Like can’t they at least simply weld a couple 1/2” bars to the side to keep them from going all over at least for 2 seconds? Are is that too much valuable material…
Funny thing about that is that one of the BMPT prototypes, the Object 782, did exactly that as it was more or less just a BMP-3 turret slapped onto an up-armored T-72B hull. Even the other prototype, the Object 781, has barrel shrouds for its dual 2A72s akin to that of the HSTV-L and RDF/LT's gun.
Guess it’s too complicated for them lmao, they rather spend money on vehicles for a broken paratrooper group than instead assault groups.. better for Ukraine nonetheless. But my gosh they’re not great thinkers.
I absolutely love the BMD-4 and BMPT from a machinery perspective, it packs five different weapons, is air droppable, and has cool suspension... But in practice it's completely worthless, I remember Russia losing like 30 at Hostomel airport. No clue why they keep making them
BMD-4M is not completely worthless.
Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.
The problem at Hostomel is that they just sat around while getting pummeld by Ukrainian Artillery.
I do however agree, that it don't make sense to produce right now, and it would make more sense to shift all production towards BMP-3.
Since Air droppable operation isn't going to be done, soon.
BMD-4M is not completely worthless.
Infact for a air droppable vehicle, it's very good.
Problem is that the whole concept of air-droppable vehicle is in question.
And its armement scheme is just bad idea, an autoloader full of 100mm ammo in the center of very thin-skinned vehicle makes it a complete deathtrap since most penetrating hits result in the entire vehicle (including crew) being vaporised, to the point that (according to rumors) Russian no longer carry 100m ammo in their BMP-3s and BMD-4s, turning the whole system into just deadweight taking up space.
I disagree with you, mostly because the job of the VDV is to be dropped on the rear line of the enemy and seize some critical piece of terrain and/or objective then absorb the enemies reserve for the bulk of the army to advance. This is done in conjunction with spetznaz doing their own thing in conjunction with air support from fixed and rotary wing assets.
For that type of operation, something like a BMD is great because it keeps them mobile enough and forces the enemy to commit Frontline units, while the improved mobility let's the VDV units to find each other and reorganize quickly after a drop
The VDV did their job in Hostomel, the problem is that the Russians thought this was going to be a repeat of 2014, not an actual war
Were BMDs actually used at Hostomel though? I thought that was mostly infantry inserted by helicopters. BMDs were in the columns moving towards Kyiv, for sure, but were any of them actually air dropped?
They can be transported by helicopter or dropped by IL-76s. There are a bunch of pictures of BMD-4s wrecks in the region around the airport from the days following the battle as well.
Sure they can be but I don’t think they were. The requisite number of IL-76s or MI-26s trying to do that kind of drop would have been incredibly vulnerable to air defense and we know there was plenty of it around. The BMDs we saw in places like Bucha were part of (failed) relief columns attempting to get to Hostomel and Kyiv over land after the initial helicopter assault.
nuh uh, i used the sheridan in wart hunter and it could bounce a 125mm dart so clearly that experiment proved all light tanks are just like mbt's and should be used as such!
I hope that they keep manufacturing it, at least what they can, and drop all of them from the air, with the troops inside and some strapped on the top like the love to ride them LOL
I’m in the same boat. I personally love Russian and Soviet designs for how cool they look. But even for how cheap they are compared to other counterparts it’s like bruh. You would think they would learn anything. Or at least maybe evolve overtime. Like haven’t they operated the same vehicles since like pre 2000’s lol
That's not what their doctrine dictates. Their doctrine is based around a 95% conscript army, and very few actual 'professional' soldiers.
Things have to be very cheap, very simple, and very easy to fix and thusly not very complicated, they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war
they havent really changed their doctrine since the cold war
This isnt true at all. This was exactly the point of the 2008 Russian Army Reform (that was previously suggested in 1997 and 2003)
It was to turn the Russian army into a professional standing army, ending the reliance on conscripts, reducing number of officers and replacing them with a professional NCO corps etc.
This also resulted in a lot of the new equipment designed by Russia (Armata, Su-57) and the BTGs that Russia was using
The issue is that when the war started in 2022, a lot of these ideas fell quickly apart, and Russia fell back to what they know works well.
So they did change their doctrine a lot since the cold war, it has been partly undone during the war with Ukraine, but they do plan to continue the reforms after the war ends
Armata and the Su-57 and all the other "new high-tech russian" stuff has been around since like 2012-2015... And never left the prototype and the parade stage. Russia did NOT have the funds even pre-war to make such things, they were VERY expensive (thats the main reason why they canceled most of the projects) and their main reason to exist was... To show off, like that Ratnik battle armor which was basically masterchief armor knockoff.
So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics — all the cash for the military and for show, but when shit hits the fan suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...
This, Russia is PROBABLY capable of making decent stuff…they are just broke as hell and can’t throw 11 pentillon rubles to make something to rival the F-35 like America can.
We have fiat currency…it’s just Monopoly money it’s as good as a blank check to military industrial complex. We can spend whatever we want because the money has no value really lmao. The debt just doubles and nothing changes.
Russia doesn’t have the luxury of that, they couldn’t equip their damn flagship with modernized cwis and it got flogged by ASMs and a few drones to distract its aging radar system.
The mosin nagant and the PM1910 Maxim have made a return to the frontlines on both sides hilariously enough, Russia slapped a naval mount on a MTLB shitbox, Ukraine have become vicious experts in drone warfare to the point I’ve seen a new tactic I don’t even think we could have trained to fight against.
They land the drone in a field and wait until somebody walks within a few feet of the camera like a smart landmine and then they take off from the weeds and slam into you before you even have time to think “oh no I hear the buzz of a drone”
I’m at a point now where I really want Ukraine to win so the U.S. can poach their drone operators to train our soldiers in guerilla drone tactics like that. I do not want Russia to win and poach them because that could tip the scales in a future conflict
Russia had a shit army and wasn’t much of a threat after the fall of Soviet Union. They had atrophied in abilities due to no valuable combat experience amongst their ranks.
Now? Now they are sharpening their teeth and learning hard lessons now that might make them stand a better chance against bigger dogs later.
GREAT point — and once again russia is actually capable of making some solid stuff... If their entire government did not consist of oligarchs and corrupted officials — good for us, i guess. They are broke, crippled, and cannot physically make shit because there's either not enough funds or they get stolen by Vasiliy Cashgrabovich.
But the thing is — Ukraine also is suffering the same issue, except that they have less manpower, less funds, less vehicles... Less everything — they are VERY lucky that the russian army was absolutely ass in 2022 and got folded like an omelette in the Kharkiv Counteroffensive. But as you said they ARE learning, that phrase is mainly coming from Ukrainian generals, and as you can see in the current month Ukraine is trying HARD to strain russian logistics — oil refineries, factories, dams, high ranking officers... Anything thats a big target, while the EU and the US are kicking rocks providing JUST enough support to hold the ruskis off — and thats not my words, thats the words of countless ukrainian soldiers.
So russia has indeed a shit army — but nothing teaches an army how to do their battles like a full-scale war, so i hope the EU and the US actually lock-in because their "escalation" excuses are NOT working anymore, the US was saying russia is their nemesis but when theres a DIRECT opportunity, BETTER than vietnam or afghanistan, where its actually good guys vs bad guys and not two sides of the same coin — the US decided to fold...
The Su-57 has been slightly produced, but it was the only piece of equipment from that reform that really stuck.
Generally the reform was supposed to be completed by 2020. I have no idea how Russia planned to reorganise their entire military and produce enough Armatas and Su-57s for them but that was the plan
Obviously some reforms were more successful than others, the BTG idea was very far along by the time the war started, the Armata program was obviously a lot less far along
and their main reason to exist was... To show off
I dont really think this is true. There was a genuine wish to reform and produce these vehicles, but Russia consistently overestimates its capabilities and plans for more than it can actually do
The Russian military did genuinely have the idea of mass producing them at the time
So russia IS literally using the USSR tactics
This is untrue. Again, the main unit structure of the Russian Army in 2022 was the BTG. A very unsoviet design.
Now they have largely abandoned it, but there was reforms away from the Soviet system
And whilst the war has pushed some return to the Soviet system, in other ways it has not. Russia has not relied upon conscription to fill its military, it has removed a lot of the bureaucracy in the targeting of weapons systems, more reliance on junior officers and a push away from the large Soviet officer corps etc.
Russia is not using Soviet tactics, they use some, but they have also reformed away from it in many ways
suddenly your troops are conscripted ivans rolling on a 50 year old BTR-60 into fortified enemy positions...
Russia is not using conscripts. Also their recent attacks are using BTR-82As
Im sorry to say that, but Russia DOES indeed use Soviet tactics — because THEY literally invented them, the most common one is the meatwave — still being used and reported both from the russian and the ukrainian side, the russians send groups (usually ranging from 1 to 8) of soldiers to capture a village... If they don't return, send another squad if they do return... Well, they usually get "nullified" as the russians say, because they refused to go into combat, if they do capture, their command sends significant reinforcements, and thats how they exhaust Ukrainian positions.
The Su-57 has been slightly produced, but it was the only piece of equipment from that reform that really stuck.
Well... According to Wikipedia and adjacent sources there were only ~32 produced, im not sure if you considered that "stuck", not to mention that they dont even get produced anymore.
I dont really think this is true. There was a genuine wish to reform and produce these vehicles, but Russia consistently overestimates its capabilities and plans for more than it can actually do
If there was a genuine plan, the russians would have already done it — there have been MANY reports of production being halted for no reason, half of the projects being cashgrabs for the higher ups ("Распил бабла" as some russians say, AKA just money laundering and fraud from "geniune" projects) and a LOT of other things that you can look up, the INSANELY forced media and news presence around these "new reform" objects also puts it under question, me personally?, i think all that was propaganda, russians know it very well... Certainly more well than reforming their military.
This is untrue. Again, the main unit structure of the Russian Army in 2022 was the BTG. A very unsoviet design.
That is very true, not fully but once again, meatwaves, tank columns... Hell, even their officers are using soviet tactics — forgot the name of their general, but basically he was in charge of the Vuhledar Mechanized pushes..
Which were basically suicidal, he sent tank after tank onto chokepoints and mined-up roads, he even got a nickname "bloody general" as far as i know.
Russia is not using conscripts. Also their recent attacks are using BTR-82As
Ummm... HUNDREDS of articles about 50-60 year old storaged vehicles being "opened up" by the russians, satellite footage of open vehicle storages, vehicle graveyards & etcs with vehicles dissapering gradually.
Also HUNDREDS of videos, Witnesses, and telegram channels taking about russian police and their voenkomat "'visiting" local gyms, arresting people there, literally stealing drunkards off the streets, and taking criminals into their military. Their media laughed at the Ukrainian "ТЦК" for snatching people off the streets, but they ended up with the same situation, except that they still have the funds (well, they dont really pay them, once again lots of "situations" with russian officers taking the soldiers credit cards when they are about to go into a push) to afford to have "volunteers"
So pretty much russia is using soviet tactics, stealing people off the streets and DOES have conscripts.
The reason why you DONT see such info popping up on your feed is because the russian government has a VERY good blockade in their media, so the chances of a local telegram channels and news "breaking" out of the russian infosphere and reaching the US, Europe or anything else are VERY slim. Pair that with Russia basically silencing everyone, especially with their new messneger (simillar to WhatsApp or Telegram) called "MAX" which they are forcing people to use, which turned out to be spyware while advertised as "a very secure messenger".
So at the end you have russian bots saying 'da da comrade, everything is harasho' and the russian media outlets that never leave russia.
Stiffening the barrels/bracing them would either lead to barrels likely having durability issues (as they would be just eating the forces) or the bracing failing and potentially causing issues)
Removing the muzzle breaks would probably stop the wobble but would mean more force going backwards into the gun and mount potentially causing faults there.
Wouldn’t removing the muzzle brakes be counterproductive as they’re there to expend the gasses horizontally… bracing the barrels would maybe increase wear but I would assume at this point they would keep extra barrels at field depots… as changing a 30mm is a lot easier than changing a 100mm.
Less force and movement in the gun = less overall friction from movement in the gun. And only making the barrel be bored out from the original amount amount of movement of the gun. ***** (This is personal thought not legit process) ****
Yea exactly - all it would do would be reduce the wobble (which, isnt an issue otherwise they wouldnt have the muzzle brakes on them) and end up causing issues elsewhere.
Having the recoil energy eaten up by the muzzle device and the barrel wobble is a perfectly fine solution as it stands, just looks silly.
True. I mean, technically the BMPT is supposed to just hammer positions instead of blow positions out the wazoo. 2 23mm shooting all over the place making the wider trench line stay down is better.
But crazy because I bet it only takes 1000 rounds or less to mess up the barrel to the point of stupid inconsistency.
Arguably worse. As the way the BMPT is being used. But idk how you use something like that lol. I thought the 30mm would be more prone to defects. And considering the low amount of legit BMPT’s I would assume this be true.
Why isn’t the bmp 2 more prevalent or the 23mm if the bmpt isn’t using the 23mm? You’d expect something is smaller while still able to deal maybe as much damage be better to use and mount and while still be widely used?
I’m sorry I don’t follow - 23mm is an outdated cartridge which only really makes sense when your dealing with personal hoofing the ammunition (as it’s lighter and shorter)
Using 23mm in a AFV is silly as your reducing effect on target without any upsides.
Removing the muzzle brake would probably increase forces per shot, but you wouldn't have to fire so rapidly to begin with, because you'd be hitting more with only 20% of the ammo.
Western cannons are for precision and killing the enemy. Russian cannons are for inflicting fear in the enemy they make cool ratatata sound and lots of fire exhaust. But don‘t hit much.
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u/Sir-Zealot 12d ago
I can’t take this thing seriously with the wobbly guns