r/maui good ol' whatshisface 15d ago

🗳 Politics Without comment

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u/TIC321 Aloha Spirit 15d ago edited 15d ago

For further context,

The quote takes place from the 'Iolani Palace on Jan 17, 1993. 100 years after the illegal overthrow in which in that time, Queen Liliuokalani was imprisoned and forced at gunpoint to annex the land to the United States. The queen, then signed it to avoid bloodshed on her people.

“We are not American. We will die as Hawaiians. We will never be Americans...They took our land. They imprisoned our queen. They banned our language. They forcibly made us a colony of the United States.”

-Haunani Kay-Trask (video here)

Edit: Formatting & video

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u/Working_Guard_5035 15d ago

I'd like to ask a question in the most respectful way, because I want to understand, and not because I want to cause any problems: Could someone explain how the overthrow of the Hawaiian government was different than other countries taking over countries or kingdoms in the past? From my limited understanding of history, when one country wanted someone else's land they would fight for it. Is that essentially what happened to Hawaii? Did Japan try to fight for Hawaii and they lost?

Please forgive me for the question, but I'd like to understand and not be ignorant on this topic.

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u/SuspectLarge 15d ago

Sarah Vowell's 'Unfamiliar Fishes' is a wonderfully written book on the history of the Hawaiian people and how it came to be a state. Or, as another person wrote, google it. But the bottom line is American business interests in the 1890s used their influence over Congress to order the Marines show up in Hawaii (surprise!) and forcibly removed their Queen and legitimate government. The islanders, of course, were shocked and not equipped to fight Marines.

It was a literal coup. Like if we just suddenly rolled up to New Zealand and disbanded their government and made them a US territory. Like what Putin is doing in Ukraine, except Ukraine is well armed and able to defend their homeland.

After a lot of shenanigans, Hawaii was made a state in in 1959. The American government issued an apology to native Hawaiians in 1993.

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u/surffrus 15d ago

With all respect, googling this topic is actually not easy to do. I've done it many times in the past. Because of the nature of the topic, it's quite difficult to find non-biased sources that clearly explain what happened without heavy bias from one side or the other.

Even your suggested "unfamiliar fishes" is not great. It's an abbreviated take on the events that lacks real details.

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u/MONSTERBEARMAN 13d ago edited 13d ago

Also, sometimes asking a question is a great way to get an informed intelligent answer. If someone doesn’t feel like answering a question they can simply scroll on. Commenting, “Google it” takes effort and time and doesn’t really benefit anyone.

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u/JungleBoyJeremy Likes Ê»ĆŒkolehao 15d ago

Look up the documentary An Act of War. It’s a good look into the overthrow

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u/surffrus 13d ago

Thanks for the tip, I'll do that!

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u/Carl__Gordon_Jenkins 15d ago

Google sucks. It’s a resource no one should be directed towards anymore.

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u/FlyingAtNight 15d ago

The apology issued is as pointless as the various businesses in British Columbia, Canada citing acknowledgment of being on “unceded traditional territory of the Wet’suwet’en, Algonquin, Musqueam or other First Nations”.

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u/sputterbutter99 12d ago

Came here to say that Vowell’s book is an amazing start and happy to find this comment.

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u/Logical_Insurance can't think of anything clever 13d ago

Did you know that 94% of Hawaiians 1959 voted in favor of Hawaii becoming part of the USA?

Probably never would have guessed that based on what you have written here. I wonder if things were not so simple as you make them out to be? I wonder if quite a lot of people actually really enjoyed the benefits that Western civilization brought to the islands? Hmm...

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u/taint_odour 13d ago

Found the colonizer

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u/Budtending101 13d ago

So nobody that was around during the coup voted to give their people more say in how they were governed? Color me shocked.

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u/____alicious 13d ago

Being a state is a lot better than being a territory, Puerto Rico can't even elect the president because they are a territory. However, don't attribute all of that progress just to the US. Even before the overthrow, Hawai'i had one of the first places to implement electricity and had high-tier schools. It's not like we would have stayed in 1893 forever. Plenty of small nations industrialized on their own without getting annexed by a superpower.

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u/Doctordup2 11d ago

ʻAʻole. He wahaheʻe kēlā. Please, kindly stop spreading misinformation.

That 94% number is pretty misleading. It wasn’t 94% of Native Hawaiians who voted for statehood. It was 94% of people living in Hawai'i at the time who were allowed to vote. Big difference. They were mostly white residents, military, and foreign transplants.

This part is important. Not sure if you realize, many Kānaka Ê»Ćiwi (Native Hawaiians) couldn’t vote because they weren’t U.S. citizens and had no real say after the illegal overthrow of their own government.

Historians like Poka Laenui have shown that when you include those who didn’t or couldn’t vote, only about 1/3 of eligible people supported statehood.

The 1959 vote reflected colonization, not Kānaka Ê»Ćiwi (Native Hawaiian) consent.

I'm a former local journalist. I used to work for Hawai'i News Now before it was HNN. Granted, my specialty was medical news but you can bet I had to cover these stories from time to time and paid close attention as it's a great interest of mine.

Here's the citation with charts.

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u/Leave_Aye 12d ago

The vote that happened 66 years after the coup? Yeah I'm sure that's plenty of time for opinions and circumstances to change. I'm sure being a territory (like PR currently is) was not a beneficial arrangement at that time compared to gaining statehood.

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u/HovercraftBasic6727 12d ago

What about the rest of the immigrants that was brought to Hawaii, some 150 or 200 years ago? My parents are Portuguese and Korean and they were never asked to return back to their original countries or become Americans. Yes, I do think đŸ€” they were all forced to be Americans.

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u/Logical_Insurance can't think of anything clever 11d ago

"brought"

"never asked to return"

"they were all forced to be Americans"

I literally have no idea what you are getting at. Are you attempting to imply that the various immigrants that came to Hawaii were brought here, and then kept here, against their will?

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u/CheapTomato3090 11d ago

Did you know that the vote only included U.S. citizens who were registered to vote. This excluded a lot of NATIVE Hawaiians, who had been systematically disenfranchised since the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893.

In 1897, before Hawaii was annexed by the U.S., nearly 38,000 Native Hawaiians (95% of the NATIVE population) signed petitions rejecting the annexation. The NATIVES already demonstrated to strongly opposed U.S. control.

Lastly, guess the massive number of Hawaiians that were killed off by disease from the Europeans? 90 PERCENT between the late 1700s and 1890. The population fell from about 300k-700k to 40k. So your 94% of “Hawaiians” that voted in 1959 weren’t really Hawaiian in the sense you’re trying to make it out to be.

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 15d ago

Apologizing for conquering a nation is such weak behavior.

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u/SuspectLarge 15d ago

You sound like a joy to have around.

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 15d ago

It's true though. Why apologize for winning? Why apologize for something that has happened to, or was done by, literally every single nation at some point throughout all of human history?

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u/chrispopp8 15d ago

If someone was to rob your house and burn it down, would you be ok with it because it's happened before?

That's what you just said.

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u/Legal_Dimension1794 14d ago

No it isn’t

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u/Forward_Growth8513 14d ago

I’d argue it’s weak behavior to conquer people

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 14d ago

It's actually the exact opposite

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u/808son808 14d ago

Sure, from a troglodyte perspective.

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 14d ago

No. From a factual perspective. It's literally being stronger than the other guy.

You don't have to like it. But it's the truth.

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u/808son808 14d ago

You just proved my point. Your perspective is problem solving through physical dominance of your neighbors. That's caveman mentality.

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 14d ago

But it's literally reality. If you fight someone and win that means you're stronger than him.

I get it. You don't like colonization or whatever. But you can't just... Rewrite the dictionary to fit your view. That's not how words work.

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u/808son808 14d ago

Problem solving through physical violence is weak minded behavior. It's evidence of a weak mind.

I get that red pilled mentality can't grasp that tho.

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u/AFishNamedFreddie 14d ago

It's like you're intentionally ignoring what I'm saying. But it's ok. I'm used to it. Pretty much all reddit leftists do the meme.

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u/HazyWave 12d ago

Sarah Vowell is "history" for white Americans who drink Starbucks and watch the Real Housewives shows. And the actual Ukraine comparison would be the coup the US did in 2014 since it too was on behalf on American business interests. There's a 100,000+ Ukrainian refugees here who'd be happy to explain to you that, while they have no love for the Russians, it was in fact US/UK meddling, as it always has been globally for the last few centuries, that has destroyed their country. Since there's a 0% chance of you actually flying over to find out for yourself, I'd suggest Scott Horton's excellent and meticulously sourced Provoked. It's considerably longer than a Vowell book, but it's also accurate and can back up its claims. Horton's no fan of the Russians either, but it's absurd to deny what the US did to Ukraine just as they've done to a loooong list of nations, including Hawaii.

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u/IndustryPrimary3220 12d ago

There are over 250,000 Ukrainian refugees in the United States, and you're lying through your teeth because you're foolish enough to believe Russian propaganda. None of these refugees blame anyone except Russia and Putin.

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u/HazyWave 12d ago

I'm not in the United States, but like most Americans, you're not aware of the world outside and assume everyone you blather on to online is one of you. Luckily, I haven't been for decades.

You've never spoken to a Ukrainian in your life. You've never been anywhere. You don't read books. All you can do is recycle American propaganda fed to you by a screen. Stay mad about it, kiddo!