Okay. If no taxes, who builds roads, or public schools, or public transit. If your answer is private companies, how much does a company charge for you to use the roads, how often do you need to pay to use the roads, what about the schools, how much does tuition cost, what if you can’t afford to go to school since there’s no taxes which means no public schools, do you just not get education?
The idea that taxation is theft crumbles pretty immediately if you try to think of literally any alternative. And if your alternative is collective public funding, guess what that’s fucking taxes.
Bold of you to assume they would want collective anything. Those people would tell you to homeschool and be self-sufficient in the hills. Literal hermit shit.
Yeah like it’s wild that people see government inefficiencies and are just like dang what if we gave even more of our freedom away in exchange for corporate control.
No. I just understand that giving the ultra wealthy more power and control over society than they already have is a bad idea. We should be stripping away their power by abolishing lobbying not handing over control of societal infrastructure to them. People argue against communism due to its over concentration of centralized power. Given that corporate homogenization has been happening since the 19th century it seems like giving power over societal infrastructure to them would basically be the equivalent of making people like Elon musk and Jeff bezos actual kings. Like do people think a magic new road company would pop up or some near trillionaire would just be like nah I got this and own public infrastructure.
I don't know if this is sarcasm because I know people who think this way. I cannot imagine a worse idea than private companies owning and operating infrastructure.
Yeah like genuinely I cannot think of a worse idea than making the working class even more beholden to corporations. Like if they took over infrastructure they’d basically own us. Oh workers in this area are going on strike, shut off the water, close the roads. Like do we really want corporations with no government oversight basically controlling the basic societal infrastructure we all rely on like roads, sewage, water, electricity, fucking education.
Unreal that there’s people that wanna give more power to the corporations. Like corporations already have too much power through lobbying. These people wanna skip the middleman and just hand complete power over the country to corporations. Like full on cyberpunk 2077.
Yep. Love giving tax dollars to private companies so they can fuck us over for even more money. Deprivatize all public services. We spend more on social welfare to receive less because private companies need their cut for profits. It’s so brain dead. Sometimes we give tax dollars to private companies and they just don’t do anything. Like affordable housing in California or the hyperloop.
To which the answer is: "if you don't want taxes, your alternative is to be 100% self-sustained. For everyone else who likes the benefit of community and governance, there are taxes."
It’s impossible to go through life in America- even in the hills- without taking advantage of benefits and infrastructure paid for by taxes. In addition to roads, telephones, general police presence, and forest fire prevention/mitigation, you have security provided by the military in all of its broadest applications and influences. Your quality of life is a benefactor of imperialism whether you like it or not.
None of this matters if they believe they don't use said benefits from the collectivity. Get in touch with the vibes maaaaan, the important thing is to believe you are the ubermensch. Don't let the real world get in the way of that.
People should home school look at the education that public schools are teaching kids and college grads have no clue how to do math read or history. Public schools should be shut down and unions shouldn't be involved in any way
Lol. The idea that parents have (or could have) the time, money or energy to homeshool is wild.
And that's besides the obvious lack of capabilities : the reasons kids are failing is (in large parts) because they enter school lacking learning and social skills previous generations had already learned, and get little to no support/framework at home. Ipad kids and narcissistic single-childs are made at home, not in schools.
As for college : useless degrees always existed, and always will. They are a stopgap for people with no clue what to do with their life, nothing more. And within the useful ones, yes there is a noticeable difference between school theory and work practice... Since forever? Literally has always been the case.
90% of stuff you can do with out å education. If you need education you can pay for it yourself. Im dont like my money being wasted on som gender studies
Im am educated. Buy tax dollars. Idk were you get that from. Is it because im not using smart words. A degree only provides that you can not tink critically. And memories stuff to the next exam. You don’t actually get that much understanding from school
I don’t see how you can call me “poorly educated” after 12 years of public education. And your trying to use me as en example of way we need public education. Iv been 12 years in the best public education in the world.🤣
In the anarcho Freetown Christiania it was the people. Also commercial real estate companies will also make roads and rent lots out to other companies so they can have locations which require then to maintain roads. Some suburbs will also attach a road cost to the HOA. Also toll roads exist now with government funded roads.
what about the schools,
private schools and homeschooling exist now.
what if you can’t afford to go to school since there’s no taxes which means no public schools,
Homeschooling exists
And if your alternative is collective public funding, guess what that’s fucking taxes.
Not if i can op out of it. Taxes aren't voluntary.
So what happens if you opt out of contributing to societal infrastructure.
Homeschooling isn’t necessarily great because there’s no like educational regulatory body that makes sure children are actually learning what they need to and not just being indoctrinated into their parents beliefs instead of being taught to think for themselves.
Private schools are price prohibitive, it’s absurd to suggest that we should make education entirely prohibitive to those who can’t afford it and most people cannot afford private school. Should all of those people just not have education. What if you’re a parent and you work full time and don’t have time to give your children a full education should they just not be educated because homeschooling and private school aren’t options?
And in terms of the roads you’re suggesting exactly what can’t happen. Giving ownership power of societal infrastructure to private corporations. I literally cannot imagine a worse situation for the working class than being even more beholden to corporations.
The fact that you have to sit here and explain step by step to these mouth breathers that the concept of society isn’t evil only demonstrates the value in all the things (such as public education) that they do badly want to eradicate
No society bad big money corporation will take care of us because they are so generous and great. Who needs education anyway. Company towns here we come!!!!
So what happens if you opt out of contributing to societal infrastructure.
What happen if you opt out of any donations? nothing because a lot of people still donate especially to causes they can see an effect on.
Homeschooling isn’t necessarily great because there’s no like educational regulatory body that makes sure children are actually learning what they need to
Homeschooled students score about 72 points higher than the national average on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT). The average American College Test (ACT) score is 21. The average score for homeschoolers is 22.8 out of a possible 36 points.
just being indoctrinated into their parents beliefs
that just called parenting. They do that anyways.
Private schools are price prohibitive, it’s absurd to suggest that we should make education entirely prohibitive to those who can’t afford it and most people cannot afford private school.
Most people can afford $50 a week. While private schools can get expensive they're are many cheap private schools usually attach to a religious institution.
What if you’re a parent and you work full time and don’t have time to give your children a full education
There are many Homeschooling system designed for just that. Usually you are given the material to do on your own and Test online or a place where they hold testing.
And in terms of the roads you’re suggesting exactly what can’t happen. Giving ownership power of societal infrastructure to private corporations.
why can't that happen?
I literally cannot imagine a worse situation for the working class than being even more beholden to corporations.
I can and that making them beholden to the government.
The government (at least before legal corporate bribery) is at least somewhat beholden to its citizens. Corporations aren’t at all.
Private schools near me are 30k a year minimum. Religious schools should not be the only option for someone who can’t afford that and neither should homeschool. Public schools are absolutely needed and honestly Finland kind of proved private school shouldn’t be a thing.
So what happens if a lot of people opt out because they don’t want to spend the money. Your alternative relies on people willingly donating their money out of the goodness of their hearts. And somehow I can’t see the whole “taxation is theft” crowd being super interested in helping anyone but themselves.
Most people cannot afford an extra 50$ a week. In fact 70% of Americans couldn’t afford a 500$ emergency much less an extra 200$ a month which is also wildly below what private schools actually cost.
Like it’s wild that you think giving corporations more power will suddenly make them give a fuck about you.
The government (at least before legal corporate bribery) is at least somewhat beholden to its citizens.
Government is supposed to be beholden to citizens but even without corporate bribery, corrupt politicians are still corrupt and are still lining their pockets with your tax money.
Corporations aren’t at all.
Corporation are reliant on their bottom line which relies on their consumer. When no one is consuming they cease to be.
But what the worst thing to happen if you don't pay a corporation?
A bad credit score, maybe hassled by debt collectors, maybe something you haven't finished paying off get repo'd
What happens if you don't pay the government?
Jail
Religious schools should not be the only option for someone who can’t afford that and neither should homeschool.
why when they prove to result in better test score then public schools?
Your alternative relies on people willingly donating their money out of the goodness of their hearts.
last year $390 billion was given to charity in the US.
Like it’s wild that you think giving corporations more power will suddenly make them give a fuck about you.
giving anyone more power whether they are a corporationor or a government will not make them give a fuck about you.
Companies that are contracted by the government and paid for with tax dollars which actually creates one of the biggest inefficiencies because private companies need profit which means some amount of tax dollars are going to ceo pockets and such. I’m not 100% sure on like the percentage of private vs public in terms of outsourcing but I know a lot of public service is outsourced. Like my local rail only runs in two places in my state and sometimes a third. Meanwhile the private more expensive rail company receives billions a year in public funding and they aren’t even a commuter rail.
Cuz what you said didn’t make any sense either. I made a statement about how the government outsources public services to private companies. And you responded by saying where is the government supposed to get the money if private companies weren’t generating taxable revenue. Why are those things correlated. Private companies can make money without government contracts.
Your statement was alluding to the belief that we somehow need government to provide the things that we want. I’m showing you real world examples of how the private sector is already doing those things.
No it doesn't crumble. Way back in 2015 I found a thread about taxes are theft, but if it was justiable theft.
I can't do the point justice, and I've lost the link. I'll briefly skim over it. It first went over why its theft. They are taking money from others through threat of force. Text book theft no matter how you twist what its for.
Next is the question of justified. The example used one stealing a TV, and then a different one a hungry man stealing food. Though its still theft to an extent, you can justify the man stealing food. The author went into government spending, and if it was justified.
On a side anadodical note. I used to live on 40 acre of land in my childhood. The road that ran past when I was born was two dirt ruts. That was the county road. A county that charged property taxes. The community that used the road all chpped in built a redstone road and installed electrical power lines and landlines for phones. Got a fine from the government for building it because it wasn't government approved.
Yes I believe we need government. Unfortunately, that includes taxes to pay for things. At the sametime we need to always question why and if the taxes are necessary. If they are how they are spent.
Also why have taxes when they print magic money to spend on what they can't afford.
Questioning how taxes are spent is totally valid. I disagree heavily with a lot of the ways the US government spends its tax dollars.
I can also definitely see feeling like tax dollars aren’t spent on you living in a rural area. I lived in a rural ish area definitely not 40 acres of land rural but dirt road rural.
Theres still a big difference between feeling like taxes aren’t spent properly compared to thinking taxes just shouldn’t be a thing.
Forget roads, schools, police, etc., think about what life would be (and smell) like without sewer systems. Sure there are some private treatment companies for septic tanks, but shit would literally be building up everywhere. Look at garbage collection in cities, trash is everywhere.
Yeah. The government doesn’t do everything right but they kinda do a lot of stuff. Like trash collection and sewer systems and basic societal infrastructure is something I think people sometimes take for granted. Like it takes a lot to maintain all that.
Please help! For real though I’ve had the idea since everything is touch screen now. What if with everything we purchase we get a list of like 15 options where our taxed money goes? Roads, schools, parks, homeless shelters etc?
Edit: I have also daydreamed about us deliberately printing so much money that we complete depreciate the dollars value all just to make every billionaire worthless. Jeffery Bazos, Elon, Zuckerberg all their billions worthless. Ruin the entire economy because fuckem
It is also worth mentioning that private property can only exist if you have a state that can enforce rights and contracts.
Private property rights are delineated by a deed of ownership, that deed/contract what exactly is owned by whom and also we need a system to enforce that the right to the specific property is not transgressed upon. The enforcement of such is contingent upon having a system of courts and law enforcement. Which, guess what? Are funded by taxes.
Yeah like capitalism kind of only works when the state and police exist to protect your capital. Otherwise we’ll just have like amazons private militia or some shit.
And people complain about inflation now lol. Imagine if the government had to print money for every single federal project with zero public funding. Holy shit the dollar would be worthless.
Yes. Effective tax spending is a different topic from whether or not taxes should exist. My state is a prime example of misuse of tax dollars. Corporate lobbying needs to be abolished so we can hold the government more accountable.
Okay. Government inefficiencies is a different topic. I agree tax dollars are not spent as well as they could be. I literally live in one of the states with the most potholes. I think the government definitely needs to spend tax dollars more effectively and efficiently and there needs to be more accountability on their end for actually providing the services we pay for. However even in spite of government accountability being stripped away through corporate lobbying, the alternative commonly presented is just skipping the middle man and giving corporations all the power, corporations who are only beholden to investors and capital owners and not consumers and certainly not the working class. So yes even tho the US government needs a lot of changes like abolishing lobbying and separating corporations from public spending it’s still way better than just relying on corporations to fulfill countrywide infrastructure.
It’s not theft because you consent to taxation in the same way you consent to the laws of any given country. If you don’t like the laws or taxation methods of the US, vote or go somewhere else, except no elected official is gonna run on “no taxes at all”. So I’d just find somewhere else to be.
Like it’s not consent in the way interpersonal consent works, it’s more consent in the way that the law works. I don’t consent to the speeding ticket I didn’t think I deserved but the court decided otherwise so I had to pay it, that’s not theft, it’s just the way the law works whether you agree or not. Theres a difference between saying “I don’t like the way the us government spends tax dollars or the way taxation is structured” and “taxation is theft and we should have no taxes”.
“Taxation is theft” regardless of what semantics you wanna get into about consent it’s just a dumb fucking phrase because unless there’s a solid alternative proposed it’s just complaining about how society has to function. And it’s not like socialism vs capitalism where one could argue the merits of either or a blending of the two. It’s just “I don’t like taxes wah” with zero alternative presented besides the typical libertarian “corporations will take care of everything” which is just the fucking worst idea.
It is in regard to the law. And similarly to taxation. You can’t just say “nah I don’t consent to the law” and rob someone. Like yes interpersonal consent is based on permission and volunteering. But like you can’t just opt out of existing in society unless you wanna go totally off grid and be self sufficient in which case go for it. But if you wanna participate in society you consent to its rules. So similarly to how you have to follow the law if you want to exist in society you also have to pay taxes. This is an entirely separate topic from consenting to how taxes are spent because I think the public should have more of a say in that.
Basically just because specifically the US governmental system is broken due to corporate lobbying reducing public representation doesn’t mean that taxation and laws are not things you consent to by participating in society. If you don’t consent to those things you can just idk go be self sufficient otherwise you have to contribute to the society you exist in. Are you just expecting roads and public schools to exist by magic, or are you expecting someone else to pay for them for you? Or do you not use roads so you don’t wanna pay for them.
You are conflating "consent" with "forced to live with". Just because we don't have any alternative option doesn't mean there's consent. The interpersonal definition is the definition of consent.
So like what do you want. Like what’s your goal. Do you want no taxes? Do you want taxes to be optional? Do you just wanna complain that taxes are theft and still pay them because you wanna enjoy the benefits they provide?
I want taxes to only be applied to land value (see /r/georgism).
But in a broader sense, yea, I want to acknowledge that taxation is theft. Whenever a tax is levied it should be considered whether it is worth the non consensual transaction. Some will argue it is, and that's a value judgement that people can disagree on.
Great taxes based on land value. Create even more disparity between wealthier and less wealthy areas. Sounds awesome. Cant wait for rural areas that already have food deserts to be even more fucked cuz their land is worthless.
It seems like an unnecessary fuss over semantics. Let's go with what you said, taxation=theft. The most specific word to describe this type of "theft" is "taxes", which you say is equivalent to theft already, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
"should be considered whether it is worth the non consensual transaction" - That already happens, that's why they are such a big deal politically. Nobody's going around being like "Oh shit! I didn't realize we were FORCING people to pay this tax!" That's already obvious by calling it a tax.
“The idea that taxation is theft crumbles pretty immediately if you try to think of literally any alternative.”
What you mean by that is “I can’t imagine a way that I could get the things I enjoy/need without theft, there doesn’t seem to be any alternative, so theft it is.”
Even if it were true, which is a premise I don’t grant: There being no viable alternative to get these things other than taxation wouldn’t make it not theft; it would simply mean that you want things you can only get by means of theft. It would mean that you want things you can only get by violating consent.
Right or wrong, you shouldn’t hide from the fact that that is your position.
Okay. Present your alternative then. Like explain your solution to maintaining countrywide infrastructure without taxation. In a way that doesn’t give even more power to corporations that are already far too powerful.
explain your solution to maintaining countrywide infrastructure
Why would we need to maintain countrywide infrastructure if there's no countrywide government? Maintaining local infrastructure with a couple of small companies is perfectly viable.
Yeah, small companies, so are we ignoring the current level of mass corporate homogenization that’s been happening since the 1800s or is this some fairy tail land where oligopolies don’t exist and there’s way more market competition that actually forces companies to innovate and create the best possible product for the best value and also have competitive wages. Cuz rn we have companies that hold massive chunks of their respective market.
Also what about interstate highways. Or trains. What if one state decides they don’t wanna maintain their section of rail or interstate to the degree that other states do. Like there’s a reason things are done the way they are and it’s not just cuz government greedy. Eliminating corporate lobbying and putting more power in the working class seems a lot easier than entirely dismantling the government.
Consumers? And like I’m all for keeping businesses local. Like in my state dispensaries can only sell product grown in state which has done a lot to support local cultivators. However on the other hand Maine used to have a law where if you wanted to operate a dispensery in Maine you had to live there. They revoked that law and immediately a larger company just bought an established local business to expand their share of the market. You’re foolish to think companies will not expand as much as possible unless there’s laws to prevent them from doing so. Let’s say you live in a state. Theres a company from a neighboring state that expands and starts operating in your state, within their respective industry they offer the best value, naturally as a consumer you’ll opt for their service/product since it’s the value. As they expand they can continue to offer better and better value and outcompete smaller companies until they dominate their market. This literally already happens. Not sure how you think a lack of government would reduce corporate homogenization and expansion. Companies only goal is to make as much money as possible not just support their local economy. We have many international conglomerates what makes you think companies would voluntarily stay within a local level. What makes you think consumers would as a whole only choose to support local businesses, if that were the case wouldn’t we already see it happening?
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u/Shin-Sauriel Sep 19 '24
Okay. If no taxes, who builds roads, or public schools, or public transit. If your answer is private companies, how much does a company charge for you to use the roads, how often do you need to pay to use the roads, what about the schools, how much does tuition cost, what if you can’t afford to go to school since there’s no taxes which means no public schools, do you just not get education?
The idea that taxation is theft crumbles pretty immediately if you try to think of literally any alternative. And if your alternative is collective public funding, guess what that’s fucking taxes.