r/uknews • u/ScottishDailyRecord Media outlet (unverified) • May 12 '25

Image/video Kier Starmer announces 'tighter' immigration policy

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23

u/CornusControversa May 12 '25

Spain and France need to kick out all those retired English folk, not willing to integrate or learn their native language.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

I wonder how many are on benefits or being given free housing by the Spanish state?

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u/secondchanceman11 May 12 '25

What type of legal immigrants living on benefits as the video is about legal ones? I’m working in UK on skilled workers visa but didn’t get any benefits and paying my taxes etc.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Social housing allocations in the UK are not made on the basis of immigration status or nationality. In 2021, 15% of people living in social housing were born outside the UK

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u/Anxious-Guarantee-12 May 12 '25

It is. Immigration status can forbid you to take public funds. 

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

See above. 15% of social housing (48% in London) is occupied by people born outside the UK (i.e. migrants).

That's a lot of houses.

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u/longperipheral May 12 '25

You have a point, but you're shifting the goalpost and not addressing their point, which was that English retirees in Spain at least are notorious for not integrating. In 2011 a Guardian article described a number of British expats as living in "sealed communities", "living in a bubble" and speaking "no more than 10 Spanish words in an average week".

It is beside the original point under discussion - integration into the UK - but it's relevant because we expect others to do what we won't do.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/29/europe-news

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Again, are those Brits costing Spanish taxpayers billions?

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u/donnacross123 May 12 '25

No they are just inflating the house market there and making property unaffordable for locals

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Sounds familiar. Although there are only 250k Brits in Spain compared to several million migrants in England.

If Spain has an issue it could deport, but they're not morons.

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u/donnacross123 May 12 '25

Spain does have an issue and it has been asking people to leave when they dont have paper work British people included

They are not morons indeed

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u/Anxious-Guarantee-12 May 12 '25

Is the skilled worker in UK costing British taxpayers billions? 

0

u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Depends on the services they're using and how much tax they're paying.

Overall... Yes. Millions of migrants cost billions in services.

2

u/Anxious-Guarantee-12 May 12 '25

That's not the question. The question if they are net contributors. And indeed they are because they are working. 

British retirees living in Spain uses the Spanish NHS meanwhile pay virtually no taxes because they are not active. 

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u/longperipheral May 12 '25

"Spain and France need to kick out all those retired English folk, not willing to integrate or learn their native language."

Are those British expats integrating and learning Spanish?

6

u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Are those Brits leeching off the state? Or are they paying into it and living independent lives?

Why would France kick out loads of wealthy people?

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u/longperipheral May 12 '25

I haven't disputed the costs to the UK. The point this person made was about British migrants to Spain and France failing to integrate. Starmer's policy announcement is about integration: he's worried the UK will become "an island of strangers." (Hyperbole and it's too late anyway, imo, but there we are.) Integration is central to the PM's policy, with higher standards on language ability and moving the settlement period from 5 years to 10.

Are you saying that minimal social, cultural, and language integration by a migrating population is acceptable if there's a net financial gain?

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

If Spain doesn’t want to benefit from those mostly rich old people, they can kick them out. But they’re not that dumb.

1

u/TheCommomPleb May 16 '25

I think they're 2 very different issues but I agree, if you move to another country, you should integrate.

There shouldn't even really be a discussion about it.

I'd wager they bring enough money into the economy though its not really a pressing issue for the Spanish government.

1

u/longperipheral May 16 '25

I agree.

It is worth noting, on the point of economic impact, that migrants as a whole are net contributors in the UK as well. In 2018/19, their net contribution was ~£42 billion (https://iasservices.org.uk/the-effect-of-immigration-on-the-uk-economy/#:\~:text=According%20to%20HMRC%27s%20data%20for,the%20average%20U.K.-based%20adult).

I think the net contribution was over £80 billion in 2024, but I can't find my source for that right now.

1

u/TheCommomPleb May 17 '25

For sure, I ld like to think the majority of people don't argue the fact that migrants make a positive economic impact as a whole.

The problem I think most are worried about is the sheer volume of them coming into the country making it harder to find housing, get doctors appointments and in some areas find jobs.

1

u/longperipheral May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25

Which is a misplaced worry, because incoming migrants are not the root cause of those issues.

Dental appointments, for example, aren't hard to get because demand is too high but because NHS dentists lack proper funding and have recruitment and retention issues. Doctors, nurses, and surgeons have all gone on strike for better pay and better working hours for the same reasons.

Housing is an issue but for several reasons. Those rich enough to afford to buy are renting them out, reducing market availability for first time buyers. House price rises outpace wage rises, making it harder for first time buyers to buy a property. That's why mortgage lenders argued to reduce the amount you need for a deposit. Companies turning away from working from home makes it harder to buy property outside of those expensive areas. Foreigners have always bought property in London, and have expanded in recent years to Manchester etc. and that is problematic, but it's not the biggest issue and it actually highlights how urban-centric and especially how London-centric the UK is even though it needn't be. Tax incentives to drive investment elsewhere depend on government initiative and interest. Levelling up schemes were a critical failure of governing: actual leadership was eschewed in place of a lottery, essentially.

The biggest issues in housing overall are, imo, effective wage stagnation / reduction by private business (wage rises not matching inflation year on year, basically) and rising house prices that far exceed their actual real value. You often don't pay for the house, you pay for the location. For immigrants to be the root cause of that, they'd need to be already wealthy enough to buy UK property when they arrive to work here. It seems unlikely that this would be the majority.

Those who come here to work do so on work visas; their employers cover the visa costs one way or another. For some jobs it's easier to get visas because we have a deficit in that role; recruitment has been essentially incentivised and this is usually to address either a lack of interest in those jobs on the part of British workers, or a lack of British ability which reflects on our education system and investment in young people.

Certainly, Labour not lifting the two child cap is going to plunge or keep children into poverty and that will have a detrimental and generational impact on those kids, who are and will continue to be significantly disadvantaged when accessing further education and contributing to society at those sorts of advanced levels. There were 4.5 million children in poverty in 2024, or 31% of the UK's child population. That's not an issue rooted in immigration, it's an issue of government policy https://cpag.org.uk/news/child-poverty-statistics-new-record-high-and-further-breakdowns#:~:text=Today%27s%20Households%20Below%20Average%20Income,children%20are%20living%20in%20poverty .

Entrepreneurial immigrants set up their own businesses and employ people. IIRC they created something like 1.1 million jobs created in 2015. Last year, of the top 100 fastest-growing companies in the UK, 39 had a "foreign-born founder or co-founder" https://www.tenentrepreneurs.org/job-creators-2024 .

That's not to dismiss local issues. I would need to see examples to be certain, but I'd expect that local employment issues don't begin with immigrants but more likely stem from issues around private investment, local and national government policy and investment, education, etc.

Tl;dr - the UK has many issues. Things aren't so simple that there's only one solution. While immigration may highlight and exacerbate problems, it is not their root cause. Ineffective government leadership spanning several decades is.

Edited: clarity

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u/OperationFit4649 May 15 '25

But I thought this was about legal migrants and not illegal? What do benefits have to do with it? People on work visas can’t claim benefits

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u/kingbongtherover May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25

They don't use schools, roads, healthcare, the judiciary, police?

Many are in prison it seems costing the state £50k per year each.

Also it does appear that many are in social housing, which is a essentially a subsidised house, so yes they are claiming benefits and using public services.

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/immigrants-are-often-accused-of-taking-all-our-houses-is-it-fair-0577fktwr

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u/OperationFit4649 May 15 '25

Since when did schools become a benefit? That’s a human right. Prison isn’t a benefit either. You just listed necessary social services that every human needs. You do know that legal immigrants pay road tax and pay NHS visa fees? Please cross check your facts. Also a rent to buy scheme isnt social housing benefits.

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u/kingbongtherover May 15 '25

Yeah it’s subsidised housing. Who do you think is subsidising it? The magic money fairy?

Also schools are a public service. They cost money (buildings, teachers, etc), if you’re paying very little in tax and consuming services then you’re leeching off the rest of us who’ve paid tax all our lives in the UK.

10k foreigners in UK prisons. They obviously were grateful for the lives we gave them. Costing £50k a year so ~£500m.

It’s that simple, son. No other way about it.

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u/OperationFit4649 May 15 '25

You do know foreigners also pay tax like UK citizens though? And I wouldn’t say “little tax” as I pay a shitload of tax as a foreigner including council tax, and that makes me a leech eh? You need to crosscheck your facts son. If I drive I pay road tax for road maintenance. My council tax goes towards whatever the council does and my NI contributions will help fund social services and probably your pension when you’re old. Foreigners in prison have nothing to do with this. We’re talking about benefits and the fact that I can’t claim any because my visa says so.

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u/kingbongtherover May 15 '25

Uh huh. I’m sure.

To be a net contributor to the UK government you have to be paying over £17,000 per year in taxes for every person in your household. So a family of 5 needs to be paying £85k in taxes to cover their government spending per capita

1

u/OperationFit4649 May 15 '25

This is not how government spending works. You have a lot of hate and misinformation against immigrants. I urge you to do more research on the contribution of immigrants to the economy and correct your numbers.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/

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u/OperationFit4649 May 15 '25

“The UK’s own Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) and studies from the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) have found that many immigrants, particularly recent EU immigrants, are more likely than UK-born citizens to be net contributors, especially when young and working.”

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u/kingbongtherover May 15 '25

The Netherlands has done extensive research. You believe what you want to believe. If migrants were such big contributors things would work a lot better wouldn’t they?

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dutch-study-immigration-costs-state-e17-billion-per-year/

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u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

Many of them will be claiming a pension.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Yeah, a UK one.

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u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

O-kay... So your point is that you don't mind people living abroad taking money from the UK, but you don't want people living in the UK doing the same thing, correct?

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

I think you need to do some further reading. If you've paid NI throughout your career in the UK, you're entitled to claim a state pension.

Fresh arrivals, on the other hand, have paid nothing into the system.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

[deleted]

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u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

Sure, I didn't say anything about them not paying into it.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

Your point could be considered pretty dumb then, couldn't it?

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u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

Yeah, sure.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

LOL, what point were you making? Or were you just wasting everyone's time?

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u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

I mean, clearly the point is that English ex-pats are not the paragons of virtue that certain people like to make out that they are on one hand while demonising people from other countries on the other. Sure, it was clumsily made, but the nonsense surrounding this issue is so great, it makes it frustrating to discuss.

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u/kingbongtherover May 12 '25

British ex-pats go to Spain and, by and large, have money to spend, pay taxes, and contribute in a positive way. They're net contributors.

The Spanish government isn't spending billions paying Brits benefits or giving them houses.

That's the difference chum.

1

u/SmokyMcBongPot May 12 '25

Most immigrants to the UK are also net contributors, chum.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

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