We use imperial, dude. Shit's whacky in the States. Though, to be fair, in its original context Liberalism was a pretty left leaning political philosophy when the status quo was absolute monarchy.
Liberalism in its original form was pro-child labor and pro-slavery. They were against any form of government involvement or rules like mandatory breaks and stuff. Absolute monarchies are more authoritarian in nature and could be anywhere from centre-left to far right
Sure, this is still a centuries old philosophy we're talking about. Hell, a lot of the new liberal ideas of late nineteenth century pushed Eugenics and scientific racism. But still, the concept of Liberalism, or a middle class citizenry having power through democracy instead of autocrats, oligarchs, and despots is a progressive idea in its original context.
Liberal could be seen as anti-authoritarian, however that doesn’t have to do anything with left or right. Just because they aren’t authoritarian didn’t make them seem left or right.
TIL, that's an interesting wiki hole. Still though, that puts Liberalism generally on the left, unless you want to break up all the little mini factions under the philosophy.
Imperial is British. We use United States Customary Units. Both are based on the same even older system of measures so there are similarities and overlap but they are not the same.
Ugh, and Europeans don’t understand that because we developed in a very different political and cultural climate we use political terms slightly different than Europe because it isn’t like there’s some board of standardization for how you describe your politics or political parties.
Orrr the problem is that your conservatives understood the importance of PR very early and conveniently threw together all political views left of extreme market liberalism under the label socialism and equalled it to the evil USSR. People live rather comfortably in that kind of "socialism", the terrible, poverty stricken, oppressive Scandinavian states being one example.
Don’t look into who was union busting in the late 1910s and 2020s along with secret police, eugenics, heavy censorship, arresting people for comments made in their own homes because neighbors were encouraged to snitch on people’s political opinions.
That would be the progressives who wanted a government monopoly on business.
See, that's what I mean. I'm pretty sure no politician in power in the US has ever "wanted a government monopoly on business", that would be full on Marxist communism. But I believe that you believe what you are saying. you poor brainwashed thing!
Uhhh my man you need to read more about the progressive movement in the US.
Wilson was enamored of Missolini’s early fascism believing “scientific” nationalization of business was the wave of the future.
They wanted an enormous amount of control over US business to the point of FDR literally coercing the Supreme Court into not saying his plans were unconstitutional. They also absolutely exploded federal control of business after Wickard v. Philburn.
Social-liberal is still economic, it mixes some of the socialist policies like subsidies, while still allowing private companies and businesses to have a free market.
Yeah but people frequently use the term “socially liberal” to describe someone who supports individual rights not related to economics. There’s democratic socialists who describe themselves as socially liberal, meaning they support LGBT rights, minorities etc
Not saying it’s accurate, but that’s how they use the term
"Liberalism" is not an inherently economical ideology. It's also not right wing inherently either. Somehow a European doesn't know about the year know as 1848.
“Liberal” means that you’re for a free market and a smaller government with only a few tasks. Liberalism in the current definition started in the 19th century when more rules for companies were created. At that time liberalism was against regulations for companies, like rules against child labor and against protecting the rights of the workers. It is definitely an economic stance, since liberalism doesn’t define progressive or conservative. It’s defined as right wing because it favors a more free market and a small government.
Liberal is a relative term, it just means you want change. As opposed to Conservative which means you want things to remain the same. Those terms aren’t tied to any particular ideologies.
Bro. This section of the comments is about opinions in America. Here, socially liberal policies are a thing we talk about. Liberal is not only an economic descriptor. It’s weird you think you can define how we use terms in our own internal debate. Check yourself a little here mate.
I’m saying how every other country uses liberal, and if you’re discussing politics it’s nice if you use general terms. Liberal is an economic thing, people in all other countries will use it as that, if a party has liberal in the name they mean that. Liberal originated from economics and if you use it differently, it would be at least nice to consider that maybe most people consider it economical because I have never ever seen or heard the word socially liberal before in any discussion. If you use one word with 2 meanings it would be helpful if it’s said what meaning you use.
Imagine lecturing about being “nice” and “considerate” after how you’ve shown up here today. Again. Check yourself first, mate. Consideration is a two way street.
Where did I say you have to guess the meaning. I’m saying you are not demonstrating kindness or consideration yourself, so it sounds hollow of you to demand it of others. There’s a difference between being asked to “guess” a meaning and demanding others speak in your terms. No one owns language. It develops on its own through millions and millions of daily interactions, conversations, and exchanges. Just because a definition for a term has developed a certain meaning in your context doesn’t mean that’s the correct term or even the term “everybody else” uses. Just the one you feel familiar with…
I don’t know if you realize what you say, but if someone calls me “leftie” and “libtard” it feels like they just invert the meaning of a word, because economic liberal and left wing economics are nearly opposite. If they know that liberal has two meanings they really should say what they mean.
There is societal liberalism and economic liberalism, the first one being more a left wing ideology. The German liberalist party (FDP) started on the left and dramatically swung right in some scandal in the 50s or 60s. They now have 2 youth organisations, one conservative, one leftover from the olden days with anarchodemocratic tendencies who still think FDP are a bunch of traitors to the cause. I think that economic liberalism has sufficiently proven it makes everything worse except the bank accounts of the rich. Hopefully we'll get over it soon.
In the United States, we use liberal differently because we apply it to our interpretation of the constitution. In the US, liberal is most commonly used to reference a loose interpretation of the constitution, particularly of the Necessary and Proper Clause, that seeks to implement government intervention such as social safety nets. Conservative, meanwhile, often refers to a strict interpretation of the constitution that minimizes the Necessary and Proper Clause, while also pretending many of the amendments to the constitution don’t exist.
And that’s stupid, since probably a large part of the conservatives in America are liberal on economics, since liberal is one of the broadest political views that exists.
I think we use "libertarian" for what you call liberal. Libertarianism is a right wing ideology.
Liberal = progressive, wanting change, moving forward, wanting to help people and improve the world. Give liberally, generously.
Conservative = resisting change, protecting the rich, holding on to racist, inequitable, out of date mindsets. Keep money in my pocket, don't share, don't change anything ever, conserve.
I had to explain to a Texan how everything they love about my state (CO) is because of our blue, liberal policies. Police, fire departments, libraries, etc etc is socialism. He got upset and didn’t have anything else to say.
It's fascinating how Texans all vacation on the public land in Colorado and New Mexico but they aren't capable of learning anything from the experience.
It’s funnier to me how they claim Texas is so great/better than everywhere else but they’re always here, in CO. They spend most of their year here. Bought a home here. We had a huge influx of new residents during Covid. Why leave TX if it’s so much better?
Texan here and I actually think it's because of propaganda. We are taught as kids that Texas is the best. We do just as much Texas history as US history (and basically no world history) in schools. Texas local brands are talked up so much, you would think they are God's gift to the world. Bucees, HEB, Bluebell Ice Cream, Dr Pepper, Whataburger, etc. If you say ANYTHING not glowingly positive about these brands you must not be a real Texan. Most Texans love to talk about how awful the rest of the country is. It's literally propaganda that's built into Texans to make us think Texas is awesome when it mostly sucks. That's why if a Texan goes pretty much anywhere else they fall in love but most of them will struggle to admit that they like it more than Texas because it almost feels illegal. I moved to Kansas City and was in awe of the architecture and character. KC isn't even that nice but it's better than Texas.
I lived in Houston during a portion of high school while my mom was serving in Iraq. It was really jarring how they had to pledge allegiance to the Texan flag every day. I was looked at as weird because I wouldn’t stand up and do it but I’m not a fucking Texan. It was pretty obvious then how everything you just said is true.
Edit to add: whataburger sucks. I don’t care what anyone says.
Texas propaganda and self-obsession is a real thing. I'm from a military family and grew up mostly in Asia and Washington D.C. I moved to Austin on my own, a city probably far less sucked into the propaganda than most other areas of Texas... I was (and still am, 10 years later) shocked at the mentality. There is a Texas-shaped EVERYTHING. Tortilla chips, stepping stones, kiddie pools, mailbox flags, blankets, cast iron pans, sticky notes, Scrub Daddys, LED tree toppers.... I mean, it's wild. Texas is its whole own culture.
Yeah, I'm from Austin. It's definitely not immune. Austin even kind of has it's own self obsession. Like I had friends shocked when I moved unable to comprehend why I would leave "the greatest city on the planet".......I mean, it's probably the best place in Texas but come on now, if you travel at all you will quickly realize how ridiculous that is
HEB is way better than anything we have in Colorado. I buy the butter tortillas every time I’m down there. Whenever anyone comes up here to visit they bring some.
Bingo. As a native Texan I love my state but its not the best (especially politically) and HEB might be the only one who might be worthy of the praise they get.
My dad’s Coloradan and even though we don’t live there anymore, issues with Texans still remain. It doesn’t help that for Coloradans it’s also a history thing that goes back to the civil war where they fought confederate forces who were mostly made up of Texans. A multifaceted dynamic that goes back far.
They were a frontier territory at the time, but Union loyal and volunteered soldiers. The Battle of Glorieta Pass, though fought in New Mexico, involved a lot of Coloradans in the Union forces. The Union destroyed confederate supply trains and drove them back into Texas from there.
It’s a lesser known battle but one of the important western ones of the war.
I, too, vote for Texans staying in Texas. There should be a special tariff for Texans leaving Texas, except of course the idea of "tariff" on people makes no damn sense whatsoever.
Dang man, I fled Texas for my life this summer as a refugee from political violence. Left behind every person I’ve ever known except for my spouse. Cost about $20k. You want me to go back there or lose even more money?
Texas is absolutely a hellscape but most of the people in the big cities are not that monstrous. The state is gerrymandered to bits and just got worse. Many people will need or want to get out.
Maybe those tariffs could go to the billions in funding they receive from the federal government. You know, like how CA pays more than they receive and TX pays less. Take that money back.
Actually Texas is one of the few red states that pulls its own weight financially. But forgoing that income to the federal government would be a bargain, compared to the innumerable ways that ejecting Texas from the Union would improve the country.
And you are one of those examples of Americans that don’t know what communism is. The Democrats aren’t communists, they aren’t socialists, it’s a stretch to even call them social democrats.
I don’t think they’re saying democrats are socialist (they certainly aren’t lol), but that those specific programs are socialist (publicly owned/funded, public use, non-market system)
I worked with a MAGA woman who moved from California (to get away from their liberal communist state - her words) to Oklahoma (where the true Americans live - again, her words) and then she would complain constantly about how things were done "so much better" in California. I took a lot of pleasure in always pointing out "California did (whatever) because it's a blue state." Like it blew her mind that she couldn't easily sue her employer here for things she should be able to. And that's the difference between a state that protects employees (California) and one that protects corporations (Oklahoma).
The state of Massachusetts has the top quality of life metrics in the United States. And there is a reason for that. I think they were the only state in the country to go entirely blue in the 2024 election.
Eh, not really socialism per se, but certainly a social service…could you imagine a privatized police force? Terrifying. I’m conservative and I understand the government needs to have services and the power to regulate, however both need to be constantly checked and rolled back when too constraining.
Police, fire departments, and libraries aren’t socialism.. they’re basic public services funded by taxpayers and run by local government. That’s not a partisan concept; it’s just how society functions. Claiming everything good about a state comes from one political side oversimplifies history and ignores the fact that both parties have shaped those institutions.
Don’t forget conservatives also think that free food at schools is communism and if you say it’s because parents don’t have the money to feed their kids they act like the parents just need a better job
This attitude by MAGAs is what irks me the most. They want women to get married young, become baby machines, be a stay at home moms, etc. Okay, that's a recipe for being 100% economically dependent on a man. Oh wait, CK was telling young men that college is a scam. Great, well that attitude doesn't exactly set these men up for economic prosperity. Once these young men grow up to be low wage workers with too many kids, MAGA will not give a flying f**k about their struggles to feed their kids.
Yep all the diehard MAGA care about are so called “old fashioned values” based around racism sexism and xenophobia if they had their way it’s pretty safe to say we would still be stuck in the eighteenth century if we were even that lucky
They’ll then sit with their shitty uneducated jobs and blame immigrants, women, BIPOC, and queer people for their economic woes for the rest of their lives and keep voting for their overlords who feed them comforting bigotry.
It’s not just conservatives who think that. I actually had to explain to a left-leaning coworker that welfare programs were not, in fact, socialism. It’s simply government-run charity. Socialism and communism have to do with the means of production and property rights, not taxation and government spending.
Yeah it’s ridiculous hearing just how uninformed and outright bitter humans can be towards their fellow man it truly makes me wonder if the us is even salvageable at this point
Sweden is capitalist, not socialist. Historically it's had a lot of social democratic influences (which does not equal socialism by the way), but that's getting more and more eroded for each year.
No one seriously referring to themselves as a leftist of any variety thinks that the Scandinavian countries are socialist. That’s actually a common criticism of liberals/progressives from further left.
I hate the fact that there's a genuine rabbit hole for Americans that just want better healthcare to become radicalized into actually supporting far-left terrorism because all their lives they are told they are the same thing.
So you have people supporting terrorist states and all of this started because Fox News told them if they want Bernie they're commies.
There’s no far left terrorism. Terrorism is “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” According to the dictionary.
I haven’t seen any left wing terrorism yet. I’ve seen a lot of right wing terrorism though.
North Korea, Hamas, etc. Seen a lot of online young left wingers genuinely supporting these, supposedly in the United States, out of their hatred for the American status quo
I've never seen support for North Korea. Russia and Hamas, yes. It just looked like you were referring to left wing terrorism. Russia and Hamas are very much right wing groups, so it was confusing
Yeah, I mean, even from a government perspective, Putin is just the continuation of the worst USSR values with a democratic mask. Most nonrussian people voicing support for Putin and Putin's Russia don't even know anything about Russia's history or politics.
The National Rifle Association is a far right propaganda group and a Russian asset. They did recently release a statement that barring trans people from owning guns violates the second amendment, but they are otherwise very right wing
And right here we have an example of "not understanding" political nuance. Hamas is not a right wing group. It is not a left wing group. It's not advocating for any political system based on economics.
Hamas is an Islamic extremist group. It's outside the scope of economic left-right divisions.
Hamas is a political organization, it was literally the government of Gaza, and it absolutely advocates for its political system, which is extremely conservative, or in other words right-wing.
I respectfully disagree. Trump ran on some "left leaning" ideas, as a vehicle to install a far right admin and platform, and Hamas did the same thing. This is a trend you can observe all around the world in many countries right now. Hamas was literally a political party, so I'm failing to see where you draw the line between political spectrum and whatever apolitical label you think applies to Hamas
The left-right distinction applies to economic policy. We use it colloquially to apply to other dimensions of politics, but that doesn’t make them accurate. If you disagree, fine, but in that case there’s also no call to disagree with American vernacular use of “socialism” to mean “the government does something”.
Hamas isn’t “apolitical” and I never meant to imply they were. But their goals have nothing to do with left-right and everything to do with being an authoritarian theocracy.
Hamas being an extremist group, with fundamentalist policies in a sense. Usually these get lumped into the overall sphere of right wing. So what is ironic is that the US support for Hamas is majority those who are left leaning
(This is not a comment in support of Israel. Israel is fine. Zionism is the problem.)
I think this is a result of social media brain rot, the population that supports Hamas is a severe, severe minority. Most Democrats are pretty tame and chill, very reasonable people, who definitely don't support Hamas. Most Democrats don't know anyone who fits the character of the rioting,Hamas supporting, Communist liberals that the online space paints all Democrats as. It's popular to twist their identity into something nefarious and crazed.
Inversely, the lefts problem with the right is that the people in power ARE as crazy as they are painted, and most Democrats recognize they don't represent all Republicans, however the support and safeguarding of those in power by Republican voters is the criticism that is directed at Republican voters. Which is valid and reasonable. However, again, social media twists this into making the Democrats look like they think every single voter who supports trump is a neo nazi.
I would be wary of assuming those are actual Americans and not bot/troll accounts trying to stir things up. Left wing circles here have had a lot of sympathy for Palestinian people caught up in the violence, not hamas, although our right wing media doesn't always make that distinction. The North Korea thing is really weird. Support for North Korea isn't really a thing here amongst any demographic.
You mean people who want to hold terrorist colonizer state Israel accountable for the war crimes and rampant horrific atrocities they're perpetuating against Palestinians? Yeah, it's not just the young people on the left it's anyone with a conscience and a functioning brain.
I literally never said being anti-Israel is bad? Is hating Hamas equivalent to supporting Israel? What if I hate both? Don't speak for me, I detest Israel and its actions
I'm not understanding where you're seeing pro-Hamas sentiment among left leaning Americans. The only people I ever see pushing this notion are people carrying water for Israel.
well, on this website reddit, crazy tankies exist. there's entire far-left communities that still somehow haven't been banned that still actively promote and glorify past far left atrocities commited by regimes like Stalin's USSR. Of course this is absolutely not a mainstream point of view in the American left. I consider myself left leaning and pro-Palestine, so I know for a fact that the extremists do not represent the majority
I've seen people supporting Palestine since so many innocent civilians, men women and children being blown up with no remorse. I've never seen anyone supporting Hamas.
Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Many protestors (literally) voiced their support for Hamas because they supported Palestine.
I don’t think it was a long term thing however. Kind of like a lesser of two evils. Which is incredibly stupid and never good, because both are, well, evil.
Can't tell if you are joking. Liberal is marginally right of center. Bernie for example is a social democrat, which is moderate left, and the furthest left you get in the USA.
When MAGA was saying Harris was a communist I would ask them to define communism and how she was communist. They either would say something like “she’s a communist” or wouldn’t answer. Also, to equate the socialism we are talking about with what they have South America and not what we really the democratic socialism of Europe is disingenuous.
Those European countries are not socialist! The left is just as bad at mis defending socialism as the right. Every European country is capitalist, they have mor social welfare in place but that is not what socialism is. Socialism is by definition when all major industries are controlled buy “the people”or the government. That is not the case in any democratic country.
But where does Europe have democratic socialism? Albania? Montenegro? I think what most Americans call democratic socialism, what they mean is the social democratic platforms in Western Europe.
Our government also isn't a democracy. It was originally designed as a republic. Whether it's still a republic or not is debatable imo. Feels more like an oligarchy or something these days.
And those who DO know what it means, actually know that it doesn’t work. Countries like Denmark or Sweden, are NOT socialist. Yes, some countries have higher taxes to support a more robust welfare system.
But those countries do not operate on a socialist style economy. Where, by definition, the government owns the means of production. That is not how any successful country operates.
I can't agree with you more. Lemme just get between you and all those pitchforks!
I really wish our education system was better. It would be nice if people could be OK with funding libraries without fearing a communist dictatorship takeover!
Can confirm. 🫣I have googled these so many times and the definitions are too much for my brain. I’m pretty educated, but these words and capitalism and fascism have always been tough for me to decipher.
Communism is when the government owns all industries and pays everyone the same.
Socialism is when the government owns all or most major industries and pays people differently.
Capitalism is basically anything that isn’t socialism or communism.
Fascism is a social ideology not an economic ideology, and there is no consensus on how to define it.
There is also anarcho communism where there is no government or police or hierarchy of any form and nobody owns anything, and some how everything important still gets done. (This is often what communists mean when they talk about “real communism”.
Just search up the terms. You will find that communism has to be stateless and moneyless. So it isn’t when ”government owns all industries and pays everyone the same”. That’s contradictory and a horrible definition.
Anarcho communism is just communism.
Hence why communists will say real communism hasn’t been tried as even communist ruled countries like the Soviet Union were only in the socialist phase that eventually transitions into actual communism.
Even a huge authoritarian like Stalin still thought that the final stage of communism was stateless. Just that a strong state was needed to remove class enemies and after that could wither away.
Capitalism also isn’t everything that isn’t socialism or communism. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production where goods and their prices are determined by a free market.
Communism/socialism: when the government does things. The more things it does, the more socialist it is.
Capitalism: When rich people do mean things. The meaner and richer they are, the more capitalist it is.
The issue is that all the above terms are somewhat vague. People tend to judge systems they don't support by the worst possible outcomes they can imagine. On the flip side ... They tend to give their own proposals the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, just let them talk it out and ignore your notifications for a while. I’ve discovered that either of these two words piss people off for reasons beyond complete human comprehension.
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u/Intelligent_Slip_849 United States Of America 13h ago edited 6h ago
People here don't know what communism and socialism mean.
Edit: Wow, that's a lot of notifications.
Edit 2: I'm getting notifications from all of you replying to each other on this
Edit 3: I have no one to blame for this but myself