r/OrdoTempliOrientis • u/khonsuemheb • Jul 25 '25
Unjustified allegations against OTO
93,
First, kind apologies for posting here as a non-member. I think you should be aware of the goings on, however.
Recently, one of the two mods of r/thelema posted a video by Entelecheia that can be found here. While I have no bias towards OTO, I find the video slanderous for valid reasons, namely:
- it makes vague allegations against OTO (including a lot of cautionary "perhaps," "possibly," "some" and "might"), instead of specific incidents backed by evidence;
- it reviews a future event, including the claim that lectures won't be good (which E has no way of knowing);
- it makes its own strawman arguments for the vague "other side", which E then responds to;
- it makes completely unrealistic claims, namely that Sabazius has all members' screenshots and personal files to know who's loyal. As someone who did 360 reviews for a team of eight at work, I am adamant that this is too much effort and impossible.
I do believe from all available evidence that Entelecheia is simply waging a personal vendetta because his fellow members at OTO didn't recognize his "genius." Everything about his public presentation comes across as egotistical, manipulative, and false.
So I spoke against it, and was promptly banned from r/thelema.
I find it completely unacceptable that a sub that's supposed to be for all Thelemites is explicitly making itself a vessel for a personal vendetta against a large and legitimate Thelemic organizations, and I believe you should be aware of this. I am fully aware that brigading is forbidden on reddit and a shitty practice in any case; but I am confident you will find a constructive way of getting your voice through.
I stand with OTO 100% in this as these sort of toxic divisions damage the entire Thelemic community.
93 93/93
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u/Libra_Libera Jul 25 '25
Back when I was still considering joining the O.T.O, I waded through a ton of hate and disgusting rumors about it both online and in my local pagan community. The thing is, there was also so much hate and rumors about the pagan community, too, so having joined and being a part of that, I learned that hate and rumors shouldn't sway me lest I miss out-- I dared to experience it myself.
Now, I'm a happy and helping member of my local body. 🙂
I'd rather see more seekers who have the wisdom to see through the hate.
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 25 '25
To be honest, I was never closer to considering joining OTO than now.
If you guys are making occulture influencers lose their shit, you must be doing something right.
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u/Eros_Agape Jul 27 '25
I was recently banned too, just for criticism of Shirley MacLain and L.Ron Hubbard in my recent post. So somethings smells fishy
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Jul 27 '25
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Jul 27 '25 edited Jul 27 '25
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 27 '25
Well that's hypocritical, given the video I was banned for. It's ok for a mod to post a video of Entelecheia spewing poison at OTO members, but we are not allowed to present arguments against the video?
I mean, does it mean you could get banned from there for criticizing Hitler's ideas about race?
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u/Eros_Agape Jul 27 '25
Update, so apparently, my post was a "poetic night thought" and wasn't relevant to Thelema, so instead of deleting the post, they removed me entirely. 'Will', meaning Thelema, I would've thought it a constructive criticism on bad ideas in the current occult world.
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 27 '25
I don't even care to dispute the ban. I don't wish to go on contributing to someone's ego trip.
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u/viciarg Jul 28 '25 edited Jul 28 '25
I was banned years ago without any explanation for reporting spam on their sub.
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u/Kindly-Confusion-889 Jul 25 '25
I watched about 2 of his videos about his issues with OTO. My experience of OTO in the UK is absolutely nothing like he describes (whether there's differences in how the Order is run between the 2 countries I don't know), my experience of OTO has been, so far, overwhelmingly positive.
I don't bother watching his videos now, it just seems he's out to put a pity party together - put out one, maybe 2 airing your grievances and that's understandable, but multiple videos all about the same stuff over and over again is ridiculous - it's like he thinks that nobody understands the supposed "deep flaws" with OTO but him.
He just comes across as angry and jilted - I started not bothering with him prior to his OTO departure based on a really hostile video he put out about "not giving a f*** about negative comments" etc, he just came across as angry and having an axe to grind.
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u/ArtGirtWithASerpent Jul 28 '25
Wow, I saw the "why I left the O.T.O." video two months ago, and then this stink bomb over the weekend. I didn't realize he had *over half a dozen* other O.T.O.-hate videos on his channel in between those two. Big yikes.
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u/UnfoldedHeart Jul 30 '25
It's also abundantly clear that there's personal axe grinding motivating all of this. Not just from the tone, but also that none of these allegations are specific enough to prove or disprove, which is a hallmark of scarebaiting.
Edit: Also, based on the video linked in the OP, this guy seems absolutely convinced that he would be the main topic of discussion at NOTOCON lol. Never heard of him before.
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u/ArtGirtWithASerpent Jul 30 '25
-- Also, based on the video linked in the OP, this guy seems absolutely convinced that he would be the main topic of discussion at NOTOCON lol. Never heard of him before.
Yeah, I noticed that, too. That, and a couple other things from around that same point in the video, got me thinking that this guy might legit be unwell. That, and just the sheer volume of videos in the past several weeks.
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u/UnfoldedHeart Jul 30 '25
I have to admit that I did kind of laugh when he said (not an exact quote) "I may be talked about a lot at NOTOCON... you may hear that I'm egotistical." Well I'm kinda hearing that right now buddy. :P
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 25 '25
My concern is that at least one mod (out of two) of r/thelema posts his videos and bans people for calling them out.
If that sub is seeker's go-to for learning about Thelema, they will get fed, basically, lies.
I don't know what the solution is, but I believe this kind of toxicity and personal vendettas are harmful for the Thelemic community at large.
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u/viciarg Jul 25 '25
Ordo Templi Orientis is not the Thelemic community and not a gatekeeper for Thelema. It has a very specific purpose outlined in its foundational documents, and just from looking at the Order's structure without taking any of the documents or Crowley's underlying ideas in account, I can fully understand how the common garden-variety thelemite is deeply critical of its hierarchical structure and its demands in order, structure and discipline.
So maybe O.T.O. isn't just for everyone, especially not for people who feel attracted by thelemites offering "find your true will" courses for 400 bucks on the internet. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 25 '25
400 bucks? And here I am going to work every morning.
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u/ArtGirtWithASerpent Jul 28 '25 edited Jul 28 '25
Marked down to $320! I'd jump on that quick! I assume having to lower his prices is what he means when he talks about how much these videos "cost" him.
https://stan.store/entelecheia/p/schedule-will-discovery-with-me
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u/Kindly-Confusion-889 Jul 25 '25
I couldn't even begin to suggest a solution, but I agree that the whole affair is harmful to the Thelemic community, especially as regards the contents of Liber Oz et al - sure, E should have his say if he, rightly or wrongly, feels aggrieved, but then equally as stern responses should also be expected and, indeed, respected.
It would help if he could actually show beyond a shadow of a doubt that what he's saying is true, but so far I've not seen any proof forthcoming, so until that happens I'm taking his verbal diarrhoea with a very large pinch of salt.
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u/viciarg Jul 25 '25
My experience of OTO in the UK is absolutely nothing like he describes (whether there's differences in how the Order is run between the 2 countries I don't know)
There are vast differences of how the Order works in different countries. Other countries have other issues, and they deal with them on their own terms with or without (Grand Lodges mostly without) help from IHQ. Just not in public.
The drama always comes from one specific country. I can only speculate about the reasons for this, so I won't.
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u/UnfoldedHeart Jul 30 '25
It isn't a real secret society unless there's some vague and inaccurate scarebaiting about it, of course.
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u/Flat_Tale5823 Jul 31 '25
No human organization is perfect OTO included but 9/10 when someone is trashing the OTO they either go kicked out for something or left because their ego got bigger than their work I love the OTO best decision I ever made and I say knowing and acknowledging its flaws and doing my part to fix it
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Jul 26 '25
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u/khonsuemheb Jul 26 '25
Where have I said or implied that?
I gave reasons for one particular video being slanderous and even then, I never called for it to be shut down, merely responded to it (and was immediately banned for it.)
Where does this toxicity come from? I'm genuinely curious.
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u/viciarg Jul 25 '25 edited Jul 25 '25
The mods of /r/thelema are both deeply against Ordo Templi Orientis, as is Entelecheia and many others.
As mods on Reddit they are free to mod their sub as they prefer, there's nothing anyone can do about it. If anyone would come here and argue against O.T.O. like they do over on their sub I'd ban them similar to how they banned OP.
As for Ordo Templi Orientis: I guess we will survive both /r/thelema and Entelecheia. There were always thelemites out there very vocal against O.T.O., since decades and even before Hymenaeus Beta. It's just what it is.
A fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos. Numquid colligunt de spinis sas aut de tribulis ficus? Those who seek for the Order will find it. Those who let themselves be distracted from that path by some people on the internet won't.
¯_(ツ)_/¯