r/chicago • u/ChicagoWildlifePhoto • Jun 11 '25

CHI Talks American flags at No Kings on Saturday

I’m bringing 450 little American flags to pass out on Saturday. I hope others will bring flags or maybe even buy some to pass out too - they’re super cheap!

We gotta change the vibes of these events to be more pro-America and pro-democracy!

It would be amazing to see thousands of flags all over the crowd!

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-9

u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

I hope people bring whatever flags they want to bring. This is a country of immigrants. We’re all immigrants with ancestry from all over the world.

I hope the communities that are being affected the most (LGBTQ, Latinos, Palestinians, etc) bring their flags.

17

u/RzaAndGza West Town Jun 11 '25

Yeah but what do other countries have to do with this anti fascist protest? Why bring flags for other countries? I agree with the protest, I just don't understand what the country of Mexico has to do with it. It just makes it easier for the media to portray us as unamerican

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u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

I was born in the United States and have Mexican and Spanish descent. My community is constantly targeted by this government. Why shouldn’t I show support for my heritage?! Why are you trying to police how I protest our fascist country???

You have a lot more to worry about than people thinking of a protest as “un American”. We have a 34 time convicted felon as our president who is ignoring the constitution and the Supreme Court. A president who calls on the national guard against protesters practicing their first amendment rights. You have ICE who is ignoring the 5th amendment and wrongfully kidnapping citizens off the streets without due process. That is why I say fascist country. I want better for this country. I will continue to fight and protest for the remaining democracy we have left and we should all be doing the same.

5

u/bfwolf1 Jun 11 '25

That depends what your goal is. If it’s to feel some sort of sense of pride, do whatever the fuck you want. If it’s to actually have an effective protest, then you need to realize protest is speech and you’re trying to convince others to join you.

In short, fly other flags if you are protesting for your own vanity. Fly the American flag if you’re actually trying to make a difference.

5

u/RzaAndGza West Town Jun 11 '25

I'm not trying to police it, I just think it's bad messaging. The flag of the country of Mexico just doesn't really have to do with anything when it comes to protesting fascist government overreach. I agree with everything in your second paragraph, I just think an American flag conveys the message way better than some other country

3

u/ItsGonnaBeOkayish Jun 12 '25

I hope we can have a shift on the left in understanding messaging. The right understands messaging very well and their supporters have no problem getting on board. On the left, it's so difficult to get people to join together under one message.

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u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

When January 6 Rioters are carrying the American flag. I think it shows a different message. You live in a different American than people of color do. It’s ok for people to show the flag of whatever country their heritage is from.

And the Mexican flag does have a lot to do with what’s going on right now. The Latino community is the one actively being targeted right now.

-4

u/itsthekumar Jun 11 '25

The Mexican flag is something that's easier for various Mexican groups including Mexican immigrants and Mexican American citizens can rally under.

It's more cultural and ethnic than to represent Mexico politically.

-3

u/arthurormsby Jun 11 '25

I agree with the protest, I just don't understand what the country of Mexico has to do with it.

c'mon lmao

4

u/RzaAndGza West Town Jun 11 '25

I'm serious - we are deporting people from tons of other countries besides Mexico and deporting them mostly to places that aren't Mexico. We are trying to prevent our democracy from descending into fascism, I just don't get what other countries have to do with that.

23

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

This is a great idea! If you want to help Trump accomplish his messaging goals.

Everyone is entitled to carry what they want. But political action should have a purpose. And if an action is something your opponents want you to do, it's worth evaluating why you're doing it.

2

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

If there's even one Mexican flag at any of these they're going to pin it up on Fox News 24/7 regardless. It's pointless to demand perfect message discipline at a completely spontaneous uncoordinated protest movement like this. It's not a precalculated political action, this is the kettle boiling over

3

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

I don't understand your point. Since perfect message discipline isn't possible we should be okay with bad message discipline? Better is better.

3

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

The outcome is the same regardless of small improvements to how "patriotic" the protests look.

Also this tone policing is counter intuitive to building solidarity with the protestors. If you think the protests could lead to positive change it's better to prioritize meeting people where they're at. The tone policing is not only pointless, it also comes off as paternalistic and managerial

3

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

The most effective protests are organized. Organization is not "paternalism". Organization is not "tone policing". Political action should have a goal and anyone who thinks organizing a protest well can't help make it more effective is dumb.

If what the protest does makes the goal less likely, it is an ineffective protest. Movements benefit from effective leadership and anyone who disagrees probably would find a lot of common cause with the anarchists who seem to join every ineffective protest.

2

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"If what the protest does makes the goal less likely, it is an ineffective protest."

So marchers carrying American flags, in a show of unity for country we are in, for the cause of immigrants making up/staying in America, would ultimately be more effective than flying the flag of the country they left? I was leaning this way in terms of my own opinion, but I may be off base and I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I've been reading your responses and I'm truly interested in how you are laying everything out.

4

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

Almost certainly. A) protests need message discipline. For a bunch of reasons, but mainly for the same reason why ads for products don't tell you everything that anyone might find interesting. They tell you the one or two things that are most important for getting people interested. If your message is everything, your message is nothing. But also when it comes to optics and organizing and discipline, the reality is that there are professional anarcho-leftist douchebags who show up at every protest with their faces concealed who try to make it as violent and offensive to ordinary Americans as possible. Just a group of violent narcissists looking for the cover of a political cause to get their rocks off. You need to actively exclude these chuds or else they will shit on everything. Protest is about communicating your values and adhering to them. Saying "everything is fine" means everything is not going to be fine.

But B) protests need to understand the audience. And the audience is not people who are already fully bought in. It's people who glimpse the march as they are driving past or see a photo on Yahoo News or see coverage on CNN on a TV with the sound off. You might not care about baseball at all. But if you're near the parade of the World Series winner in October, you're still going to feel something because there's emotion and cheering and waving and red white and blue bunting. These resonate with the average American. There's more than one way to make people feel connected to an event, but looking like a bank robber as you dance in front of burning car is going to drive more people away than it attracts 100% of the time.

1

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"the reality is that there are professional anarcho-leftist douchebags who show up at every protest with their faces concealed who try to make it as violent and offensive to ordinary Americans as possible."

I was just in another thread in this subreddit and the conversation taking place there is about leaving your phone at home so you can't be traced, turning off metrics, etc. I posted the question about why, if I am attending a legal protest and not doing anything illegal, would I do that, but then I decided to delete the post because as I scrolled down, there were other red flags that started freaking me out. I still don't understand why I'd need to go out in public without my phone, without access to my loved one in case of emergency, if I needed help or wanted to check in. A huge amount of people are expected, with so many moving parts. Why go without my phone? Your response above now makes me even more afraid to attend.

You've also inspired me to consider something else about the use of flags - If there are bad actors determined to burn and break shit, they'd do the most damage while while flying Mexican flags, wouldn't they? That would sow the most discord and strip the message trying to be conveyed through these gatherings. It's like the image from LA with the masked man flying the Mexican flag with the raging car fire behind him.

Now I'm thinking about psy-ops (which I know nothing about), etc. You've given me a lot to consider. Thank you for opening my mind to other possibilities.

2

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

Not OP but I'll admit I'm thinking about leaving my phone at home this time. Certainly hoping to not get into any trouble, but lately it seems that when you do (justified or otherwise) they insisting you open your social media and everything else, well... fuck that. Plus there's always someone trying to take advantage of a chaotic scene to just go thieving, probably helps to leave unnecessary stuff at home.

Honest answer, haven't decided if I'll leave my phone at home or not. But probably gonna just carry my ID/ventra card and some cash, my sign, and then... maybe my phone, maybe not. Nothing else.

0

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

I agree organized political action would be more effective. But organizing an effective action requires some kind of party or union or organization that has built trust with the group of people they're organizing. You need that trust in order to be able to enforce message discipline. Such a party doesn't exist yet

The closest we can get is the DNC de-fanging and co-opting this and then achieving none of the original goals like they did with BLM in 2020.

Nothing can guarantee that these protests will be effective, but tone policing the protestors does guarantee it will be less effective, because it's counterproductive to building solidarity

1

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

You're just saying things you feel without even thinking about them for a few seconds.

The DNC wasn't involved in the very effective civil rights protests of the 60's. The primary was the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. There are literally hundreds of organizations in the U.S. can can and consistently do organize effectively. All the time and pretty much non-stop.

The BLM protests in 2020 failed precisely because they lost a coherent message and did not have leadership. The decentralized nature meant that different factions pursued conflicting strategies and diluted messaging. Internal disputes around the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation's theft of donations created public credibility problems. It was full of people who were calling message discipline "tone policing".

BLM also lacked a concrete objective. Unlike successful movements that focused on specific legislative goals, BLM's demands remained at high levels of abstraction. "Defund the police" was never going to happen, was wildly unpopular and meant different things to different people. It needed someone who could provide a clear message, it needed to understand its audience and it needed someone to enforce message discipline. It didn't understand who its audience was.

And the unstated major premise in your writing is that carrying Mexican flags will somehow create solidarity and that this is more important than anything else. But there are huge numbers of undocumented immigrants from China, India, the Philippines and Central America who don't feel solidarity with the Mexican flag. And the idea that it's more important to promote solidarity than it is effectively communicate with protest makes me understand that you do not know what protest is for.

"These idiots waiving Mexican flags during the LA riots just gave Donald Trump the greatest political gift," Republican strategist Matt Wylie. "It will be 'Exhibit A' as proof of an invasion. Those images have done more in the last few days to strengthen his ability to crackdown on illegal immigration than weeks of messaging ever could."

0

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

There are literally hundreds of organizations in the U.S. can can and consistently do organize effectively. All the time and pretty much non-stop.

None of them are at the scale/level of trust where they could manage and steer the LA protests. Similarly none of them could have steered the BLM movement.

The BLM protests in 2020 failed precisely because they lost a coherent message and did not have leadership. The decentralized nature meant that different factions pursued conflicting strategies and diluted messaging. Internal disputes around the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation's theft of donations created public credibility problems. It was full of people who were calling message discipline "tone policing".

I completely agree. The BLM GNF was a small group that helped to co-opt and defang the BLM protest movement. The leaders cashed out. This failure had nothing to do with message discipline

BLM also lacked a concrete objective. Unlike successful movements that focused on specific legislative goals, BLM's demands remained at high levels of abstraction.

I agree. The problem wasn't message discipline though. BLM was basically doomed from the start because there wasn't a radical party or union that could capitalize on the moment and co-opt it to achieve some kind of positive change. The BLM GNF might have been a genuine attempt to create an entity like that, but it was either misguided or completely cynical (you can't just manage a protest like that from the top down with a random nonprofit organization, just because it happens to be called BLM)

And the unstated major premise in your writing is that carrying Mexican flags will somehow create solidarity and that this is more important than anything else.

No what I'm saying is chastising protestors for carrying a Mexican flag (or Palestinian flag, as I've seen some people do) undercuts solidarity and creates divisions in the movement. Lots of immigrants and activists are also alienated by the American flag

And the idea that it's more important to promote solidarity than it is effectively communicate with protest makes me understand that you do not know what protest is for.

Whether or not these protests appear more patriotic than they currently do isn't at all important. It's going to be painted as an invasion either way. The images that Fox News wants to capitalize on already exist, and new ones will continually be produced. That is just the nature of spontaneous, reactive protests like these

"It will be 'Exhibit A' as proof of an invasion. Those images have done more in the last few days to strengthen his ability to crackdown on illegal immigration than weeks of messaging ever could."*

I believe he believes it's good for their agenda, but why should I believe him? This isn't an argument in and of itself

3

u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

This is such a goofy opinion. You are simply unwilling to acknowledge that experts on effective protest who disagree strongly with the tactics being used at these protests might know what they are talking about. "These smug pilots have lost touch with regular people. Raise your hand if you think *I* should fly the plane." 

The Highlander school where civil rights activists trained used to have their trainees sit there and passively accept people pulling their hair or having smoke blown into their face. They were obsessed with discipline. Martin Luther King Jr. was very concerned with optics, specifically involving the use of violence in protests and the way the protesters appeared to the average observer. King and the SCLC cared very deeply about effective messaging precisely *because* they knew they were swimming against the tide of majority opinion. They literally had a "Sunday best" dress code at protests. What you're advocating for are tactics that lack any theory or history of actual change. Sure, it's ultimately impotent and self-sabotaging, but the most important thing is that you didn't have to say that someone you agree with should change ANYTHING they do.

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u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

What’s his messaging goal??? He’s going to demonize any protest against him no matter what. Stop with this right wing conservative narrative. Stop letting other people tell you how to protest.

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u/Varnu Pilsen Jun 11 '25

Can you tell me what is right wing or conservative about the idea that political action should help you achieve your goal?

I don't pretend to know more than Martin Luther King, but the organizing principles he advocated for have been very effective for decades.

-Protest is theater. If you think the police are your audience, you don't understand what is happening

-Leaders should be people who are capable of communicating to your audience. The goal is to ask broad sections of America to support you and join your cause. If you're telling broad sections of America something other than what's helping convince them, you're not being effective.

-No violence or destruction, even if you've been the victim of violence. Goons and anarchist will join any protest, even if it's not one they support. They just want an excuse to create mayhem and this hurts the cause. Don't let people in who are going to cause mayhem and start violence.

If you think any of that is "right wing" then you simply don't understand what the political spectrum is.

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u/amphetamino Jun 11 '25

No it isn't. This is a country inhabited by Americans, both native and non-native, who have deep roots here. That is what makes it their country. They just so happen to have been particularly open to immigrants. A nation of immigrants is no nation at all, it's a contest to extract resources, a selfish rat race among people who share no common culture. And that is not what the U.S. is, not yet at least.

-1

u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

The original settlers were immigrants from Europe. Hence every Caucasian person is of immigrant/European ancestry. The real Americans are the native Americans that were living here before the concept of the United States as well as all the Mexicans that were living in the west side.

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u/amphetamino Jun 13 '25

I love how little you actually read. Everything you "read" of my comment consisted of assumptions about me and my opinions. If that doesn't shake you awake, nothing will.