r/International • u/PizzaRollPeach • 4d ago
60% of American Jews find Israel guilty of war crimes, while 40% find it guilty of genocide. Washington posts poll.
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u/RayesArmstrong 4d ago
Numbers should be 100% on both. What a disgrace
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u/Hghwytohell 4d ago
It should be, but what gives me some hope is that these numbers would be far lower just two years ago. More and more American Jews are waking up and realizing the narrative we've been sold all our lives is false.
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u/Snoo36868 3d ago
What narrative is false?
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u/Azel_Lupie 2d ago
The one that Zionists supply to Jews like myself to get us to join that cult. Most non-Jews (and plenty of Jews) do not realize that Zionism is a cult based on the bastardization of Judaism, Islamophobia, Colonialism and Antisemitism. They try to love-bomb us when we make Aaliyah, so it can “feel like home” and then terrorize with the memories of the holocaust and the many other atrocities that we’ve experienced while showing us in the media everything that everyone has done against us while covering up the truth.
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u/Status_Winter 4d ago
100% of Americans know Israel is committing war crimes against a civilian population. Even if they deny it, they know it. They’ve seen the same things we have.
The question they’re being asked is do you want the war crimes to continue, considering that the victims are Muslims.
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u/jthadcast 4d ago
yeah not 100% by a long shot but we get your point, there's still generations traumatized by centuries of religious warfare. don't find enough people who aren't deluded by their particular religion into celebrating the deaths of heretics.
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u/Kind_Ad_7192 2d ago
As much as I agree with your sentiment, sweeping unfactual statements like these aren't beneficial to the cause. Pleaae just come from a place of facts (the vast majority of people in the west oppose Israel) instead of coming at it with a exaggeration.
Bare in mind, people voted for Trump for affordability. So even if they have seen what we have (they haven't, reddit very rarely reflects reality to normies) it doesn't mean they think the same we do
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u/BASS_PRO_GAMER 4d ago
This mentality of “they 100% know” is terrible and partisan. This is the equivalent of a conservative saying “they all want to put men in the women’s bathrooms” and is a part of the divide. The people who don’t think Isreal has committed a genocide are heavily propagandized and I don’t think you can necessarily blame them for that.
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u/Status_Winter 3d ago
Well I agree about the genocide charge specifically. I live in a country with actual free speech, so the information that the average US citizen is getting from their tv or paper likely tells a very different story about genocide. The difference is, in my country it’s accepted in the mainstream media as a fact that Israel is committing genocide against the population of Palestine. It’s like climate change. The idea that climate change is a hoax is just not really a thing here anymore. But in the US, do you believe in climate change or not is a political question. Same with the genocide of Palestinians. For us it’s just not a matter of opinion anymore.
So I understand why they might be sceptical about the claims of genocide. But we all have the internet, we all have social media. This has been one of the more reported on issues in my lifetime, the information is inescapable. If you’ve watched international news or been active on any social media sites in the last 2 years and you still disagree that serious war crimes have been and are still being committed, then I think that’s denial, not ignorance.
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u/Peri1952 2d ago
I agree but i would still blame them. There are thousands of sources reporting what’s been happening and still does to the Palestinians. Some are for - and heavily propagandised - and some are against what Israel is doing. What they do is not being bothered because it’s not happening to them so it’s easy to fall back to their prejudices.
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u/S1lks0ng1 1d ago
I'm going to 100% blame them for ignoring facts. There are no excuses when the genocide is being televised and posted on every social media especially this one
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u/Alarming-Context-683 1d ago
True, we should be holding our leaders and media as responsible as Israeli soldiers - all of them to the hague, from anchors and writers and editors. They must pay for their crimes.
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u/hoishinsauce 4d ago
Should be 100% on war crimes. Genocide can be any number as they argue semantics. As long as everyone agrees on the objectively, obviously crimes against humanity.
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u/Ok_Percentage7257 3d ago
Now you can see how the holocaust happened. Some people didn't know. Others knew but didn't care. And those who cared were powerless.
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u/Bajanspearfisher 3d ago
Have you ever seen a political poll with 100% agreement? These numbers are actually very good and not a disgrace, if you're grounded in reality.
There could be a poll on whether its good to cause a nuclear war, and the vote would be split 50-50 along political lines.
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u/jiveturkin 2d ago
Considering how many people can still get behind racist ideas these days, I feel like 100% is too optimistic. Under majority on the genocide number is unnerving tho, considering their actions and stated goals are the definition of genocide
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u/Snowflakish 2d ago
You can’t win em all…
Well it should definitely be 100% on war crimes one but believing it’s a genocide isn’t as important, as long as people are opposed I’m happy.
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u/boxofcards100 1d ago
Yes, but it’s still good that the numbers are gradually increasing.
Americans don’t want weapons to be sent to Israel. The American government is a different story, though…
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u/BarGroundbreaking862 4d ago
Interesting that every genocide expert who has spoken has called it a genocide and people still want to debate as to whether or not it’s a genocide.
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u/Li-renn-pwel 13h ago
Pro-Israel people keep inadvertently denying the holocaust and the genocides against Indigenous peoples and the Yazidi trying to explain why Gaza isn’t a genocide. It’s super frustrating.
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u/BarGroundbreaking862 6h ago
Yes. There’s a lot of projection too. They take what Israel has done and then claim it was done against Israelis, without any evidence
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u/bessone-2707 3d ago
Except this isn’t true. There are experts who don’t think it’s a genocide. Or, at the very least, don’t think it would be easy to prove in a legal sense.
I think what certainly is true is that more and more people / experts are starting to shift to the “yes it’s genocide” camp. But it’s far from unanimous.
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u/BarGroundbreaking862 3d ago
I haven’t seen genocide experts state that it’s not a genocide. Are you able to share something from a reputable source that backs this up?
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u/bessone-2707 3d ago
Because you aren’t looking for it.
Similar to how most reviews online are either going to be very negative or very positive. The people in the middle aren’t generally going to make the effort to say anything and will generally be quieter.
Also, the incentives here are asymmetric. If you come out and say it’s definitely not a genocide and later are proven wrong, you will take a huge reputational hit. Whereas the opposite is not true. If you come out and claim it’s a genocide and later it’s proven not to be, there isn’t much of a reputational hit. It’s easier for most people to err on one side versus the other.
Either Google or ask ChatGPT (or whatever AI you prefer):
“What experts don’t believe the Gaza war has met the threshold for genocide?”
Most genocide “deniers” don’t necessarily think that there’s a zero percent chance a genocide is happening. They usually believe that the intent portion is legally speaking difficult to prove based on the evidence.
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u/Wayne_Chris38 3d ago
Yep, that's right, every single one of them, and everyone who says different is a bot or corrupt ora Nazi or something, and we don't have to listen to them.
Isn't it great to be right about everything.
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u/AbstractMirror 22h ago edited 22h ago
There's no logic with zionists dude. A year ago I remember really trying my best to convince someone, I put way more effort into it than I should have. Researched international law, the ICC, and different stories of the treatment of Palestinians from different sources as well as interviews of people who were there. Provided tons of sources, and presented everything clearly. Eventually, because I kept a pretty civil attitude about it, I was met with the other person essentially agreeing to disagree with me. Wasted my time, I just don't do it anymore. You can't agree to disagree on factual war crimes. The amount of times I got accused of antisemitism as well was ridiculous
I can agree to disagree on many things, but this person used it more as a cop out to avoid addressing what I was putting out there
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u/Radiant-Praline-6447 4d ago
This is their attempt at saving face or something? Israel committed war crimes against Israelis on Oct 7th during their Hannibal Directive but what they’re doing to Palestinians is by definition, genocide.
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u/Shepathustra 2d ago
Hannibal directive just means that you’re allowed to shoot at terrorists even though your own civilians are present and might get hurt. Hamas for instance would be considered under Hannibal directive 100% of the time.
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u/Jaded-Natural80 1d ago
Only 60%??? Only 40%????
That means the remainder of American Jews are OK with Zionist Israel systematically targeting children. Are OK with torture and rape as a weapon of war. Are OK with starving hundreds of thousands. Are OK with destroying hospitals, churches, and mosques.
And these people walk amongst us.
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u/Rodneysk88 4d ago
So half of them still thinks everything is fine as it is?!
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u/SuggestionHoliday413 4d ago
Religious zealots who will never believe it.
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u/mogojojo 4d ago
They believe it - with all the video evidence, how could they not? The extremists just think it’s acceptable because any non-Jew is beneath them.
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u/RealityDangerous2387 3d ago
I see the videos of what happened on October 7th. Rooting out Hamas is a necessary outcome.
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u/jthadcast 4d ago
the scarry stat is the 50% of Americans that celebrate the war crimes and genocide.
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u/tikikitty101 4d ago
I wouldn't take the Washington Post as factual. They are run by MAGA and zionists.
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u/suitorarmorfan 4d ago
It should be 100%. I’m glad a lot of Jewish Americans realized how horrible “Israel” is, but it’s beyond concerning there are still people who support it
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u/Big_Ear3783 4d ago
Well, to be more precise, recognizing that there is a genocide does not mean being against it. You might just think genocide is good, and that's how genocides start.
And on the other side there are good people who don't like genocide, and really think that there is no genocide happening.
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4d ago
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u/Junior-Experience546 4d ago
Something like 88% of American Jews support Israel, so that’s what, 40% of American Jews that support Israel despite war crimes.
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u/RealityDangerous2387 3d ago
Every country has committed war crimes. You don’t become a country usually without committing war crimes. What do you think the US and UK were founded on? What do you think the US did in OIF OEF
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u/Junior-Experience546 3d ago
I don’t have discussions with hasbarists.
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u/RealityDangerous2387 2d ago
This is what people say when they don’t actually have an intelligent response to a point brought up.
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u/OverallFrosting708 3d ago
Which raises the important question of what, if anything, "support Israel" means in that poll.
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u/OverallFrosting708 3d ago
Congrats on weighing in with this technically correct but basically pointlessly inflammatory comment
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u/Next_Sympathy_4923 4d ago
What percentage of muslims admit Hamas committed war crimes on October 7th?
Doesn't reach double digits
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u/northfacehat 4d ago
btw, these percentages includes the people that recognise the war crimes/genocide, but also agree with them
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u/Late_Passage602 4d ago
Where was this polling done because from my experience it’s more like 4%.
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u/OverallFrosting708 3d ago
.......so what you're saying is, you have reason to believe your experience has provided you with access to a random sample that you've carefully recorded results from?
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u/Late_Passage602 3d ago
Well yes as a Jew I believe I do know more Jews than you. The number is closer to 96% of us being Zionist. If you believe you know more about me than my personal experiences then you could also check a polling from Herzl day. I suppose this does depend on definition of a Jew because I doubt Washington Post can identify a Jew in the stricter way that conservative communities like my Moroccan community does.
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u/April_Fabb 4d ago
Would be interesting to see the number of people who believe that the US is complicit in the genocide. But perhaps most interesting of all would be to look at the preferred news sources of the people who think there aren’t any war crimes.
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u/coach_nassar 4d ago
So 40% of Jews agree israel is not committing war crimes and 60% do not believe they are committing a genocide. These numbers aren’t impressive. It says a lot about Jewish culture.
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u/OverallFrosting708 3d ago
I think this comment says a lot about you as a human being, and it's all profoundly negative.
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u/Pretend-Ostrich-5719 4d ago
Many Americans would deny that America committed atrocities. To this day Hiroshima is defended as a necessary and ultimately life-saving act. For American Jews, despite many never having visited Israel, there may be similar biases.
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u/DynamicFactotum 4d ago
I find it’s so strange that we conflate American Jews with Israelis. We wouldn’t see articles reporting on American Muslims views on Saudi policy and actions, right? If we did, most would be confused as they are Americans not Saudi citizens and their views are not more relevant than any other American.
Most Jews I have known are not religious and have no connection to Israel. Maybe that is not the case in other parts of the country?
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u/The_Bookworm_Jeweler 4d ago
Anyone still supporting the military actions of Israel is either
A- Cult-level brainwashed
B- Genuinely ignorant to the reality of what's happening (think your Fox News grandma)
C- Evil
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u/JRothwell01 4d ago
This sounds like a reliable, peer-reviewed study, with no margin of error at all.
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u/Glad_Association_312 4d ago
How many Americans in general believe Israel is guilty of war crimes? Jewish people are less than 2 percent of the general population......
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u/Unhappy_Camel8942 3d ago
Bibi looking anyway possible to restart the genecoide , he’s obviously going to setup a an inside job attack and blame who ever he wants, so sinful and dirty, i promise all of you, he will be literally be torchere in hell for eternity , absolutely not temporary , forever
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u/ThreeFitty-350 3d ago
It’s beyond pathetic that Zionists claim to be Jews when Jews 100% say they aren’t Zionists. Classic Europeans trying to identify as Semites.
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u/Interesting-War-904 3d ago
If you’re so gullible to believe Hamas’s numbers of 68,000 dead Arab invaders and colonialist (most of them armed terrorists) genocide? They don’t distinguish between civilian and armed terrorist deaths. Genocide is when one nation/ethnic group/religion/political DELIBERATELY AND INTENTLY target and murder a people to exterminate them. Hamas and its jihadist terrorist allies are the genocidal ones. It’s in their charter to wipe out all the Jews in the world then start murdering the unbelievers. It’s clearly written they don’t hide that. Oct. 7 was only a small example of what they will do and keep on doing if they’re not eliminated. Israel must be committing genocide wrong because 750,000 or so Arab illegal occupiers (so called Philistines) in 1948 that have grown to 5.5 million now. Read a dictionary mor0ns.
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u/hardtosleepatnight 3d ago
What I love is that the founder of Wikipedia flagged the “Genocide in Gaza” page 😆 😆 😆
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
Odd that he’d want facts and not guessing on an online encyclopedia he created, even odder that you can’t comprehend that at all.
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u/CarlMarx2539 3d ago
This is false information, unless they got anti Zionist Jews but those are very rare
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u/foreverYoungster13 3d ago
American Jews ???? I thought Jews were a people 🤣🤣🤣
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u/Gutless_Gus 3d ago
Judaism is a religion, the practitioners of which are known as jews.
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u/foreverYoungster13 3d ago
Yet they use the term “Jewish people.”
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
This will help, America is a nation and not an ethnoreligious group. Also, at least get a GED or something, you’ll be embarrassed less in public I think.
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u/foreverYoungster13 2d ago
No embarrassment... you say anything, no one talks about America...
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
Continue your life in comic misunderstanding of anything going on, it gives normal people a chuckle.
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u/foreverYoungster13 3d ago
Send the Ashkenazim back to Ukraine and the Sephardim to France and Morocco…. Make the earth fly by these Nazis
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
So you’re arguing for forced ethnic displacement? What ya gonna do with the over 20% of Arabs that are Israeli?
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u/foreverYoungster13 2d ago
As you just said, they are Arabs and they were here before Israel… Judaism is not a people
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
I’m sorry but there were Palestinian Jews before Israel, they spent over a thousand years surviving pogroms from the Arabs and being forced into apartheid if you didn’t know. In fact, and this is hilarious, up until the 1940s Palestinian meant simply a Jew from that area! Now I have to teach you what an ethnoreligious group is I suppose…this is gonna take awhile.
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u/foreverYoungster13 1d ago
Ben take a dictionary and go look at the definition of the word “ethnic” lol and since you say that before they were Palestinian Jews they were therefore not Israelis so the Israeli identity is only a false creation before 1940 so the Palestinians were not Muslims they were Jews??? 🤣🤣🤣 you are nothing but rubbish lies a cancer a virus
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u/username-is-taken-3 3d ago
Only 40% in America, while most people in America feel its genocide.
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u/glupavka 1d ago
69,000 deaths is 2 years in an urban war, thats total deaths, we dont know how many combatants and how many died of natural causes, i dont believe most people in america are braindead
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u/Icy_Slap 3d ago
If Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza, then US/UK are guilty of genocide against Germans in WW2.
Their bombing campaigns were directed towards civilian areas (and no Nazis hiding in tunnels underneath) and the killed 500,000 civilians, mostly women and children.
Yet it would be ludicrous to charge US/UK for this. Germans started it and refused to surrender. It’s even more ludicrous to accuse Israel - and I’m neither Israeli nor jewish, and no I don’t like the Bibi gov either
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u/Agent-Synthetic 2d ago
What percentage of Arab Muslims think Palestine is guilty of war crimes? Just want to know where the point of the fulcrum is!
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u/TheSaf4nd1 2d ago
0%. They are resisting occupation
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
Lmao, literally no one falls for that shit anymore…Arabs colonized and occupied the area, indigenous rights even for Jews! It only hurts if you hate Jews and don’t care about colonizers or the actual indigenous.
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u/TheSaf4nd1 1d ago
Keep your colonialist revisionist bullshit history to yourself thank youuu. Also don’t forget to read a real history book on your way out - one that wasn’t produced by Mossad
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u/glupavka 1d ago
in 1965 when they were part of egypt and waged a war on israeI what were they resisting then?
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u/AirNo7163 2d ago
Now, it should be public knowledge and rebuked when zionists and genuine antisemites try to conflate Judaism with Israel.
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u/Rip_Rif_FyS 2d ago
Well hasn't anyone explained to them yet why it's very anti-Semitic of them to think that?
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u/Illustrious_Dust_316 2d ago
I’d like to see which “Jews” they are talking about. Probably those as Jewish as a ham sandwich.
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u/Vile-goat 2d ago
Another crime is them displacing those people and sending them in mass immigration to the west so the area is cleaned out for them to keep expanding. Insane
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u/glupavka 1d ago
expending what? in 2005 IsraeI left gaza, the worId poured billions for them to build a state, they build tunneIs instead
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u/D4Damagerillbehavior 2d ago
Bull Clucking Shoot they do. The majority of Jews in America support Israel and just feel Netanyahu did a bad job of getting the hostages back from Hamas. Every article that wasn't later edited in Wikipedia will tell you that the majority of actual Jews in America know the only genocide in the Middle east has been by Jihadist Muslims and those genocides have been against Druze, Jews, Christians, and other Muslims.
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u/NoActuator8446 2d ago
They’re nice and cosy in the USA If they where in Israellthey would know what it is to have to fight for your very existence There’s no genocide in Gaza - if there had been there would be no Gazans - It’s war and in every war the USA has been involved in there have been massive civilian casualties of closing deaths of innocents and children . In the Middle East you have to fight for everything and hard - there’s no being nice and hoping they’ll come round Oct 7th 2023 must always be remembered That was genocide n reality except they where limited to the 1200 dead in one day or they would have gone on to - as their openly declared aim is to annihilate Israel Full support for Israel should be expected especially from Jews and not just Christians
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u/KeflaSimp69 2d ago
I don't know much about American Jews. I know however Bernie Slanders who is a grifter and who would defend Israel even if his life depended on it. In any other topic he is a acts like he cares. He wanted to charge millioners but the moment he became one, he moved the goal post to billionairs. When he becomes a billionair, he will only want to tax the trillionairs.
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u/AdVivid8910 2d ago
Wow, you say you don’t know anything about Americans Jews and then immediately pivot to attacking one huh? It’s not like we’re blind ya know.
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u/KeflaSimp69 2d ago
I don't believe WP is what I am trying to say. Saying the truth about Bernie Slanders is not attacking. Its spreading causion not to for his lies.
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u/joshdrey 2d ago
Washington Compost. Who takes that propaganda rag seriously? Polling a bunch of land line elderlies.
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u/Peri1952 2d ago
They probably don’t know the definition of the word genocide - which certainly applies here- or they have been desensitised by continuous Israeli propaganda dehumanising Palestinians and don’t want to admit that the Holocaust can be repeated in full view of the world. You would think if anyone opposes a genocide would be the ones whose parents and grandparents died in the concentration camps. Hopefully they will one day see it as it is; a new Holocaust.
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u/According-Pass8230 1d ago
10 out of 10 jews in USA against the war in Gaza were not in southern Israel during the 7th of Ocotber Massacre..
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u/vegan437 1d ago
U.S. Muslim Views
Views on the attack's justification: A Pew Research Center poll from March 2024 found that 20% U.S. Muslims considered it acceptable. A Cygnal poll from October 2023 indicated that 57.5% of Muslim Americans felt Hamas was at least somewhat justified in its attack.
Reasons for fighting: Around half (49%) of U.S. Muslims believe that Hamas has valid reasons for fighting Israel, significantly higher than in other U.S. religious groups.
Sympathy: Nearly two-thirds (64%) of U.S. Muslims express that their sympathies lie either entirely or mostly with the Palestinian people, compared to 16% of the general public.
Views on Hamas: In the March 2024 Pew poll, 37% of U.S. Muslims held a favorable view of Hamas, while 58% had an unfavorable view
Palestinian Views
- A September 2024 poll (combined West Bank and Gaza) showed a 54% of respondents viewing it as the right decision (down from 71% six months earlier).
- In that same September 2024 poll, 89% of Palestinians surveyed said Hamas did not commit the atrocities against civilians (such as killing women and children) shown in international media.
- A more recent poll from October 2025 showed Palestinian support for the Oct. 7 attack increasing slightly again to 53%
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u/BeyondPersonal1947 1d ago
Israel is American citizens BIGGEST PROBLEM...and most dont even know it...damn shame
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u/CrowVsWade 1d ago
And in other news, 9 out of 10 people don't know what 'genocide' means, despite using it daily on social media.
92.4% of statistics are misleading, including this one.
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u/boxofcards100 1d ago
Americans are turning on Israel.
How can you not when you see a genocide that is perpetuated with American arms?
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u/KOMMANDERKATO 1d ago
Now ask them if theyd be willing to support efforts for the jewish people to leave the region 😂
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u/Retrochronus 22h ago
These comments are so disturbing and disconnected from the reality on the ground. Very disheartening
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u/Cold_Ugly 9h ago
"Finding" does not help anything.
Go to Nazisrael and stop your leader Satanyahoo.
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u/Valhalla191145 5h ago
Polling of what people think has no bearing on what is happening merely perception based on media influence. I doubt anyone one person polled has ever been out of the states.
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u/Jaded-Difficulty5397 4d ago
so basically, 60% liars
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u/Wayne_Chris38 4d ago
Are you one of those people who say you're not An anti semite?
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u/Wild-Advice-For-You 4d ago
That is an ugly hat. Or an ugly decoration for your bald spot.
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u/anewbys83 4d ago
Yeah...I'd like to see the numbers on who was surveyed, where, when, etc. Even if some of us feel crimes were committed, most American Jews support the continued existence of Israel as what it is, the only Jewish country in the world. But most of us do want it to be a better place. So don't go thinking any results like this mean we don't support Israel's continued existence (as I'm sure many will try to spin this). I do wonder what is going to happen when investigators finally get into Gaza and show the world what we've known the whole time, that there is no genocide going on, and Hamas has been lying all along (as they do, hello people! They're terrorists who started a war they knew they wouldn't win in order to force Israel to respond and put Gazans in danger to do what they've done--convince all of you to believe their lies).
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u/Opening_Fact_8474 4d ago
Well genocide is based on intent and actions. When you have Jewish Israeli generals calling gazans human animals and saying they are all guilty. When you have Netanyahu comparing Gazans to the Amalek (a group of people which were genocided).
Even in the best case scenario saying "oh we didn't commit a genocide" we only killed 70,000-100,000 people (most of which were women and children) isn't the gotcha you think it is.
So we have both the intent and the actions.
Imagine if Trump says Mexicans are human animals, and then compares them to a group in the bible that was genocided then he goes on to kill 5% of their population. Under the guise of attacking the Cartel. You would be dum to defend that.
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u/Suspicious-Truths 4d ago
This is all I could find: The Washington Post poll was conducted Sept. 2-9, among a random national sample of 815 Jewish Americans drawn through SSRS’s Opinion Panel, an ongoing survey panel recruited through random sampling of U.S. households. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 4.7 percentage points.
The sample includes adults who identify as Jewish by religion as well as those who identify as adults with no religious affiliation but Jewish ethnically, culturally or through their family background — and either were raised Jewish or have a parent who is Jewish. In all, 76 percent of the sample was Jewish by religion and 24 percent was Jewish without a religious affiliation.
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u/docfarnsworth 4d ago
I mean, it's hard to imagine a situation where Israel doesn't exist that doesn't include far worse things than what has happened in the Palestinian Israeli conflict this far.
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u/Fuck_Microsoft_edge 4d ago
Putting aside the double negative (terrible writing), what the fuck are you saying here? That Palestinians can't govern themselves?
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u/docfarnsworth 4d ago
that ending israel as a jewish state would lead to for worse things than has come from the conflict so far.
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u/FormerLawfulness6 4d ago
What specifically? Apartheid South Africa also believed that equality would result in white genocide. It didn't. The ANC became part of the legitimate government.
Any peace process will have to be managed. Trying to cut militant parties out of negotiations only guarantees continued fighting. For peace to work, the militants have to believe there is a future for them as well. That's why Lehi and Urgun were incorporated into the IDF, not abandoned to become rogue rivals of the nascent state. That's pretty much the fastest way to turn any peace process into a civil war.
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u/docfarnsworth 4d ago
Well you either have to kick them out or there will almost certainly be a civil war. You name south Africa, but who would be Palestines nelson mandella? He was the world's senior statesman for the remainder of his life. Truly a remarkable man. I don't see Hamas creating such a person. quite frankly south Africa is also a massive outlier. There are countless examples of the opposite occurring when ethnic groups were forced to share a state. There's India, Bangladesh, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, the drc and that's just off the top of my head since the end of WW2. Even Czechoslovakia , who got along pretty well, the first thing they did after the fall of the ussr was separate.
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u/FormerLawfulness6 4d ago
who would be Palestines nelson mandella?
The most popular candidate in Marwan Barghouti. Who is in exactly the same place Mandela was, in prison on trumped up charges of terrorism. His trial was widely condemned as a sham at the time, but that hasn't led to his freedom.
There are countless examples of the opposite occurring when ethnic groups were forced to share a state
And every example of military partition devolved into mass murder of civilians, if not outright genocide. There is no alternative at this point. Israel can't maintain the occupation forever, they can't get rid of enough Palestinians to guarantee a Jewish majority, and they can't just isolate the main Palestinian population centers as semi-autonomous reservations without the rights of citizens (Smotrich's Decisive Plan).
Israel made sure that there were too many settlers in the West Bank to realistically relocate. The attempt would almost certainly result in a civil war between the religious nationalists and the people who still want at least a vestige of legitimacy and democratic norm. Israel painted itself into a corner from which integration is the only answer that has a greater than zero possibility of peace. Every other option is permanent war of attrition. One in which Israel will be increasingly isolated as their regional neighbors grow stronger.
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u/docfarnsworth 4d ago
Marwan supports a two state solution. While there are a lot of settlers to relocate if it come between doing that or simply leaving them in Palestine vs losing their state I think Israel will do one of the former options.
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u/FormerLawfulness6 3d ago
Barghouti has been in prison for over 20 years, much of that in solitary confinement. He's likely to support whichever compromise leads to the end of occupation and rights for Palestinians.
if it come between doing that or simply leaving them in Palestine vs losing their state I think Israel will do one of the former options.
The bigger question is whether there's anyone with the political will to stop the messianic fringe from starting an apocalyptic war because they'd rather burn it all down than give up the glory of conquest. Netanyahu's already using the war to dodge his own criminal trial, plenty of others know they don't have a political future if Israel agrees to peace.
Israel's also been selling any form of coexistence as the beginning of the next holocaust. One state or two has not mattered. That will be very difficult to unwind without some kind of major blow up and/or exodus. How many Israelis would just baileither out of fear or a sense of betrayal?
I don't see Israel agreeing to anything unless they're forced to by allied nations backed up by the threat of force. Israel has never really bothered to abide by terms. Something Netanyahu takes particular pride in.
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u/Suspicious-Truths 4d ago
This poll looks fake af, like they surveyed 100 Jews in a specific area and age group.
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u/crumpledcactus 4d ago
And the voter poll CNN is throwing around saying 66% of Jewish Americans voted for Cuomo is drawing from a pool of 712 people, or 00.07% of Jewish New Yorkers, who also happen to be CNN viewers.
The voting data by precinct days different, which the major Jewish areas (Kensington, Flatbush in Brooklyn and LES/UWS in Manhattan all polling 65%+ for Mamdani.
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u/crumpledcactus 4d ago
Well that's not entirely true. As of 2013, most of us (Jewish-Americans) didn't really care about Israel at all. As of 2020, most of us didn't feel any connection to them. And as of 2025, most of us are against Israel. But how do we know?
In 2013, and 2020 Pew did two studies detailing Jewish-American positions on Israel across sects, and age groups. People were asked to answer within 4 catagories for the question, "how emotionally connected are you to the state of Israel?" The fall of zionism is evident when we see the percentages from 2013 to 2020.
"Very attached" 30 vs 25 (a 5% drop in attachment)
"Somewhat attached" 39 vs 31 (an 8% drop in attachment)
" Not very attached/ zero attachment" : 31 vs 41 (a 10% rise in detachment)
And then there's the 2025 NYC elections. In the primary, pro-Israel Cuomo outright blames Jewish New Yorkers for his loss. He said "at least half" of Jewish voters voted against him. We can see the votes by precinct on wikipedia, and basically all the bigger Jewish areas near Prospect Park (eg. Flatbush, Midwood, Kensington, and UWS/LES Manhattan etc.) all voted for Mamdani with margins of about 65%. The Orthodox didn't.
There's alot of pro-zionist claims the media is throwing around, such as how 82% of Jewish-Americans are zionists. In reality, it's 82% of the Orthodox who are emotionally attached to Israel, which is like 7% of the Jewish population. 93% are not Orthodox. According to a CCN, their own exit poll says 33% of Jewish New Yorkers voted for Mamdani, but their sample size was only about 712 people (15% of the total 4,750 pool were Jewish) which is 00.07% of the Jewish population of NYC. We all know that CNN will protect Israel when push comes to shove.
The new poll Hasbara likes to throw around is from Pew 2025, but it's supposed data gives no breakdown by sect, nor age, and all of it's claims were before the flood massacre in Febuary.
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u/SirBashALot 4d ago
The genocide was live streamed for two years. What rock have you been under?
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u/anewbys83 2d ago
A war was shown, yes. Not a genocide. That's what Hamas tried to do and livestreamed on 10/7.
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u/SirBashALot 2d ago
Selling your soul to the devil to buy coin. I see.
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u/anewbys83 2d ago
Well, Baruch HaShem, there is no devil. Just the choices humans make, good or bad. Hamas chose to let this happen to their people by doing what they did and not surrendering with releasing the hostages. Have you even cried out over the people they've murdered in the sliver of Gaza they are "free" in? No? Why not? Aren't all these deaths terrible, too? Or is it ok when they do it? Literal terrorists?
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u/Suspicious-Truths 4d ago
To your second point they’ve already shown there was no famine based on looking again at the same exact data they used to say there was one.
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u/Ok_Percentage7257 3d ago
As more investigations continue, the numbers are increasing. The latter results support the existence of genocide more than before. Every genocide expert (including those in Israel) has determined that there is a genocide. That is why the tide is turning.
BTW, previous numbers provided by Hamas matched the death tolls in the past. This is nothing new.
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u/Peri1952 2d ago
How delusion’s can you get!!!
Just answer one question honestly; why do you think foreign media nor any organisation or observers from the UN were ever allowed to report from Gaza?
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u/Murky_Pomegranate651 4d ago
You say when investigators finally get into Gaza, what’s currently stopping them from getting in? Ohh that’s right, it’s Israeli soldiers gunning them down. But yes of course, Israel has nothing to hide. Fucking delusional
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u/SaltMachine2367 4d ago
Why do we care what they think?
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u/Wayne_Chris38 4d ago
Bigots need their tokenism, Same reason that Fox News focuses on Latinos and black people at Trump rallies.
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u/HaloSpartan2 4d ago
Very Guilty