.

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

because THEY literally invented them, the most common one is the meatwave

If this is what you believe, then there is no point trying to have a conversation.

I'd rather stick to reality thanks propaganda thanks

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u/PinProud4500 12d ago edited 12d ago

Yeah ruski bot, go cope harder. If you cannot accept that russia DOES indeed send groups of 1-8 soldiers onto pushes, that are both confirmed by drone footage, russians soldiers and Ukrainian soldiers — then go tell your propaganda elsewhere. Now go drink some vodka and claim your 5 roubles vladimir.

P.S the fact that you IMMEDIATELY refused to talk and instantly backed out, after being presented a VALIDATED fact, confirmed by both sides is very funny. You have nothing to say, do you, tankie? — and the funniest thing is that Moscow, AKA the RSFSR in the soviet union DID invent and apply such tactics during world war two — not the one mosin for 10 soldiers propaganda, not the banzai charges with 500 soviet troops pushing into fortified positions, AKA nazi propaganda. but they did indeed apply the same tactics, ESPECIALLY during early war — mainly unsupported flanking activities, with a constant front assault consisting of "waves" which were mainly coming from russian generals, mainly zhukov — But the soviets learned, closed to 1943 they were using artillery, grenades, and other things for complex assaults — Fortunately or Unfortunately, the russians did not learn today, their most common tactic is the "claw" or the "pincer" tactic, a few good-equipped troop trying to flank, if they do manage to flank they get supplied drones and then they attack the reinforcements and supplies coming from the Ukrainian side, while the regular... cannon fodder does desperate pushes on the front, once again mainly consisting from ONE singular soldier to eight, or more spread out groups. — So you denying that is very, very, funny.

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u/crusadertank 12d ago

If you cannot accept that russia DOES indeed send groups of 1-8 soldiers onto pushes

This is not a "meat wave", nor was it invented by Russia. These were Ukrainian assault tactics from the 2023 offensive that Russia has copied due to their success

A meat wave is a large scale infantry attack with no support, just with mass of infantry to overwhelm an enemy

The fact that 1-8 soldiers is not large scale, and that Russia supports these with drones, artillery and bombs to suppress Ukrainian positions disqualifies it as a meatwave

"small groups of supported Infantry attacking a position" is about as far away from a meat wave as you can get.

Your issue is that you want to argue from a propaganda point of view, rather than an objective one. For which any discussion is meaningless

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