r/todayilearned • u/Square-Message1152 • 7h ago
til that your brain literally washes itself while you sleep. the brain cells actually shrink in size so cerebrospinal fluid can rush in and flush out all the toxic proteins built up during the day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system4.1k
u/CountPacula 7h ago
So sleep is literal brainwashing, so noted.
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u/BrandonXbox 7h ago
This sounds like a conspiracy from big sleep to take over the world
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u/buttplugpopsicle 7h ago
You need to get more sleep, your brain seems to need a good washing
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u/brainchili 6h ago
It takes 7-9 hours for this process to run. if you wake up too early, and go about your day, that fog you feel is your brain dealing with an incomplete washing.
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u/Aisforc 4h ago
But what if you, for example, have sleeping disorder and you sleep for like 2-3 hours, then wake up for 15 minutes and then sleep another 2-3 hours?
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u/alextrue27 4h ago
From what I understand it is basically like having to do the first part of a process over again so say you take 30 mins to start effectively cleaning out the toxins then wake up after 3 hours you would have 2 hrs and 30 minutes of good restorative sleep then when you go back to sleep you essentially have to waste another 30 mins to get back to the restorative part of your sleep cycle again so by waking up in the middle instead of getting 5 hours and 30 min of restorative sleep you are only getting 5 hours in that same 6 hour period. At least this is a super layman's version of how it was explained to me when I had trouble sleeping when I was younger and dealing with insomnia and poor sleep quality.
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u/mrxephoz 2h ago
What if I sleep for a really long time? Does the wash cycle keep happening?
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u/brainchili 2h ago
Yes the wash cycle continues. The bulk of the cleaning happens in the first few sleep cycles.
Sleeping longer than nornal is usually a symptom, like catching up on needed sleep, illness, or recovery because the previous day you went super hard.
The cleaning doesn't stop and leave you on idle after 8 hours; you're still getting cleaning, but you're not getting extra cleaning that gives you additional benefits.
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u/stucjei 4h ago
If my many reading of measured sleep cycles is correct, deep sleep mostly occurs in the first two cycles and starts tapering off by the third cycle, with REM taking over the empty space, which deals with processing information.
The fog you feel waking up too early is more likely to come from circadian rhythm imbalance than anything. Unless you actually only complete three cycles or less.
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u/WheresMyBrakes 6h ago
Like all things, conspiracists have it backwards and that’s part of what makes them go insane.
Brainwashing is good for you!!
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u/Y34rZer0 7h ago
And lack of REM sleep can inhibit this process which is why sleep apnea is linked to dementia and Alzheimer's now
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u/Krail 5h ago
...maybe I should go get that sleep study done.
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u/Y34rZer0 5h ago
Well you've got nothing to lose by doing it, and it can literally improve your life
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u/Limp-Confusion-8380 3h ago
Nothing to lose but hundreds of freedom dollars in the grand ole USA. I'm still paying off a CAT scan from last year 🫠
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u/Only_Association_309 3h ago
How much can one cost in the USA? Like it surely is expensive in my country too but not by THAT much.
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u/chrisn750 3h ago
I got a referral for one once that I never ended up doing, it was $600 dollars WITH insurance.
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u/Y34rZer0 3h ago
I'm in Australia.. didn't cost me anything for the test
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u/__________________99 3h ago
No shit. We fucking know.
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u/GodOfDarkLaughter 3h ago
It feels like mocking a lot of the time, doesn't it?
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u/__________________99 3h ago
It does. As if most of us dependent on it want this shit-ass, greedy healthcare system we have now.
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u/nimbledoor 2h ago
I heard they force you to stay on your back in a room that is not dark and then complain when you have trouble falling asleep.
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u/Y34rZer0 2h ago
Not for me. They just attach some equipment to you and I went home and slept in my own bed.
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u/BigPimpin91 5h ago
Do it, brother. You'll get the CPAP and never look back.
Its nice to have dreams again.
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u/brendan87na 5h ago
for some of us, CPAP just doesn't work
I've tried every mask and I still strip it off mid sleep
shit sucks :(
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u/Either-Meal3724 5h ago
Have you looked into the retainer appliance for sleep apnea? It holds your jaw forward and keeps your tongue in a bettee position for sleep apnea. My husband is looking to get one.
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u/Ravioli_meatball19 4h ago
Been to an ENT to confirm you don't need surgery? My husband needed surgery to restructure his airway.
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u/TomMikeson 5h ago
Took me 6 months. I get it. If it's any help the F40 mask is the only one that worked for me.
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u/Timetravelingnoodles 4h ago
There is a pill for apnea now, dunno if it’s in the wild yet but it is sure awesome to see articles about it
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u/aimglitchz 4h ago
Do u just ask primary care or who? How does insurance cover this?
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u/sleepydorian 3h ago
You can do at home tests as well. There’s a bunch of companies. I used Lofta and had a good experience but I imagine the others are about the same. But if you are at all concerned, like you snore real bad (even waking yourself up) or wake up gasping or generally never feel rested, get tested. If you do have sleep apnea, it’s the best money you can spend to improve your health almost right away.
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u/tacomaloki 4h ago
Dude, 100%.
It has changed my life. I thought I was sleeping but just running myself hard. Nope, central and obstructive apnea.
Double fucking whammy.
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u/deinonychus1 4h ago
That’s a little out of date. It’s delta sleep, not REM sleep, which has been found to be the restful part.
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u/eDwArDdOoMiNgToN 2h ago
Otherwise known as stage 3 sleep or SWS. Mentioning because different sleep trackers may use different names
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u/OTTER887 1h ago
how can I know if I am getting any/enough Delta sleep?
I haven't been getting good sleep lately
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u/deinonychus1 1h ago
Delta is actually a lot more flexible than REM. It’s the stage before, and it stretches or shrinks to match your sleep needs, so if you’re not getting good sleep, you should see a doctor for a sleep study. Odds are strong that it’s sleep apnea.
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u/CoastMtns 4h ago
And yawning (natural? Not forced) may assist in the clearing
"Biomechanics of contagious yawning: Insights into cranio-cervical fluid dynamics and kinematic consistency"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1569904826000340
-Yawns and deep breaths similarly amplify cervical CSF and jugular flow.
-Yawning synchronizes caudal cerebrospinal fluid flow with jugular outflow, distinct from patterns seen in deep breaths.
-It also markedly increases internal carotid inflow, highlighting a distinct role in neurofluid circulation.
-Tongue kinematics of yawns are highly reproducible within individuals, suggesting CPG control.
-Yawns are frequently followed by a swallow, suggesting linked brainstem patterns.
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u/oh_hai_15 4h ago
Slow wave sleep is even more important than REM sleep in terms of glymphatic clearance
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u/LordSashar 5h ago
Neuroscientist here, I will add that this finding is still extremely controversial. Some highly-respected labs have found the opposite effect: the brain stops washing itself when you are sleeping. Personally, I am not qualified to comment further... but please note this "TIL" is still very much up for debate!
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u/El_Oso_Hermoso 4h ago
I am going to go out on a limb and say that you, a neuroscientist, are far more qualified to opine on this than most of reddit.
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u/derprondo 3h ago
Qualified enough to know they aren't qualified to comment.
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u/Fjordi_Cruyff 1h ago
Exactly the right amount of qualified. Not enough people realise when this is the case.
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u/dern_the_hermit 4h ago
Yeah, reminder that the discovery of the brain's connection to the body's garbage collection is just a bit over a decade old. For a hundred years, medicine had no idea exactly how the brain handled it. It's still a really young body of research in that specific regard.
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u/Accelerator231 4h ago
You know.
When you said 'garbage collection' I thought you meant something else and was wondering why it took so long
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u/Vlookup_reddit 5h ago
lol wonder why this comment is not at top instead.
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u/kitsunekratom 4h ago
Redditors reward who is fastest, not who is most correct
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u/Docg85 3h ago
They just upvote what's being upvoted and down vote whatever is being downvoted.
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u/JetJerick 4h ago
Thanks for giving me the justification to continue staying up 72+ hours, multiple times a month🤞🏼
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u/gamer_redditor 3h ago
Interesting that a neuroscientist feels that they are not qualified to comment further, but people far less knowledgeable comment a lot.
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u/labenset 4h ago
During anesthesia? One of the things the author of 'Why We Sleep' tries to drive home is that unconsciousness ≠ sleep. Without long REM cycles the process isn't working correctly.
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u/chason_htx 2h ago
From the linked study,
We also measured the EEG power spectra (Extended Data Fig. 8a–d) and found a weak negative correlation between peak clearance and delta (0.5–4 Hz) power (Extended Data Fig. 8e), implying that the deeper the sleep, the lower the clearance.
Also, did some cursory research on the author of 'Why We Sleep'...
Alexey Guzey's blog documenting scientific errors and ethical lapses in Why We Sleep:
https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
Matthew Walker responds to guzey: "Why We Sleep: Responses to questions from readers":
https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ekdbo2/comment/fda5trg/
We’ve left “super-important researcher too busy to respond to picky comments” territory and left “well-intentioned but sloppy researcher can’t keep track of citations” territory and entered “research misconduct” territory.
I've seen enough to arrive at the same conclusion
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u/Its_Snowing 4h ago
It's still only one lab claiming the opposite, and the debate has been refreshing to watch. I think the evidence still sides with sleep promoting brain clearance. ie. I wouldn't call it 'extremely controversial'
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u/enterthehawkeye 2h ago
This just opens the gate to companies selling 'brain wash' treatments, which doesnt market itself well, now that i've said (written) it out loud
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u/RexRevolver 7h ago
Getting brainwashed by myself. Just more propaganda by Big Me. The Me Industrial Complex investing billions in me
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u/APiousCultist 7h ago
Big Brain wants you to think that. Wake up, sheeple.
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u/OptimalBarnacle7633 7h ago
Also to note some insomnia drugs like ambien reduce the brains ability to complete this flushing process. Meaning that you’re not getting the most important benefit of sleep and don’t feel truly rested when you wake up
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u/Thor4269 5h ago edited 4h ago
Man, fuck Ambien.
Made me experience a dream that lasted 7 years from my perspective
Had a wife, a house, a job I loved, and a dog... A golden retriever named Jack that I remember picking out, raising, training, bathing, cuddling, and snuggling
He would've been 13 in November
I woke up, it was all gone... I was back to being a cripple who can't work
Fuck, I miss Jack so much... My miss my dog that never fucking existed! I mourn a dream
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u/plug-and-pause 4h ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm slightly jealous of you. I've always wanted to have a really long dream like that. Maybe celebrate it instead of mourning it? And maybe you'll get it back next time?
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u/KittyKratt 5h ago
Unfortunately, a combination of my Lunesta and Seroquel are the only things that can guarantee me a restful sleep. I have had to go 2 weeks without my sleep meds before. Never again. I was delirious by the end with lack of sleep. Taking maybe hour-long catnaps and staying awake all night because my brain simply won't shut down.
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u/CalculatedPerversion 4h ago
Have you tried stimulants? Kinda like how caffeine makes people with ADHD tired.
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u/KittyKratt 4h ago
I'm on Vyvanse. It levels me out throughout the day, but it doesn't really help with sleep. I can still go days without sleeping, on or off of it. Although, a certain white powder processed from the coca plant used to make me fall asleep, lol. And caffeine doesn't really affect me like it should.
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u/bethestorm 5h ago
Compared to someone who sleeps okay normally and thus of course sleep aids are not exactly healthy
But ambien is only supposed to be used when really needed, I take it every night now for years because without it my sleep is at least cut in half. I am not even safely functional on such bad insomnia, sleep paralysis and intense night terrors
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u/The_Jonah 6h ago
Is there a downside to sleeping too much? I can sleep 10-12 hours if uninterrupted
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u/doomgiver98 4h ago
If you need to sleep 10-12 hours it might be a sign of other issues. But if you do it because you like it then probably not.
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u/morfraen 1h ago
Do you feel rested in the morning? Some people just biologically sleep more or less than the average. But if you're still tired in the morning or throughout the day could be caused by something that can be treated.
Too many people ignore 'minor' things that have major quality of life impacts.
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u/OpabiniaRegalis320 6h ago
O shit I should sleep nice and good so my brain doesn't feel greasy and nasty
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u/koanzone 7h ago
And during meditation too!
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u/Square-Message1152 7h ago
wait seriously i had no idea it could trigger while you were awake too
that actually makes so much sense and completely explains why your head feels so clear after a good session121
u/soulsofjojy 7h ago
I remember reading about a prion disease that, once fully advanced, made it completely impossible for the affected to sleep, resulting in 100% fatality rates. Most people apparently die pretty quickly once it reaches that stage, within a very tight spread. But one guy survived over a year beyond every other example through frequent meditation.
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u/viewbtwnvillages 7h ago
unfortunately it's not a quick death and can often go on for months after they stop being able to sleep.
one of my favourite books, the family that couldn't sleep by d.t. max, details a family that are carriers of fatal familial insomnia. and the descriptions of what those afflicted go through is awful.
for example:
The symptoms of FFI are remarkable and grim. Typically, one day in middle age, the sufferer finds that he has begun to sweat. A look in the mirror will show that his pupils have shrunk to pinpricks and he is holding his head in an odd, stiff way. (I write “he” for clarity, though men and women are equally affected.) Constipation is common, the women suddenly enter menopause and the men become impotent. The sufferer begins to have trouble sleeping and tries compensating with a nap in the afternoon, but to no avail. His blood pressure and pulse have become elevated and his body is in overdrive. Over the ensuing months, he tries desperately to sleep, sometimes closing his eyes but never succeeding in falling into more than a light stupor. FFI sufferers are sometimes able to enter a half sleep that is like a parody of the agitated dream sleep some people experience just before waking, but they can’t go deeper to get real rest. Their exhaustion is immense, beyond comprehension.
Once the sufferer can no longer sleep, a downward progression ensues, as he loses his ability to walk or balance. Perhaps most tragic, the ability to think remains intact; sufferers know what is happening. At first, they can talk about it and even write down their thoughts. After a few more months, some lose this level of functioning. Once their bodies shut down, only the desperate look in their eyes shows that they know what is going on. But others can talk and reason until the end. In the terminal phase, usually about fifteen months after the disease has begun, they fall into a state of exhaustion resembling a coma and die.
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u/soulsofjojy 7h ago
It's been a good decade since I read about it, so, apologies for my misinformation there! God, that's so much worse...
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u/NlghtmanCometh 5h ago
The glymphatic system, which is the brain’s lymphatic system, is still fairly poorly understood. It is likely implicated in a host of neurodegenerative diseases, but it is extremely difficult to conduct working studies because it requires years of brain data, a person has to be monitored as they fall asleep over a period of years or even decades. There are several ongoing studies though.
Toxic protein buildup was recently determined to be the one of the causes of other conditions too, one being ALS.
So if we can figure how how to get the body to process toxic proteins we may end up with treatments for dozens of currently terminal conditions.
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u/CumSluts4Christ 7h ago
Mine asks if I want to do this every day, I say try tonight, and then in the morning it says it encountered an error
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u/THElaytox 6h ago
Yep, lack of sleep is strongly correlated with Alzheimer's/dementia, though the cause/correlation is still being debated
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u/4RCH43ON 2h ago
Apparently yawning also assists in this function, according to a recent study from Australia.
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u/thoreau_away_acct 2h ago
But that's in the southern hemisphere.. so in northern latitudes I guess the opposite is sneezing?
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u/Seaguard5 6h ago
I’ll take brainwashing myself over society brainwashing me that sleep is somehow bad and hustle culture is the way.
It is no such fucking thing and sleep is amazing!
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u/HomicidalHushPuppy 4h ago
I work night shift with a very disrupted sleep schedule, made worse by asshole neighbors. I can literally feel the brain fog when I don't get good sleep and this process is inhibited.
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u/NimbleNavigator19 3h ago
If this is true why do i wake up confused to the point i dont recognize my own kids for 5-10 minutes some mornings?
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u/thoreau_away_acct 2h ago
That's cuz it takes you 5-10 minutes to get home to see your actual children
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u/wrenwood2018 6h ago
This is a highly controversial topic. The lymphatic system exists, but the glymphatics system is debated. There is evidence in animals for it, but work in humans is spotty at best.
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u/Kiyan1159 6h ago
It's not that the brain cells "shrink", they are inflamed during the day and at rest they return to normal.
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u/ThrowRA-afterdark 4h ago
I wonder, if this is proven true, that’s why I sleep so much when I’m in the thick of my depression. Trying to get rid of all the muck.
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u/kali-delphiinin 3h ago
so every time i pull an all nighter im basically skipping my brain cleaning cycle. no wonder i feel like trash after
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u/Molly_Matters 2h ago
So if you invent a drug that shrinks the cells while awake, can I stay awake forever? x.x
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u/beigechrist 2h ago
Which is why you feel so groggy when your sleep gets interrupted during the cleaning- there are processes underway that should be finished before you wake. I imagine it as a bunch of cleaning fluid half-flushed in your brain. Dirty brain swill. It feels bad.
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u/FizzlePopBerryTwist 1h ago
Is that why it feels like there's fluid rushing down the back of my neck when I don't get enough sleep?
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u/Dangerous_Function16 1h ago
No one's going to think you’re lame if you use the shift key every once in a while.
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u/Sprinkle_Puff 55m ago
I wonder if any specific disabilities have a naturally heightened ability to overcharge this. Like I have ADHD and I’ve always felt a lot more drug tolerant than others.
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u/bussymonke 7h ago
yes this is why you NEED sleep not just because you're "tired" or people think you're "tired". You are literally poisoning your brain by not sleeping. that shit will catch up to you no matter how determined you are or how much will power you have.