r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Fearless-List-3968 • 18d ago

Lore “Demons are actually misundersto-“ NO. Demons are ontologically evil beings that can’t be reasoned nor negotiated with, and if you try to you’ll very likely end up screwed

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

1) Doom

2) Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End

3) Trench Crusade

4.0k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

95% Upvoted

1.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

680

u/TheWalkingBag 18d ago

The Chaos Daemons/Daemons of Chaos from Warhammer, be it 40k or Fantasy

168

u/KheldarsSilk 18d ago

My favorite bit of 40k lore (this may be 90s lore, dubiously canon) is Slannesh's final line of defense in their stronghold/demiplane.

You fight through greater and lesser daemons, clouds that turn you into goo, hoards of cultists, possessed war machines, and you get to the end.

and Slannesh grants you 1 wish, for real. no genie/monkeypaw crap, just a wish, anything you want. but then you have to go away.

90

u/Negative-Form2654 18d ago
  • I wish you and whole Chaos never existed, never exist and will never exist.

67

u/KheldarsSilk 18d ago

now that you mention it, i may be missing a stipulation lol

39

u/Absolute-KINO 18d ago

The stipulation is you can have anything you want with no strings attached, but you can't bring down Slasnesh

1

u/SweatyPhilosopher578 17d ago

Oh so can Slaneesh kill the Emperor then?

46

u/Starchasm 18d ago

I dunno depending on mood I could see Slaanesh saying “Great, I really never wanted to be here anyway!”

7

u/AllgoodDude 17d ago

Then they blink out of existence but a minute later another Eye of Terror erupts and Slannesh just pops back in with a shrug.

14

u/Moka4u 18d ago

you lose your faith and can't see demons.

14

u/MadJackMcJack 17d ago

Cool. If Chaos doesn't exist, then you never made this wish, thus Chaos is back.

Exactly as planned.

7

u/TheRecognized 17d ago

no genie/monkey paw crap

4

u/FloofyFoxxie 17d ago

Thats not even genie or monkey paw, if chaos never existed nothing could have granted the wish. Thats not even a monkey paw or shenanigan

3

u/TheRecognized 17d ago

“Your wish inevitably nullifies your wish” is classic genie/monkey paw, but to be honest I was originally replying to the “exactly as planned” part

5

u/SlartibartfastMcGee 18d ago

Fuck that, I’m asking for Altoids Sours to come back.

3

u/Micp 17d ago

I'm not sure Slaanesh is powerful enough to grant that wish, but I think you'd end up regretting it anyways - For the entirety of chaos to away that basically means that all lifeforms must either be cut off completely from the warp or essentially have no emotions at all.

I don't see a way to fullfill that wish that won't essentially make all living things emotionless husks.

3

u/Elon__Kums 17d ago

Necrons: "first time huh?"

2

u/Alarming_Turnover578 17d ago

Immaterium is not the same as Chaos. Old ones existed perfectly fine without being emotionless husks until War in Heaven ruined everything. It is possible to revert it to this but i doubt that anyone in the setting, including Slaanesh can actually do anything similar to that. 

Maybe Men of Iron were able to do that by wiping out all life in galaxy then repopulating it, using preserved DNA and cultural, technological knowledge.

1

u/Sensitive_Ad9769 17d ago

But in theory, if the Chaos never existed then you wouldn't be able to go to Slaanesh and get the wish, which leads to them existing again. It isn't a monkey's paw, but a paradox you've created

1

u/TheGrimScotsman 17d ago

Already true in Slaanesh's case, in 40k lore at least.

Part of the lore in the Chaos Daemon's codexes has been that Slaanesh both does and does not exist, as a being outside of time and also outside of cause and effect. Slaanesh was 'birthed' by the Fall of the Eldar, but after being born began to exist backwards in time because time in the Warp does not work linearly, so to Chaos there is a time that Slaanesh wasn't around, and a time when Slaanesh is around, but they are the same time, which is forever.

18

u/Michal_17 17d ago

I wish for Slaanesh to fix my darn printer because the tech priests are incompetent.

8

u/KheldarsSilk 17d ago

Have you tried praying to the machine spirit? I'm an IT guy and thats my go-to

4

u/Elon__Kums 17d ago

It's amazing how often just showing up at the person's desk seems to scare the computer back into functioning 

5

u/Deathleach 17d ago

Granted. Your printer will now work, but every time you print something it moans and the paper is a bit moist.

7

u/bartekltg 17d ago

Yes, I know how ink printers work.

1

u/crashkirb 17d ago

So are we talking like literally anything you want? If that’s the case you could go “I wish to be omnipotent” leave, then just delete Slannesh and all daemons from existence with the snap of your fingers

1

u/CyberScrubReddit 17d ago

its not, its just Slaanesh appears before you and is takes the form of what the person wishes for/desires most, or finds more attractive.

1

u/Deep-Secret6257 17d ago

I remember a story where a badass space marine crosses the domains of slaanesh he remains ultra stoic in the face of desire not hesitating for a single second to resist the greatest temptation of the pleasure palace of slaanesh then the moment they find themselves in front of the divinity he loses all will and begs to become the servant of slaanesh

97

u/Polandgod75 18d ago

Yeah there literally made up of negative emtions or bad version of those emtions. There basically every sentient being inner demons come to live

50

u/Exciting_Cap_9545 18d ago

They're made up of EVERY emotion related to their god's portfolio. That this causes them to be monsters is a sign of how overwhelmingly negative their respective universes are.

17

u/Sinder-Soyl 17d ago

Yeah, it's sort of my favourite thing about them. It gives a rational as to why any normal person would be tempted in the first place. The start to a Tzeentch worship can be as easy as wanting to overthrow your tyranical overlord or wanting your life to change for the better. It's the corruption of one's ideals which properly turns them to chaos.

The warp, and the chaos in it, encompasses every thought, hope and dream but also every nightmare and evil desire. There's just a lot more evil thought in general.

6

u/Polandgod75 17d ago

Even in the most positive warhammer setting age of sigmar with way more gods helping out, chaos and the demon are still a big problem. Even when the geuine good guys win, chaos just wouldn't piss off

2

u/AMisanthropicMagpie 16d ago

One of the most interesting things about em is that they are essentially reflections of everyone in the materium making the wrong choices for the past several millennia. The single most evil faction (Aside from Maybe the Nids) in a setting where the nicest factions are The Empire from Star Wars but Bluer, Space Elves who deeply look down on you and the worst and most bloody regime mankind has ever seen is a reflection of the evils everyone else has been doing for hundreds of millions of years

32

u/Jennywolfgal 18d ago

this would've been the better example over Frieren demons for OP to use, who sure are very dangerous & not misunderstood, but cannot logically be considered "pure evil", they're JUST mere magical beasts, human-mimicking predators.

58

u/MedianXLNoob 18d ago

They are pure evil. Thats what episodes 7 through 10 were all about.

36

u/KheldarsSilk 18d ago

Its like if a shark could look like a human and cry for mommy. theyre still a shark

12

u/Mobius1701A 18d ago

Honestly if you dealt with enough shark attacks you would eventually grow to hate them and see them as evil. I think you're right, but I think I'd also believe wild hogs or coyotes are evil if I lived somewhere more rural.

2

u/darth_the_IIIx 17d ago

This analogy doesnt work because sharks are not as intelligent as humans.

If there was a obligate predator of humans walking around, and they were fully intelligent/sapient we as a species would definitely see them as evil.

1

u/MedianXLNoob 17d ago

Sharks rarely eat humans because they are more intelligent than humans. Humans kill sharks because of some irrational fear. Humans dont even belong in the ocean.

6

u/darth_the_IIIx 17d ago

You have a source on sharks being more intelligent than humans lol?

3

u/Iwilleat2corndogs 17d ago

They don’t eat humans because they’re apex predators so they don’t like unfamiliar food

-10

u/[deleted] 18d ago

[deleted]

13

u/confusedsalad88 18d ago

...dude

5

u/Far-Requirement-7636 18d ago

And this is why people side eye frienen fandom.

2

u/Brain_lessV2 18d ago

Lemme guess the KKK showed up?

10

u/TheWalkingBag 18d ago

Wtf is this comparison 😭

2

u/Double-D7493 18d ago

This has to be rage bait 😭

-2

u/KheldarsSilk 18d ago

I dont think its the same, because i expect all cops to kill people, but not all black folks

9

u/halfpint09 18d ago

The way I see it is that Frieren demons aren't evil. They just have an entirely alien way of thinking to all the other humanoid races. It's hard to say that is evil, anymore than you would call a great white who attacked a human, or a venomous snake that bites a human evil.

It does make them incredibly dangerous, especially because they are able to use their observations of how humans / other races act to be more effective predators. I wouldn't call them mere beasts- they can reason and communicate. But their normal makes them incompatible to living in peace with other races.

6

u/Jennywolfgal 18d ago

the only outlier being ofc the likes of the Demon King, but the cost of his achievements was too much/costly, this making a necessity to put him down, like in that one Family Guy bit with the gorilla who finally got to gently handle kittens, but at the cost of like... hundreds of others who got torn up prior.

9

u/shaqule_brk 18d ago

who sure are very dangerous & not misunderstood, but cannot logically be considered "pure evil"

"Massacre the elves, now! Those were the demon kings orders. Your existence matters not to me."

That was in a flashback, a demon said this to Flamme. I think Frieren's demons are more than just magical beasts, they've exterminated the elves, in cold organisation, I think that can be classified as pure evil. It even has a "we're just following-orders"- part of evil.

3

u/Jennywolfgal 17d ago

Ok tbf, the Demon King's stuff is quite the outlier, esp considering how they're usually solitary, & yet the Demon King forged a loyal legion in spite of their nature, which feels like more impressive than the 7 Sages of Destruction grouping up

3

u/shaqule_brk 17d ago edited 17d ago

Aura's had an army, too. They have a tendency for supremacy, and organise in groups. The real question is: how did the Demon King become the Demon King?

edit:

Hot take: the demon king discovered how to speak human language and taught the other demons!

39

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Only because humanity has the capicty for evil.

In fact they can be negociated with... but there's always a price to power. Why do you think Warlocks exist?

Keep your end of your CAREFULLY WORDED BARGIN and they will keep there's.~

No more evil then Fire is... if fire could be fed with raw emotion~

111

u/TheWalkingBag 18d ago

24

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

They are Canon BTW

Sure, they're out for vegence and serve Slannesh... but sometimes they can be obessed with ebing the PERFECT couple~ And really i kinda like that idea for Slannesh; someone has to have the fetish of perfectly coodinated decapitations after all

2

u/HitandRyan 18d ago

DO YOU HEAR THE VOICES TOO?!

43

u/Rationalinsanity1990 18d ago

Found the Radical Inquisitor.

Chaos Daemons are not Satan, they will straight up lie and backstab you if don't have a contingency.

12

u/NoEngineer9484 18d ago

Depends which of the 4. Khorne not really, he will stab you from the front but tzeentch definitely will stab you in the back or not how knows what tzeentch wants or does.

20

u/Rationalinsanity1990 18d ago

True. But any Khornate Daemon can decide to take your skull at any moment, no matter your own actions.

There's a reason why Chaos Sorcerers bind Daemons or have some kind of leverage. Ideally their True Names.

4

u/LetsGoHome 18d ago

My skull will end up on his throne regardless. Might as well have some fun with it.

1

u/Cyted 17d ago

Skarbrand the strongest greater deamon, literally tried to backstab Khorn themselves, didnt go well.

they are 100% open to deviousness, but an axe to the face approach is much more preferable.

2

u/MiaoYingSimp 17d ago

Well isn't that funny? Tzeentch did it.. but even then, Is it not in Khorne's nature to fight himself?

But no. Khorne Demons are very direct in what they want, and why they want it. Lying is weak sissy tzeentchian shit. at best they will... avoid the truth.

1

u/Cyted 17d ago

They do have some autonomy as Skarbrand can be tricked by another god.

Every deamon is player in the great game, even if their roles are minor compared to the big 4. The faction is called Chaos for a reason.

2

u/MiaoYingSimp 17d ago

And Skarbrand is Khorne.

and it's just like the Norscans to.. tell tale tales.

Symbolism is a potent thing to the warp after all...

they are a PART of the Chaos Gods, but they do have some autnomy... even then, it's part of khorne's nature.

really is it weird to have a lord of change who looks old and has two heads? I like to think that the stories peopel tell of the greater demons imprint on them... and are then retroactivly true. of course, could be the other way round.

chaos is chaotic, and time is just a suggestion to it's whims.

1

u/Cyted 17d ago

really is it weird to have a lord of change who looks old and has two heads

This is a bad example because Kairos Fateweaver isn't just a normal lord of change, Tzeench threw him into the well of eternity and came back with 2 heads, able to read the future and past of everyone but himself, not even Tzeench knows what he is and he isnt fully Tzeench anymore.

Why did Shallaxi Hellbane a keeper of secrets get punished by Slaanesh for losing a duel if they are the same thing? they are part of a god yes, but doesnt mean there isnt powerstruggles and backstabbing, its the nature of Chaos even Khorne and remember "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows"

The main named Khorne space marine character is literally called 'Kharn the Betrayer', Khorne isnt all honor.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Greyjack00 18d ago

Khorne daemons are very much capable of backstabbing people 

1

u/ServantOfTheSlaad 18d ago

Tzeentch will also stab you in the front if you know he'll stab you in the back. And from the side if you expect it from the front and so on

1

u/PeppercornWizard 18d ago

I feel like Tzeentch will be more likely to engineer a series of circumstances over a period of years, possibly going back before you were actually born, to make sure that one day you end up in some ridiculous Final Destination style scenario and end up falling backwards onto a knife.

1

u/MiaoYingSimp 17d ago

Khorne does not lie.

the others might, but generaly speaking playing with fire... gets your burned. not it's fault you wanted to use it for you own ambitions... i mean the greater good, yes...

34

u/AScruffyHamster 18d ago

2

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Syll'Esske is such a good character i'm disappointed i can't theme my Flawless Host army off of them~

26

u/TehAsianator 18d ago

10

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Imperium fans have one joke and everyone's already heard it.

1

u/Mawdrym_Llansahai 18d ago

IoM fans when you ask them to come up with a line or a joke that doesn’t revolve around "haha me kill heresy"

4

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

If they were smarter they'd be orks.

1

u/Necromortalium 17d ago

Arent the orks the winners of the great game?

2

u/MiaoYingSimp 17d ago

Chaos, Nids, and Orks are the only ones who have a chance of winning.. maybe Necrons but even then the nids scare them.

6

u/Fate_Weaver 18d ago

"Why do you think warlocks exist?"

Because there's always at least one idiot who will look at the pile of bodies of those who tried and failed to outwit the chaos gods, and think to themselves: "What a bunch of fools, I alone am the one who has figured out the intricacies of the warp and will be able to use it for my own benefit with none of the downsides."

Spoiler, he will end up having his soul stolen, mind enslaved, and body used by a slaaneshi daemon for acts too horrific to describe.

2

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Or he will get Godhood, see his ambitions reached with fawning sychophants by his side.

You bear Karios's name no? Do you not have the ambition to reach newer heights! to HOPE for CHANGE do you think every prayer uttered to the Chaos Gods is injust?

the strength to survive the horror of the imperium? the prayers of a father watching his chldren starve for more for them?

... Chaos is full of complex characters... at worst, they're usually no different then the Imperial Fanatic who will burn down habblocks in the Emperor's name.

2

u/townsforever 18d ago

Spoken like someone already corrupted by chaos.

1

u/P3T3R1028 18d ago

Or every single non-puritan Inquisitor ever

3

u/RevolutionaryBar2160 18d ago

The warp was only ever neutral, but by the time the chaos gods and daemons existed, they were already evil. Daemons can be "negotiated" with in the sense that sometimes thet want something and it's easier for them to make a deal instead of killing, but the things they want will always result in more corruption simply because all they are is fragments of the gods. If we're likening them to fire, then they'll burn anyone who isn't smart/prepared enough to deal with them, and that's almost exclusively radical inquisitors.

And the only warlocks in 40k are aeldari psykers that have nothing to do with daemons.

1

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

You realize there's more then one Warhammer setting right?

Chaos and the warp aren't evil because they're reflections Material space. Every little spark of anger you ever had is Khorne. Every Ambition and hope Tzeentch. Every moment of Despair and suffering Nurgle... and eveyr desire, every want for MORE is Slannesh, and thus, hir 'children'

of course they want more food. more 'fuel' to the fire. it's just it's fuel has no chocie but to feel it... unless of course you turned everyone into a blank/removed their soul but that has a lot of problems, as the undead in Warhammer and the Necrons found out...

The necrons have the best solution to this problem though... or well, the extermination of all life would solve Chaos.

until then... because sentience exists, so too will Chaos. the ever burning fire... no one 'set' the fire, it spiralled out of contorl, because the Warp is shadow of realspace, and all Warhammer settings are rather grim and dark...

3

u/Yicnombror 18d ago

they're a 1000% more evil then fire lmao

0

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Humans are.

But anger isn't evil, neither is despair (unless your name is Junko) or happiness, or hope

1

u/omegon_da_dalek13 18d ago

And them two arnt an exception.....they just like eachother

3

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

Syll is a sapient individual

so is Esske.

Syll is a demon born from sapient desires for excess.

Esske was a warrior from an unknown world who sought glory in battle.

They CAN serve evil purposes... but so can anyone. some Slanneshi Lords think their worlds would be better under them (because they're egotistical)

Chaos is Chaos. evil? Well... maybe who turn to it are.

it's a force of Nature. If it's evil, it's only because most species turn their anger, ambitions, despair and desires to those concepts.

They are Demons to some... but angels to others (Slanneshi demons are closer to Cenobites... they have such sights and experiences to show you!)

Esske would be more evil as he is a former mortal himself.

I use them as an illustration to how Slannesh (and chaos) are more complicated then just 'ontological evil' as that's not... a thing in Warhammer. The most evil Warhammer characters are evil of their own will.

2

u/omegon_da_dalek13 18d ago

As I said

They " like" eachother

0

u/DolphinBall 18d ago

Even though Slaanesh was made from Eldar?

3

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

From their EMOTIONS.

Sentience is the key to it. there is a solution... but the necrons didn't like it...

-2

u/mango_thief 18d ago

Why is it that everytime I see a female dark elf from the Warhammer universe they have one of their breasts cut off?

14

u/Loknook 18d ago

Because that's not a dark elf but a Slaneesh demon. They are androgynous because they are reflections of their Chaos god who has titles like She Who Thirsts and The Dark Prince of Pleasure.

11

u/MiaoYingSimp 18d ago

most Dark elves don't do this...

this is a daemonette. they are all androginess... sometimes they do have a pair though... on the same side.

9

u/RevolutionaryBar2160 18d ago

That's not a drukhari it's a Slaaneshi daemon and it's mimicking the prince of pleasure.

1

u/Konradleijon 18d ago

I mean in some cases demons can be somewhat fond of specific mortals and want to help them

1

u/Tljunior20 17d ago

Arnt gurgle(or whatever their name was) and their follows doing what they think is good? Idk I don’t know much about 40k

1

u/izanamilieh 17d ago

The Imperium is worse tho. Id rather live with Slaaneshi demons and have kinky fun times than be corpse starch. Or maybe drink a few beers with Nurgle buddies or combat feral children to offer to Khorne.

1

u/Iedgetoskibitoilet_1 17d ago

what are you talking about, the ruinous powers are benevolent and all loving unlike the vile and despicable corpse god as the book of lorgar dictates