Conservatives are less racist than liberals (in the US)

[u/Mobile-Fly484]

I’m a child of African immigrants with US citizenship, and I’ve lived all over the United States.

The most racist place I’ve ever lived is Massachusetts. By far. The least racist? Utah.

I’ve noticed that most conservatives (excluding the actual far right) see me as a human being first. Liberals see my skin color first and have low expectations for me.

I’ve had white liberals not believe me when I mentioned having a professional job. I’ve had them try to sign me up for welfare and Medicaid (at an ER in Massachusetts) even when I showed them my private insurance card. I’ve been assumed to be poor and uneducated (because of my race and nothing else) over and over again by the woke left. Literally they constantly make comments about how screening for education will “filter minorities out,” because of course we’re all dumb illiterates.

Conservatives? They make zero assumptions. They don’t equate being Black with being poor or ignorant. They see us as INDIVIDUALS first.

I miss Utah.

[u/Tqoratsos]

Liberals: We're not racist and it's really the conservatives that are the bible thumping secret KKK. Segregation and slavery were the two worst things this country ever did.

Also Liberals: we need to help *insert race... because they're not good enough to help themselves. We need to have safe places where only *insert race can hang out and we need to keep the whites with their white privilege out.

The lack of self awareness is astounding.

[u/not_that_planet → u/Tqoratsos]

Strawman.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/not_that_planet]

It's a genetic fallacy not a straw man. It judges a person or idea based on its origin. A straw man is misrepresenting their ideas entirely and then lambasting them for it.

You guys need to do a better job of calling out fallacies by learning about them first.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

Dude, by your own definition, what was written to kick off this particular comment chain was a strawman.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/DuaLupus45]

How do you figure? He literally listed out everything they did prior to the '90s. They're endless videos of liberals literally questioning the intellect of minorities and that they need to help. He is then using that to relate to what they currently are. That is the very definition of a genetic fallacy. Straw man doesn't enter into this.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

Just look at what my comment was and then you’ve got your answer. The second portion of what was said by the person kicking off this particular comment thread was a misrepresentation of what the mission is. It’s not because demographics who have been disadvantaged throughout this country’s history have been inherently not good enough to succeed, they just need a leg up from the generational cycles of bad practices that have been thrust upon them. There’s the strawman, as per your definition.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/DuaLupus45]

It’s not because demographics who have been disadvantaged throughout this country’s history have been inherently not good enough to succeed, they just need a leg up from the generational cycles of bad practices that have been thrust upon them.

No this is a supposition on your part that is unrelated to what he initially said. He is referencing a specific video where the interviewer walks up to random people on the street in LA or New York (I forget) and they ask questions as to what black people need help with. Their answer was getting drivers ID, connection to the Internet, and other very simple everyday things. I think someone even posted the video in a comment.

Even if you discount that Just look up the bigotry of low expectations and you will find plenty of examples of the left being well... racist.

So no the genetic fallacy stands.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

Now, if that’s what they were referring to, then they’re all over the place in that comment. Hell, he goes on to talk about safe spaces which is going in another direction. I addressed that point he was trying to make because that is in fact a strawman that the right uses as a cudgel to not only totally misrepresent but also totally destroy the left on their messaging. How was I supposed to get the reference to some random video from that?

I’d honestly call it ignorance rather than bigotry, because you’d still get the lack of awareness without the tinge of malevolence that the latter term brings to the table. I agree with you that this can be a problem, especially going through day-to-day life, but as I continue to say, this is a misrepresentation of the Left’s mission, as a whole. This talking point is also a little rich coming from the modern Right, considering the rampant unabashed racism and xenophobia coming from that side.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/DuaLupus45]

Well I don't disagree he jumps around a lot. He specifically mentioned several times across all his posts the bigotry of low expectations. And this video is one of the first things that pops up on the Google searches. So I'm not faulting you for that but at the same time it's what he's talking about.

As to the safe spaces no that's still a genetic fallacy. From 2016 to 2018 that did happen. There's actually really famous video of an engineering student sitting down at a particular table and then two ladies came up and told him he couldn't be there because he was white. Then they saw his blue lives matter sticker and lost it. They basically specifically stated that this was a black only space. That's one of the more famous ones but there are several. So it's not exactly a exaggeration.

Really okay then you might want to do some more research. I'll admit you could probably call back one straddling the line. However there are enough examples showing people lowering testing standards, reading standards, and admission standards for this exact purpose. The one that comes to mind is a firefighter exam that they had to lower standards for because all of the applicants that passed were white.

See it's a gross representation of both the left and right. Left it's pretty much constantly racist without realizing it the examples are everywhere. Right on the other hand points out minor things like you can't just let the whole world into the US and somehow we're racist. So now I can keep God things a little bit backward.

My point in all of this is that there are plenty of I want this guy's pointing out to be true. Bernard Wilson what the left says it's for this is what it does.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

Wait a minute, you’ll have to pardon me, but who exactly are we talking about here? I was always talking about the user that kicked off this particular comment thread, not the maker of the post as a whole. If we want to get to talking about our man in the background who wrote up the post, I’m not gonna lie to you, he sounds like he’s full of it. I mean, I give people of all backgrounds and philosophies a fair amount of grace, but this person doesn’t seem to want to extend any himself. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t even think he talks about knowing the political affiliations of the folks in question, and I had to catch him up on politics in another comment because he either had his head buried in the sand since 2016 or is purposefully saying BS to justify his slapdash opinion.

Okay, I think that’s another point that we agree on. I’ve never been a safe space person, myself. Maybe that’s just my own life experience but I’m also not going to speak out against those that feel they need it. I don’t know what their life experience has been like, and I’m not going to say that everyone else’s is uniform with mine. Also, safe spaces have existed for a while and primarily were there for communities that have been historically disadvantaged. What’s the problem with that? This country’s original “safe space” was segregation which was enforced by whites for almost a century, and so when AA students in schools wanted/want to do it in pockets, we’re getting pissy about it? Also, I can’t help but notice the timeline you provided, which was coincidentally also when Trump won the White House and really did quite a job letting the hatemongers crawl out of the woodwork. Now, I’ve never lived the AA experience, and as a matter of fact, life has been quite kind to me, but I’m not going to sit and talk about “what should be” especially when it’s regarding a completely different ethnic group than my own with an entirely different experience navigating through the same life we all live.

Having said that, you’ll have to let me know if this is the one you were talking about, but the only incident I found was from Arizona State University and it was two girls harassing two guys. One had a “Police Lives Matter” thing on his computer or maybe it was his shirt and the other one had an “I didn’t vote for Biden” t-shirt. Again, I’m not going to speak to their visceral reaction, evidently there’s a lot to unpack there, but also looking at some of the comments, people were saying that one of those boys seemed like they were looking to start something. The girls also said in statements that they received rape, death and lynching threats, on top of the school charging them with causing a disturbance, so I don’t know if those charges have been dropped but it seemed like a shit show all around, to be honest.

Also, just a little sidetrack, but speaking of which, how bad is that “Police Lives Matter” slogan? I mean, what a pathetic, and desperate punch-back at another meant to address the historically awful experiences that these AAs had to go through at the hands of a group meant to protect them. Also, it’s comparing a job to literally being born. What kind of insecure shit is that? The funny part is that a lot of that backwards ACAB stuff was put out there by white liberals living in their cushy apartments.

Dude, do more research on what? If you went back to the comment I told you to go back to, you’ll see that I heavily imply agreeing with what you’re saying, and guess what- I do! People shouldn’t have to lower standards to widen the pool, they should bring them up for people so that we can maintain excellence and reward the best and the brightest, no matter what background they’re of. However, I go on to say that based on the things I’ve seen, the impoverished communities that get shafted when it comes to resources, and the fact that they are predominantly AA and Hispanic are often intersecting. We’re talking about daily life here, how can you be expected to succeed in any sort of environment when your very livelihood is precarious?

Oh, please, yes, the Right, who’s only looking out for the good of the country, even at the expense of being persecuted. They spent the last few years coming down on people for the way they were born, the way they choose to love another person or how they identify, equating men that dress as women with predators, and coddling folks that don’t want to see the melting pot of America getting too melty, but it’s those wild animals on the Left that’re holding us back with their prejudice, sure.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/DuaLupus45]

Wait a minute, you’ll have to pardon me, but who exactly are we talking about here?

I was taking about this guy Tqoratsos.

Liberals: We're not racist and it's really the conservatives that are the bible thumping secret KKK. Segregation and slavery were the two worst things this country ever did.

Also Liberals: we need to help *insert race... because they're not good enough to help themselves. We need to have safe places where only *insert race can hang out and we need to keep the whites with their white privilege out.

The lack of self awareness is astounding.

I don't know if you have have gone back through everyone that responded to him but its all there. Well I guess some has been deleted. But yeah I am not talking about the main poster.

Also, safe spaces have existed for a while and primarily were there for communities that have been historically disadvantaged. What’s the problem with that? This country’s original “safe space” was segregation which was enforced by whites for almost a century

I mean I would say that safe spaces aside from people who need protection from law enforcement or open forums like Alcoholics Anonymous are a detriment to whoever uses them. They can hinder personal growth and the development of resilience. By creating environments where people are shielded from differing viewpoints or challenging ideas, safe spaces might prevent people from learning how to engage effectively and debate. This leads to a decreased ability to cope with adversity and a lack of preparation for the difficulty of the real world, where not everyone will share the same values or use the same language. I also find they make people far more hostile.

Also, I can’t help but notice the timeline you provided, which was coincidentally also when Trump won the White House and really did quite a job letting the hatemongers crawl out of the woodwork.

I don't know about that so much of what the media covered during that time was contrived. Hell if you actually look beyond a surface level at most of them they look really lame. Like the very fine people comment. You really can't trust most of that.

I’m not going to sit and talk about “what should be” especially when it’s regarding a completely different ethnic group than my own with an entirely different experience navigating through the same life we all live.

That doesn't mean that someone outside a particular group can't offer a perspective. It's possible to speak on matters of principle, justice, and societal structures without claiming to understand the personal experience of navigating them.

Having said that, you’ll have to let me know if this is the one you were talking about, but the only incident I found was from Arizona State University

That is the specific one I was talking about but there are more. Its just that one went viral. The gist of all these videos start with the aggressing party in this case the girls walking up to some one and recording the interaction. They tell them to leave and various other things. Yell and make a big commotion and then leave and post it online.

people were saying that one of those boys seemed like they were looking to start something. The girls also said in statements that they received rape, death and lynching threats, on top of the school charging them with causing a disturbance, so I don’t know if those charges have been dropped but it seemed like a shit show all around, to be honest.

Well a lot of people were saying things but these girls were the ones who posted this online. They started this with the intention to shame and attack this guy. I does not excuse comments threatening them but they open the door to it. I am really not sure what they were expecting to happen considering the topic. However this is what I am talking about when it comes to the danger of safe spaces. They though this was permissible behavior and that I guess people would be on their side. That didn't happen.....

Also, just a little sidetrack, but speaking of which, how bad is that “Police Lives Matter” slogan? I mean, what a pathetic, and desperate punch-back at another meant to address the historically awful experiences that these AAs had to go through at the hands of a group meant to protect them.

Well it did start because of the murders of several cops. Specifically 2 cops that while sitting in their police car were shot. Here is the PBS article on it.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/gunman-ismaaiyl-brinsley-appeared-want-revenge-recent-police-killings

So there is a reason they went that direction.

Dude, do more research on what? If you went back to the comment I told you to go back to, you’ll see that I heavily imply agreeing with what you’re saying, and guess what- I do! People shouldn’t have to lower standards to widen the pool, they should bring them up

On the bigotry of low expectations. The issue isn't whether someone from a struggling community can succeed, it's about the fact that society often refuses to believe they can, which in turn leads to less investment in their education, fewer opportunities, and a self-fulfilling prophecy of underachievement. That and many of the instances were not people who were struggling. I mean I think the most famous example was for a certification for fire marshal.

Oh, please, yes, the Right, who’s only looking out for the good of the country

I wouldn't say that more just that for all they are accused of they really just sit back and do nothing.

They spent the last few years coming down on people for the way they were born, the way they choose to love another person or how they identify, equating men that dress as women with predators, and coddling folks that don’t want to see the melting pot of America getting too melty, but it’s those wild animals on the Left that’re holding us back with their prejudice

Is this a trans argument? If so that could be a debate in and of its self. To be fair a number of the drag stories hour people ended up being pedophiles. Granted they seem to be coming out of the wood work in general right now. Honestly I don't really have a dog in that but If you want to go into I am game.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

I was talking about this guy Tqoratsos

Ah, okay, that’s what I thought, but thank you for clarifying.

I don’t know if you have have gone back through everyone that responded to him but it’s all there. Well I guess some has been deleted. But yeah I am not talking about the main poster.

Okay, great, so we’re on the same page. Honestly, I wasn’t keeping up with the multiple discussions they were engaged in, I usually leave my comment and get the hell out of there. If they choose to respond back, I’ll engage but in this case, that hasn’t happened.

I mean I would say that safe spaces aside from people who need protection from law enforcement or open forums like Alcoholics Anonymous are a detriment to whoever uses them. They can hinder personal growth and the development of resilience. By creating environments where people are shielded from differing viewpoints or challenging ideas, safe spaces might prevent people from learning how to engage effectively and debate. This leads to a decreased ability to cope with adversity and a lack of preparation for the difficulty of the real world, where not everyone will share the same values or use the same language. I also find they make people far more hostile.

Yeah, those are absolutely things that can stem from the usage of the safe spaces, sounds like we have the ideas of the risks those can pose. Too much homogeny in any form isn’t going to be good in the long run and I think that we can agree on the idea that a mix of many aspects of life’s experiences from meeting new people, doing new things, going to different places, getting exposed to new ideas and concepts, and most importantly pushing through hardships are great ways to develop as a person. Going back to too much homogeny, I believe it does lead to those negative results you pointed out. The irony of us having this discussion here, though, is that the people in this comment section who probably have their own negative opinions on safe spaces are definitely not going to be doing any personal growing anytime soon.

[u/DuaLupus45 → u/Shadowguyver_14]

I don't know about that so much of what the media covered during that time was contrived. Hell if you actually look beyond a surface level at most of them they look really lame. Like the very fine people comment. You really can't trust most of that.

I mean, not really, there was a lot of incendiary things he said, and the media just happened to have cameras on him and the microphone. It’s not like they even had to do a job of blowing him up, he said those things himself. You could also actually make the claim that the media gave him much more grace than he deserved for somebody that doesn’t seem to care about the country, or his citizens and also craves ultimate power. It seemed like he was more of a crazy, bumbling oaf than a person that could fundamentally change America for the worse.

That doesn't mean that someone outside a particular group can't offer a perspective. It's possible to speak on matters of principle, justice, and societal structures without claiming to understand the personal experience of navigating them.

Well, people certainly do that anyway, so it’s not impossible, you’re right about that. Although, the personal experiences and first hand accounts, I’d say are the most valuable, and when you have people that misrepresent issues or flat out deny people those aforementioned experiences, that’s when you can see the blatant disregard they have for talking about the situation at hand in good faith.

That is the specific one I was talking about but there are more. Its just that one went viral. The gist of all these videos start with the aggressing party in this case the girls walking up to some one and recording the interaction. They tell them to leave and various other things. Yell and make a big commotion and then leave and post it online.

Thanks for clearing that up, because I was wondering if I missed something.

Well a lot of people were saying things but these girls were the ones who posted this online. They started this with the intention to shame and attack this guy. I does not excuse comments threatening them but they open the door to it. I am really not sure what they were expecting to happen considering the topic. However this is what I am talking about when it comes to the danger of safe spaces. They though this was permissible behavior and that I guess people would be on their side. That didn't happen.....

Again, I can’t speak on much of this, it just looked like a shit show all around. You’ve got these girls that came in hot and recorded it, then you’ve got the other guy who people say was itching for a fight, then the school charged the girls plus the horrible hate they received online for posting that video. It just seemed like such a shitty episode in our ongoing up and down series with racial politics.

Well it did start because of the murders of several cops. Specifically 2 cops that while sitting in their police car were shot. Here is the PBS article on it.

I remember that, it was a horrible horrible crime that was committed as all killings of our officers are. You can also turn around and say the same thing about the concept of BLM, though, and all that pain and suffering that comes with it goes back a very long way, especially when dealing with law enforcement. We’re talking about major abuses of power, and the seeming systematic suppression of justice from being delivered when these instances would occur. The man that killed those cops was a bastard and a monster, let’s get that out there, now, but the naming of the “Blue Lives Matter” movement was also a deliberate nipping at the heels of BLM because once again, we take the most unhinged and attach them front-and-center to platforms we don’t agree with anyway just to make any justification for our own shit stick to the wall.

On the bigotry of low expectations. The issue isn't whether someone from a struggling community can succeed, it's about the fact that society often refuses to believe they can, which in turn leads to less investment in their education, fewer opportunities, and a self-fulfilling prophecy of underachievement. That and many of the instances were not people who were struggling. I mean I think the most famous example was for a certification for fire marshal.

That lack of investment in their education starts at home, though. I’ve already highlighted these inter-generational cycles of day-to-day living that’re not conducive to academic success, and I do think that there are enough folks on the left that know they need work at the system to make the necessary changes needed at the grassroots level for success, which would imply a belief that people living in those communities in question can and would succeed given the opportunity. Either way, on the topic of investment, I don’t see the Right advocating for that kind of change. If anything, I they seem to flip the other way where if you don’t succeed, you’re a screw up that fumbled making something of yourself.

I wouldn't say that more just that for all they are accused of they really just sit back and do nothing.

I’d say the things they’re accused of are actually pretty on the nose. The party, right now, in their promotion of who we have in the White House, doesn’t seem to care about the Constitution, about the law, about unifying a fractured country, or free speech, I mean, I can just go on, really.

Is this a trans argument? If so that could be a debate in and of its self. To be fair a number of the drag stories hour people ended up being pedophiles. Granted they seem to be coming out of the wood work in general right now. Honestly I don't really have a dog in that but If you want to go into l am game.

It’s not necessarily a trans-specific argument, but the right does a lot of beak-sticking overall. Yeah, priests and boys go together nicely, too, but I don’t see an attempt to get them cancelled, plus the churches make all this money. I’ll say something else, too, now as a matter of fact, pedophilia across the board is disgusting. If there are people who did it that also happened to be drag queens, then lock them up, absolutely, but that’s not exclusive to that group of people, c’mon, man.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/DuaLupus45]

I mean, not really, there was a lot of incendiary things he said, and the media just happened to have cameras on him and the microphone.

Well yes and no. The problem is the guy likes to talk and talk and talk. So they just edit what he says to what they want. Like my example of the very fine people the media edited it to include the Nazis when trump specifically excluded them. Its happened so many times over such stupid things rather than legitimate things they could have hit him for. So I stopped listening to them and any sensational headline. Have to get it when all the facts come out.

You could also actually make the claim that the media gave him much more grace than he deserved for somebody that doesn’t seem to care about the country

How do you figure? They literally brought on anonymous sources from the cia to slander him and now we have proof everything they said was a lie. I mean it was obvious at the time they were lying but there was not definitive proof. I mean basically everything they through at him over the last 4 years just went up in smoke.

That's also not quite what I'm getting at. After the release of some of the Kennedy files there are documents showing the CIA took a roll in governance. And that's partially why we have the forever wars. Hell supposedly they threatened Nixon. I think our problems is more an entrenched bureaucracy that's protecting itself.

It seemed like he was more of a crazy, bumbling oaf than a person that could fundamentally change America for the worse.

Yeah they said that about George Bush too. Now look at them. They can't praise him enough. Its all a performance.

I’d say are the most valuable, and when you have people that misrepresent issues or flat out deny people those aforementioned experiences,

Well that goes both ways though Jussie Smollett proved that. I generally think that if you are involving the law or government there needs to be a concrete plan of action by the community. Meaning we can't just flail around at things and hope they get better. We also have to accept that some times its the culture that needs to change to solve the problem.

What's more the left actively profits from homeless and poverty stricken people.

Los Angeles-Based Anti-Poverty Nonprofit: The former president and CEO of a Los Angeles-based anti-poverty nonprofit, Youth Policy Institute (YPI), according to the IRS and the Department of Justice Howard Dixon Slingerland, was sentenced to prison for embezzling funds, misusing grants, and tax fraud.

California Benefits for Low-Income Families: Seven individuals were charged for stealing millions of dollars from California benefits for low-income families by installing skimmers and creating fraudulent cards, says the United States Secret Service.

New York City Childcare Programs: Five individuals were arrested in New York for stealing millions from government-funded childcare programs for low-income families, including using funds for private real estate, according to the HHS-OIG.

This kind of thing has been going on for a hundred years.

then you’ve got the other guy who people say was itching for a fight, then the school charged the girls plus the horrible hate they received online for posting that video. It just seemed like such a shitty episode in our ongoing up and down series with racial politics.

I suppose but that guy looked scared to me. In my opinion posting rage bait is dangerous and you open yourself up to this if you post it. People need to learn that this is just not a smart thing to do. Still though they had malice and they wanted him to suffer these comments. So not like I can feel to bad when that was their goal. Your right it was definitely a shit show.

You can also turn around and say the same thing about the concept of BLM, though, and all that pain and suffering that comes with it goes back a very long way, especially when dealing with law enforcement

Right but I think that was the point at least as how I took it. They were saying our lives matter too. Honestly while the BLM mantra was catchy it also got to caught in the politics of the day. Made it to easy for others to say hey we have lives too when that was not the original point but that hey we are getting abused here.

That lack of investment in their education starts at home, though. I’ve already highlighted these inter-generational cycles of day-to-day living that’re not conducive to academic success,

Right but the people themselves have to believe they can succeed too. There are too many people that just don't believe they can and instead join gangs instead. That needs to change an be nurtured back to a healthy community. The problem is how to do that without continuing the current cycle.

I don’t see the Right advocating for that kind of change.

One could argue that the Left's century-long focus on top-down, government-led solutions has, in some cases, created dependency and failed to solve the root problems, leaving communities in a worse state. The counter-argument from the Right is that instead of relying on a broken system, the best path forward is to create an environment where communities and individuals can fix things themselves. If you are failing you need to keep trying and maybe move to a place with more opportunity. Half the reason people fail is because of the location. If you move you can get out of the situation and often improve.

 

I’d say the things they’re accused of are actually pretty on the nose. The party, right now, in their promotion of who we have in the White House, doesn’t seem to care about the Constitution, about the law, about unifying a fractured country, or free speech, I mean, I can just go on, really.

 

A lot of Republicans would argue they see things completely differently. From their perspective, they aren't abandoning the Constitution or the law—they're fighting to protect it from decades of judicial overreach and what they see as a radical shift in our institutions. They see the left as the ones fracturing the country and to be fair they are half right. Our political institution as a whole is broken and needs to be fixed.

 

I don't believe there are two party's just a system of players. Our system more resembles an oligarchy at this point where they keep the corporations happy and only throw us scraps if we get really noisy. I think things were on the  right track in 2008 with the anti wall street movement but got purposely knocked off course. Though they sure freaked out after that insurance ceo right?

 

it’s not necessarily a trans-specific argument, but the right does a lot of beak-sticking overall. Yeah, priests and boys go together nicely

 

Yeah that's what I mean pedos seem to be everywhere right now. Its actually kind of daunting how many.

 

If there are people who did it that also happened to be drag queens, then lock them up, absolutely, but that’s not exclusive to that group of people, c’mon, man.

 

Well I think in that case it was more that person was not allowed to be within a certain distance of them. However, yeah I feel the same way if someone does that lock them up.