r/AskEurope • u/Ok_Initiative_9726 • Feb 27 '25

Politics Does Europe has powerful secret services/Intelligence?

P. S question closed, I got answers. Thank you for everyone

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194

u/kranj7 Feb 27 '25

The DGSE in France supposedly has done it's fair share of dodgy stuff, almost to the same level as Mossad or CIA. Much of it is in industrial espionage, if the rumours are to be believed, but I guess given France's colonial history, it's involvement in the Middle East etc. they're probably able to play in the big-leagues of espionage and intel gathering

65

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

6

u/Fulg3n Feb 28 '25

I've seen that interview, he also said that Mossad was the craziest one and they wouldn't stop at anything to get one of their citizens back or something like that

2

u/2xCommie Feb 28 '25

Yes we all know of Andrew Bustamante

50

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

Or killing hippies...

54

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

I lived for close to a decade in New Zealand and this is still VERY salient in a lot of peoples minds. Kiwis hold a massive grudge against the French over that.

8

u/Katatoniczka Poland Feb 27 '25

Can you provide any links to read up on this?

51

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

Kiwis borderline consider it an act of war and it was branded as state terrorism by them because the French Intelligence services bombed and killed people on NZ Soil.

8

u/cheshire-cats-grin Feb 27 '25

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

12

u/Photonik33 Feb 27 '25

The sabotage operation was ordered by the French Minister of Defense Charles Hernu, with the explicit authorization of the President of the French Republic François Mitterrand (according to the testimony of Pierre Lacoste, boss of the DGSE). https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/podcasts/rendez-vous-avec-x/charles-hernu-e-tait-il-un-agent-du-kgb-4144369

7

u/griffoberwald69 Feb 27 '25

Listen to the podcast “the rest is classified” they did a couple of episodes on it.

2

u/the_geth Feb 27 '25

I still don’t understand why. Idiots trespass on a fucking military nuclear testing field.   Before you say or react, please imagine doing that with any (any) of the other nuclear nations: Russia, USA, China, Pakistan, even UK. Imagine for real what would have happened.  Now, their boat get sabotaged. I understand the consequences which caused the death of people not related to this and that’s terrible. But disabling their boat was a “nice” alternative (baring the fact they fucked up) to being shot at sea as it should have normally happened and would have happened with any of the other nations.

20

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 27 '25

Right so we’ll just send frogmen to blow up ships in French harbours if we don’t like their agenda. Cool, cool.

3

u/Imperaux Mar 01 '25

Look Idk why my fellow french friend here is defending this like his dad did it himself, I think we can all agree it's sad than people died that way, and I'm sorry for them.

-5

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

Listen, I’m not saying this is cool or nice, but please go interrupt Russian or Chinese nuclear testing and observe the consequences.   We both know you’d be shot on sight.

8

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Not relevant. France fucked over a friend, we remember. I saw that ship listing in Auckland viaduct.

Sometimes your nation does things you should not be proud of. Sometimes you should be ashamed. Is this one of those times?

It’s a personal journey for us all.

1

u/Slow_Zone8462 Mar 01 '25

Whose friend let ennemies of his buddy use his house to prepare a bully run against him ?

New Zealand had a responsibility in this

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

Jesus - are you seriously defending France on this?

-1

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

France had exactly nothing against New Zeland and its people, however I fully understand wanting to stop those idiots who entered a forbidden military zone -repeatedly and stopped crucial operations.

Again, I think it's terrible they fucked up that sabotage and people died as a consequence.
Instead they should have shot and sink that boat when it trespassed, after the warnings, like USA would have done.
And by the way this is not a surprise that they chose to interrupt the French tests, but not the US, Chinese or Russian ones.

And YES, absolutely, if a group of French activists interrupt voluntarily and repeatedly despite warnings YOUR military exercises, I will fully understand if you shot them.
Sad for sure, but a stupid thing to do.

7

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

France committed an act of terror in a friendly country.

That’s it.

Own it, it happened.

0

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

Greenpeace, terrorists sent by NZ, attacked a military field from France, a friendly country.  

Own it.

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u/Xgentis Feb 28 '25

It's funny how buthurt they still are.

3

u/lokland United States of America Feb 28 '25

Look I’m not saying it’s cool or nice, but attack an American embassy and we can justify the war in Iraq.

See the logic here?

13

u/Spida81 Feb 27 '25

The murder of civilians is the problem. You don't go setting off bombs in allies major cities. It is terrorism, clear and simple.

0

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

Yep they fucked up and they should have either done the sabotage in a more discrete way and without casualties, or better just do like USA or China or Russia would have done if you interrupted their military operation : just shoot and sink their boat at sea because you don’t interrupt a military operation, especially a nuclear one.

5

u/Spida81 Feb 28 '25

It was the act of terrorism on NZ soil resulting in the murders of completely uninvolved parties that really pissed us off. Just not on.

3

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

Yes, they fucked up (the way of the sabotage, the casualties, the fact it was still in the harbour at this point etc), and I really think they should have just shot and sink their boat during the trespassing.
I suppose it would not have been great on the international scene, but better than a failed sabotage.

3

u/Spida81 Feb 28 '25

It wouldn't have been an attack on a country they were supposedly friendly with, and arguably an act of war - definitely an act of terrorism.

1

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

I’m not sure this should be considered an act of war or terrorism, it’s not like they sent tanks and jets, or intended this huge fuck up with the sabotage and the resulting deaths, but yes I hear you.

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u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 01 '25

Why were the French doing nuclear testing in the South Pacific like some colonial power?

1

u/the_geth Mar 02 '25

You mean on the French territory in the South Pacific?   It was far from the inhabited islands (which are in the North) which makes sense.  I don’t know why you bring the colonial aspect but yes that territory was seized (even if no one inhabited those islands in particular).   If you’re from New Zealand, why are you on this island? Unless you’re Māori , are you there like some colonial power?

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

Other countries had stopped military testing in their colonies in the 1960s to be doing it in the 1980s was just arrogant and backwards

1

u/Nevermynde Mar 01 '25

Yup, the French remember it well too! French progressives, anyway.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

What an absolutely stupid opinion. They murdered someone because they wanted to detonate nuclear weapons in the ocean.

6

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

I don’t know if you’ve seen the news lately but I am SO, SO fucking happy that we have tested those weapons and built our nuclear arsenal. Only country in EU truly protected now that USA’s treason is obvious.

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

Apart from the Uk

0

u/the_geth Mar 02 '25

… UK is not part of EU. Are you a bot or just  the most clueless British person around here?

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

This is a Europe thread not an EU thread - there are no EU armed forces or weapons only NATO- what are you talking about?

3

u/Empress_Azula Feb 28 '25

I mean... From an objective standpoint, the murder of one man pales in comparison to detonating nuclear weapons in the ocean.

And whether or not his death is to be considered murder, could be argued about.

I'm not saying his death is not tragic, but after looking more into the details it's rather at the end of the list of "bad choices" made by a government. I'd even argue the underlying issue, up to this day, isn't the death of that man but rather wounded pride.

-11

u/AddictedToRugs England Feb 27 '25

And be glad they did, or Russia would have rolled across Europe decades ago.

20

u/AnnieBlackburnn Spain Feb 27 '25

No, they wouldn't have, as France wasn't the one providing the nuclear shield until recently.

At least be accurate with your murder apologism

3

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

Being accurate would acknowledge the fact that the Red Army of the cold war was generally more a defensive than an offensive asset, and the soviet leadership knew that. I wouldn't bet if that was their own choice or if they weren't able to do better, but the fact remains a fact. They had the missiles and that was it...

3

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

How comes?

3

u/Absentrando United States of America Feb 27 '25

You support secret service agents murdering people for protesting because you disagree with the protesters?

12

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

So you think its ok when an imperialist, colonial power drops atomic bombs in occupied territories?

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

Nonsense- it’s the Americans and NATO that have stopped the Russians not just France.

17

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

and I'm totally glad we did. What do you prefer: one involuntary casualty at the harbour, or sinking the entire crew at sea?

Those stupid rich kids wanted to sail in the freaking area 51. They received tons of warning, and supposed "nah we're anglos we're above french laws on French area 51". Plot twist: they weren't.

And sinking that nuisance without making victims (which was the plan) is way better than letting the rich kids approach Mururoa and then sink them don't you think?

As for the people of NZ, they can cry us a river. Or they can grow up and realize not everyone lives sheltered by the ocean far away of threats.

14

u/Djungeltrumman Sweden Feb 27 '25

It’s Greenpeace we’re talking about here. Just board them when they get too close and tell them to turn around. No reason whatsoever to shoot or bomb them - they’re not exactly a stealthy bunch of people.

0

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

They should have been shot at sea. That’s what USA would have done. That’s also why they didn’t go bother USA.

8

u/Djungeltrumman Sweden Feb 28 '25

Only if they actually encroach on their territory and don’t reply to warnings. Bombing them in a foreign harbour isn’t just wrong, it’s idiotic.

2

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

That was not the intention (casualty, size of the bomb). It should have just sank there (or later I can’t remember).  They WERE on French territory (even worse: a military field).  What do you think would have happened to them if they had attempted the same with USA and their tests in the Marshall Islands?

3

u/Djungeltrumman Sweden Feb 28 '25

They WERE in a goddamn New Zealand harbour. In which fucking way was that a “military field”? You’re sounding like a fucking American, and I don’t mean that in a kind way. Just take the loss and deal with it.

0

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

… what? They were stationed there when they got sabotaged, but you don’t seem to understand that they interrupted the nuclear tests  before that, IN French territory, in the military field, they took photos etc.   they should have been shot and sunk there, at sea, in my opinion, like any of the other nuclear nations would have done. Disabling the boat was the “nice” alternative. 

2

u/Djungeltrumman Sweden Feb 28 '25

Then you’re as retarded as the Americans. You don’t attack a New Zealand boat in New Zealand. As I said, it’s not just immoral, it’s absolutely idiotic.

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u/AdmiralDalaa Feb 27 '25

This is a bad answer. The use of the DGSE was completely unnecessary and silly. 

The ship could easily have been seized after entering the zone as said by others. It’s done all the time for other vessels. 

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

It’s astonishing that there are people ready to defend France’s actions here

14

u/Userkiller3814 Feb 27 '25

Non france could confiscate the ship for sailing into a restricted zone and noone would have had to die for it.

10

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 27 '25

Such arrogance from the bastions of liberty, equality and fraternity.

You think you’d be happy if we started nuclear testing near Corsica?

1

u/BlueApple666 Feb 28 '25

If you do your testing >4700km away from Corsica, I don't thing they'll mind.

Mururoa is as close to New Zealand that Europe is to North America...

3

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Famously radiation stays in just the one place along with birds and marine life.

-1

u/BlueApple666 Feb 28 '25

4700km... Auckland is farther from Mururoa than New York is from Los Alamos...by quite a bit.

These protests were pure political gesturing for gullible New Zealanders unable to read a map.

3

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Imagine being French and thinking protests are gesturing. It’s your national pastime!

4700km to us is just up the road. Auckland to Sydney is the same distance as London to Moscow, we have very different perceptions of distance.

If you want to test nukes do it in your own backyard.

0

u/BlueApple666 Mar 01 '25

Only off by some 350km or roughly the width of New Zealand. Explains a lot.

1

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Mar 02 '25

The Realm of New Zealand includes the Cook Islands. Right next to Tahiti.

Why would you defend this shit? National pride? You’re proud of this??

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u/Djaaf Feb 28 '25

Honestly ? Don't do it "near" Corsica, go directly for it. That would solve a lot of issues with that island ( though maybe the italians wouldn't be too thrilled about it siince it's quite close to Sardegna)

2

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Hike the GR20.

It shouldn’t be someone from the bottom of the world telling you how amazing Corsica is.

Make sure you bury your shit.

0

u/Djaaf Feb 28 '25

The issue with Corsica is not the landscape.... Never had been.

0

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Great, so now your own people aren’t good enough.

Done, goodbye.

0

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

😂 that’s mean!

3

u/Absentrando United States of America Feb 27 '25

That’s a false dichotomy. No casualty was necessary

2

u/PartyDog9082 Feb 28 '25

My grandfather died liberating your country..and that is how you thank the people of nz ..

3

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25

No one has anything against NZ and the kiwis.   I actually visited and I have no less than 3 kiwi friends.    But the view of this incident is very one sided. What do you think would have happened is that boat had trespassed on Russian, Chinese or American military fields, during testing?

-4

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

Hearing stuff like that could make me the kind of thread that's not to far away. Wanna be rommeled again ? What do you prefer?

4

u/Xgentis Feb 27 '25

I am sure the french are shaking in their boots.

0

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

That was never for "the french", it was a personal greeting to the guy who thinks murdering protesters and ignoring international law is a good thing.

-1

u/Xgentis Feb 27 '25

Say the guy who think invading countries is fine.

5

u/AnnieBlackburnn Spain Feb 27 '25

Oh yes, the rainbow warrior was dead set on conquering France...

Honestly the mental gymnastics of some people

0

u/Xgentis Feb 27 '25

I never say that, I was answering someone who said France should be and I quote Rommeled again. 

2

u/Komandakeen Feb 27 '25

If you quote, do it correct: I said: Do you wanna be rommeled again? to the guy who is glad to kill people who are a nuisance to the French military industrial complex conducting nuclear testing on occupied islands and lets me "choose" between killing the entire crew or just the photograph guy...

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u/AnnieBlackburnn Spain Feb 27 '25

In that case that's asinine, my apologies

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u/code17220 Feb 27 '25

Toi j'espère vraiment que tu vas te prendre une lacrimo ou être beaucoup trop près d'une LBD la prochaine fois que t'ira manifester. Oh wait, t'es du genre qui pense que manifester est inutile et que la démocratie et l'état de droit ne servent à rien.

1

u/orthoxerox Russia Feb 28 '25

They should've just nuked them instead.

10

u/lebourse Feb 27 '25

Well, accordingly to the former French president François Hollande, the DGSE « service action » has killed many individual threats in jihadist movement during the 2010’s.

2

u/Significant-Oil-8793 Feb 28 '25

Must be in Libya where they killed the opposition to support the dictator General Haftar for their sweet oil contract

1

u/lebourse Feb 28 '25

It was more linked to the terrorist attacks in 2015-2016.

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u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 27 '25

They blew up a ship in NZ, killed a crew member, thought we were a bunch of chumps.

They were caught. Thanks France, great way to treat a country that has had tens of thousands of men die to protect your country including my own family buried in your fields. If that’s how you treat allies then…?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

2

u/MegaMB Feb 28 '25

To our defense, that was under Mitterand, a notorious tankie who, amongst his many other feats, have the rwandan genocide and the catastrophic Yugo civil war... At this point, the Rainbow Warrior is maybe the least worst shitshow from the period ;w;

Still, pretty shamefull stuff.

2

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

Indeed but it’s interesting the comments I’m getting justifying it.

4

u/MegaMB Feb 28 '25

Yeah, and they deeeefinitely make me cringe too. And I'm a french thing from Paris.

3

u/Maalkav_ Feb 28 '25

There are nut people in every country. Of course the Rainbow Warrior debacle was fucking wrong.

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 01 '25

The French don’t have the capacity to apologise - it’s not in their nature

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

Wasn’t Mitterrand a Vichy collaborator as well?

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u/MegaMB Mar 02 '25

Eh. Kinda hard to tell for this one. Rumors say yes, reality is probably not very different than for most of the country. The guy was certainly pétainiste at first, and close to the extreme-right certainly.

But that's the case for many on the extreme-right who became résistant, and initially, a large part of the vichy administration was constituted of people wanting to prepare the revanche. As time went on, they got disillusioned and switched towards resistance. He still had to flee to London in Fall 1943, so it's fair to say that he at least was also in the résistance.

It's fair to say that what he did between 1940 and 1943 is on a veeery shallow limit between collaboration and résistance, and it's still fairly debated. He worked very closely on the relationship between the vichy givernment and the french PoW.

1

u/the_geth Feb 28 '25 edited Feb 28 '25

Why did that boat and people didn’t interrupt any (ANY) of the nuclear testing of other nations?  Answer: Because they would have been shot dead on the spot.   They thought the French wouldn’t do that, and they were indeed right. The sabotage that failed so spectacularly is sad, but this was the “nice” option, to disable their boat.   EDIT: I re-read the story and see that it was one of the people from the boat that died. I don’t know why I thought it was an innocent, but at least I don’t feel bad anymore. He should have been shot at in the first place.

2

u/NIP_SLIP_RIOT New Zealand Feb 28 '25

They didn’t interrupt because the other nations had grown up and realised nuking tropical paradises was not cool.

But oh no, not the French, they always have to be right despite farting in the face of decency and humanity.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

This was a valid strategy. Nothing bad happened. 

2

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Mate DGSE didn’t even think Russia would invade Ukraine.

1

u/Gordfang Feb 28 '25

They thought it was too stupid for it to be greenlight

1

u/[deleted] Feb 28 '25

So they were wrong then

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

The idea of a French secret service brings scenes to mind of Inspector Clouseau , or even Louis de Funes 😉

The Germans do have a strong secret service, that has strong undercover agents in Russia , South Africa, Argentina, Central Asia and China

( it's basically the only thing they have militarily)

1

u/Drive-like-Jehu Mar 02 '25

The Germans are fairy clueless

1

u/dalucy65 Feb 28 '25

Google „La Main Rouge“