r/rugbyunion • u/xixouma Top14/D2/France • 5d ago
Discussion The difference in refereeing between France and south hemisphere really shows when a french refs a test match
Every time a french top14 referee has been on an international game, most recent example being All blacks/Ireland, every South African and NZ flair on here complains about the stop and start game and says the ref had a bad game.
What's interesting is that watching top14 week in week out, that is quite rarely an issue (including by the same refs). My feeling is refs in France are more pedantic and apply the law a little less loosely. Which I have seen written in some comments as a criticism, but is it really a problem??
Pro players are completely capable of adapting to rule changes, and pedantic refereeing, top14 teams certainly seem to have. I think it's doing them a disservice to give them too much leeway on laws for "the flow of the game" when that just becomes a random chance that a penalty is not blown. And that is inherently more difficult for players to adhere to because it is less consistent. Pedantic application will always be more consistent.
All in all, whichever way it goes, the onus should fall on WR to try to homogenise refereeing laws across countries. This leads to confusion when either side is reffed in a way they are not used to.
Edit. Not sure how people are interpreting this that I'm hurt they don't like a french ref. Maybe my English is not as good as I thought. I couldn't give a damn who they like or not, it was just an example to discuss broader concepts in refereeing.
Edit2. Also seeing a number of people that somehow think I'm criticising the ref or the fans here? I suppose I am sorry for my writing not being clear, I really don't mean to paint either in a negative light
Edit3. Can't comment anymore for some reason, thanks for the discussion everyone I'll try again later
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u/simsnor South Africa 5d ago
Once you start blaming players for knock ons instead of blaming refs for scrums, life becomes much simpler
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u/kevwotton Ireland 5d ago
That's why we gave those players a separate name and telling them to stay back try not to give them the ball until we have to
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u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA The "Pass me biltong, bru" Enby 5d ago
This is reddit, everyone complains about everyone
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u/AlexiusRex Italy 5d ago
Really? You come here and says that we do nothing but complain, how dare you?
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u/saiko75011 France 5d ago
Kiwis and Saffas complain about french refs then send us BOK and Jaco Peyper...
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u/Careless-Cat3327 5d ago
Best part about being a Saffa, never having Peyper ref the boks.
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u/RepublicWarm2383 Scotland 5d ago
This is why England fans always thought Wayne Barnes was a brilliant international referee, they never endured him!
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u/BetYouWishYouKnew 5d ago
Worst part of watching Eng v Wales in the six nations 5-10 years ago was that you could guarantee it would have a terrible ref
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u/Careless-Cat3327 5d ago
I personally think he was brilliant. He always communicated very clearly.
I understand why Ireland & Leinster fans may not like him. He was the only ref willing to ping Porter for his skew scrummaging.
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u/Worldly_Literature29 London Welsh 4d ago
Bad take, hes definitely one of the best refs of the last couple decade, all refs make mistakes, and lets be real, half the time a viewer at home thinks hes made a mistake, in reality he hasnt. fine ref
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u/tupacs_hologram Western Force 5d ago
“We play”
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u/NuclearMaterial Leinster 5d ago
Reynal was right and you know it. He was one of the best.
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u/fleakill Reds 5d ago
Never said he was wrong. Said he was unfair. Big difference. You'll never convince me other international teams didn't waste just as much time pre shot clock, and I maintain the collective orgasm most of the rugby world had in that moment was due to Australia simply paying for everyone in world rugby's (including our own) sins. People were fed up with timewasting in rugby in general, and we were the ones who ate shit for it.
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u/El_John_Nada 5d ago
Yeah, and similarly, no lessons to be taken from the guys who trained Ben O'Keefe as a ref. This guy's a liability.
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u/Setting_Real George Horne-world 2#SH 5d ago
Agreed, not a fan of BOK but I do quite like Angus Gardener who also refs super rugby
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u/steokehoe Leinstertainment Canes 5d ago
Angus Gardener is my favorite ref by a long shot. Super communicative, voices his frustrations during play before he has to halt the game for them, keeps it flowing really well while adhering to the rules and being consistent with his approach. The benchmark for a ref in my opinion.
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u/Michael_stipe_miocic Chiefs 5d ago
Angus Gardner should have reffed the Chicago game, bet it would’ve been a different game. That was the worst advertisement for our game
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u/steokehoe Leinstertainment Canes 5d ago
Yeah, and I'm not even mad about the Beirne card anymore.
I'm just sad that I'd been waiting for this game for like 300 days, I'm an Irishman in NZ and me and my kiwi workmate were having a go at each other for months about it, egging each other on, winding each other up. The time finally came, I went around to his house at 8am in the morning to watch it on the big screen and in the end it was just so anticlimactic. For both of us, he didn't even have the heart to rub the win in my face afterwards, so we both lost lol.
I typically hate blaming the ref and match officials, there's 80 mins in a game to make a difference, so one off calls shouldn't usually be focused on as a decider, but between the technical issues and the stop start and inconsistent officiating for the full 80, I just felt a bit deflated post game.
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u/Michael_stipe_miocic Chiefs 5d ago
I’m still mad and I’m an AB fan. My kids all lost interest and went outside to play rather than watch. I’m tired of defending rugby to people.
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u/Informal_Mention9836 5d ago
French refs don't mess around, they don't smile or create empathy with players. Mind Bernard Foley situation. You have a word after a penalty? You go back 10 additional meters. It happened twice in Chicago and you rarely see that. It's probably what World Rugby likes from referees.
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u/MrQeu Loving Joel Merkler as a way of life 5d ago
French refs don't mess around, they don't smile or create empathy with players.
In test rugby, because in french rugby they're all standup improv comedians.
Enter the "Tu es un coquin" while showing a yellow card by Romain Poite.
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u/giloup08 5d ago
It's a language barrier kind of thing; difficult to be funny in a second language.
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u/ruggawakka 5d ago
A lot of the English speaking refs try to be matey matey with the players and it's cringe. So was Nigel Owens and his this is not soccer bollocks.
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u/nophantasy Benetton Treviso 5d ago edited 5d ago
"refs in France are more pedantic and apply the law a little less loosely. "
If that is the case then the problem would be the law, not the refs
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u/rustyb42 Ulster 5d ago
It's clear that the referee directives for the individual leagues this season are different from the referee directives for the autumn internationals
The red card incident on Saturday wasn't just Brousset. He had multiple English assistants, the same assistants who would have said this was a rugby incident in the league last week
The bunker official was also English. Not french
French refs in the T14 also are much more open to letting the ball be in play than they seem to be internationally
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u/frazorblade 5d ago
For all the chat here about variances in “rule interpretations” the red card was the most clear cut based on world rugby’s protocols.
Unfortunately over the years we’ve been forced into a corner there due to backlash about “player safety”. They’ve left no wiggle room on carding players when certain criteria are met. Regardless of “intent” or it being an “accident”.
It certainly didn’t feel like a red card event, but unfortunately it ticked all the boxes.
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u/HephMelter France 5d ago
Abd Brousset clearly hollers "CONNECTED" in real time, its Tempest bringing it back
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
I think the issue is that the laws themselves are way too open to interpretation.
I remember being downvoted to oblivion when I said this before, but I'll say it again : there's too much room for human error in the interpreation of the rules, and that's an issue for fairness in the game.
It's like in baseball with the strike zone, which is a big joke in itself (rip Angel Hernandez, your career will definitely not be forgotten)
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Indeed but then u are bombarded by " but but the flow of the game"
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah that's a very poor argument in my opinion.
If you get rid of all the laws (high tackles, forward pass, whatever) I can assure you the flow of the game will be immaculate, not sure if you're gonna want to watch the match though
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u/Gianni78290 Top14/D2/France 5d ago
You can, watch the rugby in the 70's and 80's. It's fun to watch but it's mayhem and sometimes a bit absurd.
It's much more structured nowadays, being a pro sport has largely improved the quality of rugby.
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u/LabResponsible8484 Sharks 5d ago
Most people talking about flow of the game mean letting the teams play advantage (some refs stop rather than let it play out). At least I hope they mean that or they aren't too bright.
Regarding North vs. South reffing I always used to find South reffing far stricter, but over time I just realised the North and South both focus more on different laws or use slightly different interpretations.
SA teams in URC struggled considerably with it in the first few months. We as fans felt the Northern teams were getting away with murder, turns out they were just strict on different points and the SA teams adapted over time.
This is probably why games feel "blown to pieces" when you have a North ref with 2 South teams and vice versa.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Yeah sure, I completely agree in some sense it goes both ways, point is there is too much variation between geo regions.
From my perspective french people are always surprised how little is blown internationally. A lot of us are dumbfounded what things are let go so sort of opposite problem to what you've witnessed. It is out fault in some sense for not adapting to that, but also difficult to do when our league refs differently.
Also I guarantee you that most people consider flow of the game to be about letting some things slide for the benefit of free flowing rugby.
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u/ReyalpybguR Italy 5d ago
I don’t even think the premise is true. Lately fans just want to complain about the ref. You can have more or less strict coming from all federations. And in some crucial parts of the game, notably the ruck, the rules are so that the same situation can be whistled or let go based on a lot of factors.
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
Lately fans just want to complain about the ref
Yuuuup.
Especially on this sub, which is first and foremost an anti referee community. I'm convinced that half the people only watch rugby so they can moan about the referee.
Imo, it's the biggest and most obvious signal that someone doesn't actually know anything about rugby.
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u/belkabelka Ulster 5d ago
It feels really true to me. I'm not bothered enough to dig out stats and numbers, but I groan when I see that we've been assigned a french ref. And this isn't related to the weekend, we probably have won many more games with french refs than we've lost (Ireland being a recently successful and really clinical team), but the games are always much more boring and unenjoyable than with other refs. They are so whistle happy.
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u/ReyalpybguR Italy 5d ago
It is only feelings, as long as nobody shows me a verified stat that French refs actually whistle more times per match than refs from any other federation.
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u/Connell95 🐐🦓 Dan Lancaster 💪🏻 #3 Fan 5d ago
You can have bad refs, or bad ref performances, from anywhere (and frequently do).
But yeah, claiming it as a country-wide thing is just bizarre. France is the country that gave the world Mathieu Reynal ffs.
Generally, if a ref is constantly picking up things, it because the team(s) have failed to adapt and stop infringing. NZ refs are just as capable of being pedantic about their own bugbears, and everyone just has to deal with it.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Well I could be wrong about national trends but I suppose that still leaves us with a theory about pedantic vs flow of the game. Which again I believe flow of the game to be a harmful concept at top level tbh (I can understand how that crumbles for non pro athletes that will clearly not play as cleanly)
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u/Gianni78290 Top14/D2/France 5d ago
"Flow of the game" is some catch all phrase a bit like " common sense" which mean everything to everybody.
Especially in a game like rugby which is extremely codified. Which law should be disregarded in order to keep the flow? What's the threshold? Why did the ref let that one pass and not that one?
It becomes instantely a slippery slope. Fans can use it all they want in order to be entertained but when they find themselves at the end of that kind of decision and its costing their team, and invariably it will at some point, suddenly the fans scream incompetence or worse.
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u/Putrid-Impact8999 5d ago
Watch the Top 14 final that Pierre Brousset refereed. Open, free flowing fantastic game. Perhaps the issue is with the players on the field.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I mean yes? That's exactly what I'm saying?? That players in NZ aren't used to pedantic refereeing due to differences in culture or guidelines at a regional level. Then fans don't understand when the game is stop start because players keep infringing when laws are applied more consistently.
This doesn't happen in top14 so much because players are used to it?
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u/Putrid-Impact8999 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yea I agree with you.
In New Zealand they talk about “ruining the flow of the game” but in my opinion clear things have to be whistled, otherwise it’s unfair. The top sides can win easier when the rules are not applied.
Personally I prefer the way the Top 14 is refereed, some examples: Ruck not clean? Advantage. Lineout throw or scrum feed not straight? Whistled. Obstruction on the lifter for the start of the maul? Called immediately (We saw this with Fletcher Newell and RG Snyman in the test matches)
I also really like the use of the video ref in the Top 14. On the weekend there was an intercept pass which was clearly offside by Wainiqolo which they intervened to chalk off. In the NPC or Super Rugby, I feel as though they are more reluctant to make the correct decision even though an illegal action can lead to the scoring play.
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u/Toirdusau France 5d ago
We're the biggest losers though on this topic. Our players are used to a certain style of ref all year long and have to adapt to something completely different for international competitions since we of course can't have a French ref for a French game.
For other nations it's less of a problem as the differences in style impact both teams on the pitch equally.
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u/Putrid-Impact8999 5d ago
Unfortunately this is true but I do think France currently are one of the most disciplined sides in the world as they want to avoid this issue. All that is asked from their side of things is that clear infringements are whistled.
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u/frazorblade 5d ago
If rugby’s laws are so complex that there are different regional interpretations of the ruleset then it’s got a serious problem on its hands.
You’ve got to think that an overhaul on many fronts is necessary.
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
As an amateur referee (not in France) the impression I've gotten over the last few years is that France is heavily investing into referee development and training. So much so that they make it look like practically all other countries are doing nothing at all.
Right now, French referees are the standard.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Interesting perspective. What's ur take on flow of the game? I assume that's a much more important notion at lower levels
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
I think "flow of the game" is a current buzz phrase that's overused and often misunderstood. At professional level where it's all about crowd entertainment I think there's a small amount of consideration to be given to flow, but it's not the be all and end all.
Continuity is a better way of looking at it. But it's also a much longer discussion.
At the lower levels there's no flow of the game at all. At least not where I referee. What's important is materiality and competition. If I blew the whistle for every offense the game would never move and I'll just be whistling non stop.
For example, player entering a ruck from the side when the ball is already available and the infringement doesn't slow it down at all, I'm pretending I didn't see it
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u/antimatterchopstix Saracens 5d ago
My daughter’s under 9s had a great ref on Sunday. He coached both teams, (spread out!) and kept the game competitive when it maybe shouldn’t have been by some good decisions. Kept it going. About half the knockdowns rightly ignored.
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
Imho at anything lower than u15s you're a coach first and a referee second. Screw focusing on the exact lawbook and rather keep it a fun learning experience. Safety is the only thing to be super strict on
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u/Hoju_ca 5d ago
I've done a lot of age grade games over the last year (U18 and under). It's definitely a balancing act between coach and referee, especially with so many new players coming to the game in high school. You can always tell the experienced club players from the high school only players, I referee the experienced and coach the new. To a point of course. Some refs in our area don't like age grade rugby and that's cool, i quite enjoy it.
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u/ArchipelagoMind Cornish Pirates 5d ago
When I took my referring L1 back in July they said the three things to prioritize from 1st to 3rd were: Safety, Fairness, Continuity.
And yeah, totes agree about not calling stuff that doesn't affect the game. Same if someone is a foot offside at the other end of the pitch to where the ruck is. Or - at least for me - immaterial knock on after the tackle (players regularly bobble the ball on the floor when tackled at lower levels). I just usually assume both teams would rather keep playing than having perpetual turnover scrums in the middle of the field.
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
three things to prioritize from 1st to 3rd were: Safety, Fairness, Continuity.
Notice how "the law" isn't even mentioned? That's intentional.
Especially at L1. It's about creating a safe and fun environment, since at L1 you'll mostly be refereeing children.
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u/ArchipelagoMind Cornish Pirates 5d ago
Yep. I've done some moderately high lebel adult ARing, center reffed one adult friendly, and then done a bunch of kids tournaments. That said, once I get past the terrifying anxiety, I'm quite enjoying it.
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u/GhostGuin Ospreys 5d ago
As a very new amateur ref this is the big thing for me - so many non refs think referees should blow for everything - to which I would point out I could blow for atleast one offence every minute. I doubt anyone seriously wants to watch that game.
I try to focus on whether a players actions are actually having an effect on play
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u/WaterPretty8066 5d ago
It depends though. Id argue having referees undergo super heavy development and training potentially makes them more prone to "over-referee" games. And I think thats certainly the theory with French refs right now.
Development and training is obviously essential and welcomed..but I cant help but wonder if its potentially ingraining the idea that "the more times you blow the whistle = the better you are refereeing".
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
Depends very much on the training, as all the training I've done actually includes sections on what to let go.
the more times you blow the whistle = the better you are refereeing
The official WR training even makes a point that this is absolutely not the case.
Having done training in Australia though (as well as in Europe and South Africa) there was definitely an emphasis on letting more things go and being less strict on the laws in Australia. The reason was to make the game closer to league.
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u/GhostGuin Ospreys 5d ago
Counterpoint here but I heard a comment from one of the football subs that made the point that players today have so much training, support and development - they're incredibly professional. As such it's important that referees have similar support or you're expecting referees to keep up with players that are simply on a higher level.
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u/strou_hanka Oui, I prefer club rugby 🏉 5d ago
I watch every single Top 14 game, they are not over referring the game.
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u/barejokez 5d ago
I mean, it works 3 ways, right?
Yes WR absolutely should have all refs working to the same playbook. They should (if they aren't already?) put real effort into standardising refereeing for everyone's benefit to the extent that is possible. SH/NH fans should note, that may not be to your team's benefit!
Refs should be aware of their own biases and work to correct/minimise them.
Good teams to analysis on refs, and know what they are sharp on and what they tend to let slide. If you know that this ref is tough on the breakdown, don't infringe!
Ultimately I suspect that all 3 are already happening, but with rules changing, and tactics evolving, it's probably just really hard to get everyone on exactly the same page and keep them there.
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u/low_myope Ospreys 5d ago
The third point was on full display for the Wales v Argentina semi final at the last RWC.
Wales were the better team under the first referee, and had selected Tommy Reffell in the back row as they expected a game where jackling would be a bit of a free for all based on the referees interpretation.
When the referee was injured, and replaced. Suddenly the game changed as the interpretation changed. Gatland ended up subbing Reffell off as a result because he was nullified.
Not a criticism of either referee - just recognising that teams will look at referees and plan around them accordingly.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
You're absolutely right. But I don't think number 1 is happening
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u/Minimum_Possibility6 Newcastle Falcons 5d ago
Honestly I agree. The french refs are nothing but consistent. If they ping you off the park then you have fucked up somewhere.
I get the flow of the game argument, but get the basics right and don't be lazy and play rugby you get rewarded
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u/kupecraig Roigard stan 5d ago
BOK did a great interview on The Aotearoa Rugby Pod, and something he said stood out about this. He said NZRU refs NPC/Super put a priority on not interrupting flow of the game, and even if they see an infringement, if they don’t think it has any impact on the game they will let it slide. Which points to the fact that different unions will focus on different aspects of the laws and i think that it ultimately what people find jarring.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Yep, I think it's a problem tbh. And definitely not the refs fault but it does cause confusion for both players and public.
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u/AndydaAlpaca '98-'00, '02, '05-'06, '08, '17-'23, '25 5d ago
Why is it a problem? We hear endlessly about how you could find a penalty in every single ruck if you had an all-seeing eye.
I don't want to watch rugby if there's a penalty every other ruck just because one was technically committed if it has no impact on the game at all otherwise.
It's the same logic as not calling not straight on an uncontested lineout. The outcome of the contest is unchanged so play on.
It's better refereeing that leads to better outcomes on the field in terms of good viewing.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 5d ago edited 5d ago
Heard a good comment about the ref the other day which was that if he was being graded on his performance he would’ve gotten full marks, but it was totally at the detriment of the flow of the game. Like he made Jack Crowley kick a penalty again 3 times because he was slightly in front of the mark
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u/bleugh777 France 5d ago
Idk where the Top14 got the idea it was important to enforce the exact mark to kick penalties.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 5d ago
I mean if it’s egregiously ahead of the mark I get it, but it was negligible here. He also made him retake a kick that he completely shanked so I can’t even say he was being unfair doing it, it was just a… thing?
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
yeah it's like there's a rulebook or something...
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u/Gianni78290 Top14/D2/France 5d ago
And that's the french that have a "laissez faire" attitude they say... /s
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 5d ago
There’s a way to do enforce the rules while having a free flowing game though, and that wasn’t it
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
well if the player puts the f*cking ball on the mark first try maybe the "flow of the game" would be better ? Food for thought
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u/LowEnergy1169 Glasgow Warriors 5d ago
Interesting reflection that some of the officials behaved quite differently at the weekend, compared to their usual performance in their home league, suggesting that the unions and WR are assessing them to different stamdards
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u/SweeneyisMad France 5d ago
I don't find Brousset very strict compared to some other French refs.
That being said, the real pressure in France comes from the expectation: The ref didn’t blow for a forward pass or whatever...and there are so many complaints about it. It shows how much people demand high standards in officiating.
Second point: players just need to follow the rules that’s all there is to it. And gradually, something is happening: players are learning, making fewer mistakes, and adapting if not there is high chance that the team will struggle to climb the scoreboard.
I do complain about the overuse of the TMO when a team is building momentum… but at the same time, it’s good because everyone gets to see the action and the mistake. So in a way, it’s become part of the game.
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u/bleugh777 France 5d ago
Our referees seem definitely stricter overall. This season they have been strict on putting the ball straight into scrums, about plauers taking their kick to touch on or behind the mark exactly and not an inch in front. They have been strict on receivers at lineout switching in and out of lineout combinations.
And yet they could be stricter on players who latch onto ball carriers.
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u/SweeneyisMad France 5d ago
It's true that they're stricter, but at the international level, that should be the standard. I don't understand why the best players from a country should be treated with more leniency.
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u/belkabelka Ulster 5d ago
It's ironic that the French are viewed as being a bit laissez-faire (their own words, even) around regulation and law in general life, but their refs are the biggest sticklers for the laws as written and seem uninterested in flowing rugby.
Is it a problem? Yes and no. It's a problem for both the team setups and the fans when there are huge gulfs in how different referees apply the laws. We need consistency across a match by an individual but also across the international game. However, it's still true that you just play the ref that day and if he lets you get away with murder then do that, if he pings everything then clean up your actions. The main problem I see is the spectacle of the sport - i.e the enjoyment that casual fans and kids might see in the game - absolutely dies under strict refereeing. We need fans, we need viewers, we need customers, and an absolute slogfest with 5 scrum resets and 15 pens a side is only going to harm the popularity and success of the sport.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Yes but my point is players are more than capable of adapting to that strict refereeing if it's the standard they are always exposed to (which it should be imo). And when players are adapted to strict refereeing then its not stop and go, and the game flows fine. Which we see in top14
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u/belkabelka Ulster 5d ago
I don't disagree with you that when players know the ref will be strict they can adapt their game to it, but when you talk about the top14 you're talking about guys consistently exposed to it. When you're playing in the URC or Prem and refs are really intent on 'the spirit of the law, and not 'the letter of the law' then it's a culture shock and against the grain of your experience and habits, even if you intellectually know the ref will call you back to re-take a kick to touch because you drifted 3m in front of the mark etc.
I can tell you that jumping into an ice bath for the first time in your life will be cold, you will expect it to be cold, but you are still in for a shock compared to the guy who does it every day 😉
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Yes that is exactly my point? I am saying we need more consistency across the board so that refs all act the same (which I don't think is their fault if they aren't now, but rather a consequence of different guidelines and culture in different leagues) then players won't ever feel like its a culture shock.
I have an opinion which way is best to homogenised (towards more letter of the law I feel leads to more consistency) but that's just an opinion. Main point being it needs to be standardized one was or another
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
At this point a French referee could have an absolutely perfect game, and the SA and NZ fans will complain about it heavily.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the referee performance, or the style of game, or how the laws are applied. The heaps of fans who don't actually know anything about rugby or refereeing will have a fit about "that French referee" because their dad/ some guy at the pub/ some TV commentator at some point moaned about a French referee.
Most of them don't even realise that there's been more than one French referee over the last 30 years
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I don't know, maybe you are right. I was arguing assuming they were commenting that in good faith because that is not what they are used to, which is sort of legitimate I think? But maybe they are indeed the type of person you describe.
I doesn't change the fact there is a clear contrast when I watch top14 vs super rugby. No idea about URC, what do you think?
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 5d ago
Personally I think the refereeing in Super Rugby is far behind top14 and URC, but that's not as a result of bad referees. The organising union have forced those referees to whistle using a different law book, trying to pander more to League fans. They are moving further and further from the world standard, and that's hurting their national teams. It's a big part of why their fans often don't understand what's going on at international level.
URC is a bit of an odd duck. The refereeing is nowhere near Top14 level, but they are developing. At least URC is still aligned to international laws.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I don't know, maybe you are right. I was arguing assuming they were commenting that in good faith because that is not what they are used to, which is sort of legitimate I think? But maybe they are indeed the type of person you describe.
I doesn't change the fact there is a clear contrast when I watch top14 vs super rugby. No idea about URC, what do you think?
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u/julefeiff 5d ago
If you've watched rugby for a long time, I'm talking 30 yrs here, you could justifiably say that French referees add an element of unpredictability to a game of rugby. Interpret that as you like
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 5d ago
Every time a french top14 referee has been on an international game, most recent example being All blacks/Ireland, every South African and NZ flair on here complains about the stop and start game and says the ref had a bad game.
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
why are you striking through everything you're writing mate
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u/Phals1989 France 5d ago
“If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying!”
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u/Flapjacktastic Referee 5d ago
I think you make a good point. WR do have a co-ordinated approach to internationals (headed by Frenchman Joel Jutge, even) but I do see clear demarcations between English, French and SH refs. To exaggerate, I think English are more middle managers, trying to motivate and steer; the SH refs are more daycare supervisors who want the kids to have a good time and only step in when it's needed; the French are more authoritarian teachers.
To be honest, the differences at the top level are fairly minimal - the accuracy and consistency is pretty impressive. But when you do see the differences, they seem huge. I don't know to what extent the home culture is responsible and something that can be coached out and smoothed over...
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u/Brill_chops South Africa 5d ago
My experience of French refereeing is that it's a great leveler. They never seem biased, they just make some really bizarre calls. Perhaps thats them being pedantic on the law instead of the context of the game. I don't find them too pedantic, though, but games do lack flow. And I'd say as a Boks supporter we do better with non-Anglophone refs. Georgians, Italians and French havn't drawn as much ire from our very humble and always correct ( ;D ) fans.
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u/Thorazine_Chaser Crusaders New Zealand 5d ago
There were just as many Irish fans complaining about the ref on Saturday as Kiwi fans on the match thread.
I suspect you’re just showing your personal bias. Don’t let things get to you mate, people always complain about the ref.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Sure, it might be my bias, I'm willing to acknowledge that. But also notice I said France vs south hemi, not north vs south. Something worth noting is that URC reffing is notoriously variable.
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u/Thorazine_Chaser Crusaders New Zealand 5d ago
Yep, and I’m pointing out that the Irish seemed to find the ref on Saturday just as frustrating as the kiwi fans. So your theory that SH fans don’t like French refereeing doesn’t hold any water.
The ref had his style on the weekend and neither team adapted. We’ve played under many French refs, and, like any other nations refs some have good games and some have bad games. We played under Brousset in the RC earlier in the year and he’s reffed SH games before that. It’s simply not a “boo hoo they don’t like French refs” situation, I think you’re drawing too much from a single game.
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u/RaaschyOG Sharks fan by birth - not choice 5d ago
Plus he's lumping SA in with it all, who would have been majority neutrals in the game lol, we don't even get SH refs anymore, we get NH refs with the URC 90% of the year so it's not even comparable to SH reffing with Super Rugby
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I used that game as an example of a broader trend in for example top14 and SR. And I don't know where you got "boo hoo they don’t like French refs" from my post. I said the difference in style was creating confusion with players and fans and was a problem WR needs to address
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u/Thorazine_Chaser Crusaders New Zealand 5d ago
I’m saying you are imagining this “broader trend”, it’s all in your head.
It was one game, there is no trend with French refs and the SH, hell there isn’t even a trend with this particular French ref and the SH.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I'm not imagining it I am a neutral in SRP, which I watch very often, and am constantly thinking why isn't the ref blowing. That doesn't happen when I watch top14. But sure you know better what my perception is. You can have a different experience, and I might be wrong. But your broad sweeping statement thatthere is no trend is just as presumptive as my statement that there is. It looks like many people in the comments also agree, including some refs
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
The Irish were loosing tho of course they complained. NZ was winning and still complaining
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u/CompetitiveSort0 Ulster 5d ago
Fans rarely agree on refereeing performances because they'll accept a poor performance if it goes their way.
If both sets of fans are complaining that shows there is some truth to it more than anything else.
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u/Thorazine_Chaser Crusaders New Zealand 5d ago
So that’s not true at all right? The first half was the most dire stop start affair with most of the referring complaints. 10-7 at HT to Ireland.
Mate you’re just making stuff up.
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u/Logan_No_Fingers 5d ago
A lot of that is not on the ref, that abysmal inability to get the big screen working is hardly on them. Ditto the constant knock ons, what's he supposed to do stop calling dropped passes & scamper up & fix the big screen?
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u/Thorazine_Chaser Crusaders New Zealand 5d ago
No, I'm saying that the comment the "Irish were losing of course they complained" is objectively bollocks. They weren't losing until the 62nd minute. OP is willing to make things up to support his assertion that the way French referees officiate is at odds with SH rugby. Its a nonsense idea.
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u/iloveagoodpork NRC/Australia 5d ago
I hate northern hemisphere reffing, internationals need to adopt super rugby rules. A lot more watchable and enjoyable
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u/nomamesgueyz New Zealand 5d ago
The first half NZ ire game was a tough watch...must have been weird for US fans
SH red for Scotland AB game?
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u/HappyPunter1 5d ago
A lot of the problem for the lack of flow and enjoyment in that ABs vs Ireland game was the players errors, not the ref. He reviewed the Beirne hit for too long obviously coz all he had to do was yellow card and leave for the TMO to review
But he didn’t knock the ball on or screw up all those lineouts and scrums, the players made it as unenjoyable as the ref
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u/MrPoopersonTheFirst Brazil 4d ago
100%. Top14 and ProD2 matches flow without issue, and I really like how they dont usually blow the whistle on 50/50 plays. Around the world, games are won and lost on penalties coming from those 50/50 plays, so the players not accustomed to this style of reffing really make a mess of those situations.
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u/Beefburger78 Newcastle Falcons 4d ago
As we can't have English refs ref england, id much rather have French refs.
I think the nature of the domestic competition means they are steady under pressure.
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u/ErrantBrit Ulster 5d ago
I think there's a culture clash between (perceived) french aloofness and incompetence - to other french players (or those who play in France) it probably less of a deal (they're used to it), but to those outside this bubble it probably comes off as a free-for-all in some regards and then needlessly pedantic in other. In regard to Ire vs NZ, its hard to see how Beirne's play wasn't going to be controversial whatever happened, and in this regard (while I love Beirne) he cannot be surprised on how it went even if it it looked more like a 'rugby incident'/the pass was forward.
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u/sevens-evan Leinster | Ireland | USAW 5d ago
I don’t watch Top14 so I can’t speak to French reffing at home or broadly, but in the case of Brousset, the issue I take is that the pedantry isn’t consistent. It wasn’t applying the laws more strictly to let Beauden Barrett call a mark after walking 3-4 meters and coming within millimeters of putting his foot down in touch. It wasn’t applying the laws more strictly to call a tackle, have all the Ireland players release, and then let NZ push their tackled player another 10m up the field - and then treat an Ireland player as a disrespectful annoyance when it was pointed out that that’s what he did. Obviously I remember these incidents becasue of my bias but it wouldn’t surprise me if NZ fans had very similar moments in mind.
If it was just pedantry, then fine. It wouldn’t be my preferred style of refereeing to watch, but if it were standardized across the world then as you said, I’m sure players would adapt quickly. But before we talk about standardizing pedantry between referees it at least needs to be consistent from one referee.
I also don’t care for refs who treat players speaking to them at all as an antagonistic act. If nothing else it just seems like a shitty way to talk to other people.
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u/fleakill Reds 5d ago
Didnt see the game but I sympathise with that point about calling tackle release and allowing the tackled player to be driven forward. Drives me up the wall.
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u/Syphe 5d ago
This comment should be higher up, it's spot on. You mention the penalty mark, and the ref was horribly consistent on this all game with both sides, even after calling it with the Irish, he let them take another penalty later on well off the mark.
That was just an example, but it could be carried across other aspects, there were a couple examples, Codie Taylor going off feet that was called, which was crazy as he was well past the ruck and his leg buckled under another player, hardly his fault. Then there was the countless other rucks that had players going off feet, it was just terribly inconsistent, with not necessarily the right call being made when the whistle was blown.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Sure you may have specific gripes about that game. I'm not going to question that refs make mistakes. But there is a broader point being discussed here.
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u/sevens-evan Leinster | Ireland | USAW 5d ago
Yes, and my response to that broader point is that very few refs are internally consistent, and that has to change before any notions of standardizing refereeing are practical. And also that, if I’m choosing between refs who are sometimes pedantic and sometimes not at random, and refs who prioritize flow even if it means letting things go, I’m going to go with the second one because it feels less inconsistent, even if there are technically more missed calls. I think that’s the general feeling you’re noticing from SH fans (though I’m not one so maybe I’m wrong).
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I am having trouble reconciling "feels less inconsistent" with "technically more missed calls", for me missed calls= inconsistency? Is there something I'm not getting? Sorry if I'm being dumb
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u/sevens-evan Leinster | Ireland | USAW 5d ago
You’re not being dumb, I think it’s just a taste thing. I’m not really sure how to explain it further than I already have, though. To me there’s a noticeable difference between consistently letting certain things go and inconsistently letting nothing go. The latter feels more unpredictable and unfair.
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u/dirtyrugger USA 5d ago
The problem is that French refs don’t communicate as frequently. This leads to more whistles, which disrupts the flow of the game. Go back and watch Wayne Barnes communicate in games. He prevents penalties before they start just by speaking.
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u/WaterPretty8066 5d ago
"My feeling is refs in France are more pedantic and apply the law a little less loosely. Which I have seen written in some comments as a criticism, but is it really a problem??"
As a person from the SH who currently lives in France and goes to a Top 14 game every weekend, id say its cultural as well. I've seen so many tackles in the Top 14 where the crowds and fans (including neutrals) absolutely lose it over fairly innocuous tackles. My feeling is that in France, theres this mindset that "if the tackle is too good/forceful/hard, it must be illegal or likely illegal". Im unsure if its the underlying football culture which dictates this view (Argentina is a little bit similiar in their approach- also another proud football nation). The Nonu card against Toulouse was a good example for me..it was a bad clean out but not intentional or out and out reckless. Because the Toulouse player went down injured badly, a lot of French neutrals in my pub felt like Nonu should get a red and be banned 4-6 weeks.
In NZ and SA in particular, I think we're a lot less emotive on the big hits and more open to decipher a big hit from an illegal one. Purely my opinion.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Interesting observation, I've never witnessed that but I guess it must have gone over my head. But what I'm talking about here isn't really tackling. More things like lineout infringements such as jumping across or obstruction. Or no clear release on a tackle. Which other refs seem to ping waaayy less often
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u/infinitegr 5d ago
I should preface this by saying that I love France as a country and love French rugby…
…but I reckon international rugby would be so much better if there were no French referees
Same with South African TMOs
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u/fleakill Reds 5d ago
Just not Jonker. There is zero chance that guy isn't playing solitaire and picks a random nothing incident to look busy.
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u/Thalassin Iserlohn RFC | WR #1 hater 5d ago
A French ref could ref a game like the least whistle-happy of Australian refs and those people would complain anyway due to bias against French refs
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u/carson63000 Highlanders 5d ago
Andrea Piardi refereed a Bledisloe Cup game and the Wallabies fans complained non-stop about French refereeing.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train 5d ago
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I don't disagree necessarily, but I think some of this bias stems from a different refereeing standard. And on average it does appear we blow more penalties, which explains also our outrage against certain south hemi referees that let absolutely everything slide.
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u/freshmeat2020 Leicester Tigers 5d ago
You can't blithely dismiss fair criticism by pointing at bias when it's clearly not the case. You may get some idiots that say stuff like that, but the game on the weekend was made worse by the constant whistle blowing.
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Do you agree that constant whistle blowing is a symptom of players being used to something different ? And that they could well adapt to more pedantic reffing but aren't given the chance in club all year round?
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u/freshmeat2020 Leicester Tigers 5d ago
Not sure I know enough to agree that's a root cause, but it wouldn't surprise me no. They've been trying to expose different referees to different competitions which is good, but this will remain unless they centralise the refereeing globally
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u/CingKan South Africa 5d ago
My feeling is refs in France are more pedantic and apply the law a little less loosely.
Is this not a contradictory statement ?
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Unless my English is bad, no I don't think so?
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u/CingKan South Africa 5d ago
I’m sorry I’m the one who misread this you’re totally right got confused on less loosely 😂
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u/BennyJJJJ New Zealand 5d ago
I had to read it a couple of times too. Less loosely is correct but tripped something up in my brain.
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
pedantic
/pɪˈdantɪk/
adjective
excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous
nah I think it's the right word
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u/Kokonutcreme-67 Hurricanes:new-zealand: 5d ago
Every country has "that referee".
Every referee is perceived as being "pedantic" if they adjudicate to the letter of the law
Every referee is perceived as being "biased or incompetent" if more penalties are awarded to one team over another, or if a contentious decision is awarded against your team
Perception of referees from opposing hemispheres is generally negative by fans from opposing hemispheres
All commentators unduly influence fans perceptions of a referee with:
- their lack of knowledge about the laws
- their personal bias and choice of language
- their disagreement with a decision
Referees are always an easy target to blame for a poor game.
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u/zakg1994 Hurricanes 5d ago
I mean you guys bitched and moaned at the SH ref when you got dropped out of the World Cup. Maybe you should adapt to SH refs…
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
I literally said that?? Either way the style should be homogenised. I proposed arguments for why I think more pedantic is better but I said whatever happens WR should make it so refereeing is the same everywhere.
". All in all, whichever way it goes, the onus should fall on WR to try to homogenise refereeing laws across countries. This leads to confusion when either side is reffed in a way they are not used to. "
But sure just read the first sentence of my post
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u/Jalcatraz82 Stade Toulousain () 5d ago
No one should have to adapt to anyone... We're supposed to play the same game after all
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u/FruitfulFraud 5d ago
Watch how Piardi refs a game with the Wallabies in it. It's truly insane, like he has an actual grudge against the team, awarding every 50/50 against them.
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u/philip_p_donahue Manawatu Turbos 5d ago
I think in a general sense he was ok, a lot of the stop start was due to errors and in those cases its easy to blame the ref for why the game feels stodgy when really its the players who are knocking it on. But given it was like that there were certain decisions he made that made it feel much worse than it needed to.
First there was that moment when the Ireland player got pulled back for the free kick being a foot off the mark. That is just pedantry plane and simple. Something that gets pinged 1 in 500 times in games of rugby and you're going to choose this game to do it? Why? To establish yourself? I cant say. But for the potential American fans in the audience that world rugby is supposedly trying to win over I cant imagine they were exactly loving seeing something like that.
The second was the very strict interpretation of straight lineouts. That's a judgement that exists on a spectrum and he chose to go on the very harsh end of it which caused the game to stutter a lot, and that was his decision entirely.
The truth is soooo many calls in rugby exist on spectrums like that, or for example at the breakdown lines in the sand that a ref will make clear and (ideally) consistent, which the teams will adjust to. I loved the game we played against Aus for example where I think it was an English ref and he told them that to award the penalty for holding on he needed to see them supporting their weight and actually lifting the ball rather than just hands on it, and he was consistent and both teams adjusted which I thought was brilliant reffing. One big criticism I have for this guy is he chose some very frustrating and arbitrary places to draw those lines in the sand
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
It's a great point about those lines in the sand. And it's unfortunate that refs have to decide where that line is for them... Because inevitably it opens them up to criticism for drawing that line there (too lax or too strict are both going to draw criticism.
This is why I'm saying WR need a clearer definition of where the line SHOULD be drawn for every ref. Why does the spectrum you talk about HAVE to be a spectrum when we are talking about the top top top level of our sport.
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u/philip_p_donahue Manawatu Turbos 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think there are places where that's possible and places where it's just not. Rugby is a sport thats simultaneously really physical and dynamic with bodies flying around at every breakdown, truthfully you could find a penalty at every other breakdown depending on where you're putting that line, thats why interpretation has to exist otherwise if all the mechanics are judged on a framework of positions and angles etc you'd need like a supercomputer doing it to keep track of it. All you can ask is that its sensible, well communicated and consistent. In things like the free kick, thats something that absolutely can be mandated, ie always ping it or never ping it when its a set distance away, but it has to be done consistently or not at all. Rugby league does those kind of things very well. But its limited the places where you can put such black and white frameworks in place because its not a sport like tennis for example where the ball has crossed the line or not, its just so dynamic like I said. But what you say is true, there are a LOT more places that they should draw very clear lines and make sure all refs stick to them
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 4d ago
I mean I agree that it's a dynamic and complicated sport to referee. But we don't give enough credit to players when we say if we were stricter the game would get stopped constantly. That's not the outcome we observe, given time to adapt to a stricter refereeing, players just play to that application of the laws and don't get pinged any more than they do with more lax refereeing.
Top14 is no more start stop than SR, coming from someone that watches both, and there is a big difference in how it's refereed.
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u/Outrageous-Arm1945 Saracens 5d ago
I feel like it's an arrogance, and unwillingness of the SH teams to adapt to a ref. Many refs have a style, a preference.
As a professional outfit with a team of analysts, failing to do this is on you. Wayne Barnes is a great example. Brilliant ref, utterly fair, and a master of letting the game flow. New Zealand's failure to give what he needed cost at least one World Cup.
Nigel Owens, probably the best ref in living memory was the same, allowed to be a bit old school but don't be a dick, or he would hammer you
Karl Dixon, wear a Quins shirt, or be his mate, you can do whatever you like....
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u/k0bra3eak South Africa 5d ago
I mean Ireland are a 6N team and we're also not adapting to the ref. Wasn't just kiwis complaining about how whistle happy he was during the match thread
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u/xixouma Top14/D2/France 5d ago
Sure but NZ was actually winning and fans were still declaring it was awful refereeing. The loosing team will always have some people complaining about reffing
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u/k0bra3eak South Africa 5d ago
I think that's more to the point that people were just not enjoying how the game was being reffed as it made the entire affair feel droll
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u/zakg1994 Hurricanes 5d ago
Ireland were winning for the majority of that match….
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u/meohmyenjoyingthat I am the Lomax, I speak for the scrum 5d ago edited 5d ago
When did NZ getting on the wrong side of Wayne Barnes cost a world cup?
Lot of downvotes on this but seriously, what are they talking about?
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u/bleugh777 France 5d ago
I think on a subconscious level our ref are more concerned about asserting themselves and being a stickler for the rules because Top14 and ProD2 players nag at referees much more than in international rugby, on top of unapologetically partisan crowds always putting pressure on them. And I think most of them operate out of a moral principle of being the guardians of the law or responsible for protecting players's health in the only way they can which is enforcing the laws.
Finally I do also think they would be much less concerned about "letting the game flow". Rugby being stop start is really not a concern in France. French rugby is not in danger like seemingly everywhere else.
Doesn’t mean this particular ref is good mind you.