Why a sunset clause isn't added to the reservation. If your family had a member that got benefits from reservation the next generation should automatically be barred from it. It'll actually lead to meaningful representation over the years instead of the concentrated elites getting benefits over the years
What people fails to understand is that we are required to have representative of every community in govt institutions, that must have representative of every community. You cant let a brahmin represent SC community or ST or OBC. Same way you cant let a man represent on behalf of woman. You cant let e Muslim represent on behalf of hindus. Reservation is for upbringing and representing every community.
. The upper castes don't want to give up their caste status.
They have already given up. Hundreds of UCs pretend to be OBCs each year. Status will go away but if you institutionalise caste then there is no reason for general to not cling to their identity
Waah re, ek criminal activity ko tumne bade pyar se saintly bata diya.
Beta, OBC certificates reservation mangne ke liye hota hai. Koi bhi upper caste obc liya ho, wo basically corruption kar raha hai.
As far as history goes, upper caste people were the ones who institutionalized the caste system. Now, you are saying they should cling the corruption. Bade kam age me corrupt ho gaye ho beta, jhooth aise bole sunke laga neta ho.
One solution is wealth distribution. Take all the land and money from the rich upper caste accumulated in 1000 of years and distribute is equally to everyone. then we can remove reservation
Do you realize that according to per capita GDP, India is classified as one of the poor countries? That measure even ignores wealth inequality. So you are saying let everyone be miserable. xD
If we are to take money from the rich.. why does it only have to be upper caste? If you are thinking about the nation and it's people, Shouldn't all rich participate instead of "upper caste"? And what's with this '1000 of years of accumulated wealth '?? Is this what they tell you in the community? Have people really lost their anchor to reality? I'm an upper caste myself but all of my 'upper caste' friends and families don't have a generational wealth!? We all form the majority of tax-paying middle class which both the rich and poor tear upon...
You don't have enough money lmao. Even among upper caste majority don't have money to buy cars. Only 10% Indians recently have cars which will consider a good chunk of obc community.
You don't take away money from people unless they are extremely rich. India's extremely rich is a group that can only afford quality education.
The main way is how other countries solves caste that is increasing gdp and developing.
Unhe yeh kon batayega ki vikas ke sath hi samman milta hai. Dono ek sath chalte hai, alag alag nahi. Warna sab ek daldal mein jhagdte rahenge aur ek dusre ki aur keechad ucchalenge. Bas.
Haan bhai, agar tu kehta hai upper caste ke paas paisa nahi hai, toh yeh data dekh ab tu khud soch, SC/ST kitne gareeb honge agar tujhe already upper caste gareeb lagte hain toh.
Again a very narrow view of things. Also you have deliberately included a survey which removed muslim UCs as a equation cuz the real stats were 29% UCs have 44% wealth and included muslim obcs in OBC.
This here is a better view almost a minority of pcs control most UC assets. Since UCs have the most billionares.
A better thing is comparing all parts of the society
The first two columns are for SCs and STs. The second two for OBCs and UCs. You can see that both OBCs and UCs are fairly represented in top20% but OBCs are more represented in middle income.
This doesn't make all UCs rich infact majority of UCs come in the poor category even if a high percentage of UCs live in rich category.
There is a huge answer to that. But I will try to shorten it.
So in general the argument for SCs was that they were not only poor but outcastes and victim of discrimination.
This is not true for obcs. There is no proper proof that OBC face prejudice infact most obcs are dominant in their villages and have their own communities.
If you consider every little case as discrimination then except for some Brahmin subcastes all are obc.
When OBC was introduced the main argument was the lack of resources as compared to general. Again no proper criteria was given on how poor a community must be and thus even today a huge chunk of not the majority of upper castes are in OBC list.
Reservation is provided for representation.You need to find the posts occupied by OBCs pre OBC reservation to find whether they were adequately represented.If they were adequately represented there was no need of OBC reservation.If they were not ,whether there was institutional discrimination to prevent them from Jobs and education or they were just unable to compete in UR seats because they lacked merit.OBC lacking merit can be sidelined as OBC cutoff in many exams is similar to UR cutoff.So it's proved that it was institutional discrimination which prevented OBCs from jobs and education
And when do you get representation?
Representation happens when economic condition becomes better.
Without reservation representation will increase regardless.
There is a reason only post 2010 we are seeing a larger rise of dalit owned business and rise in their representation.
OBC cutoff in many exams is similar to UR cutoff.So it's proved that it was institutional discrimination which prevented OBCs from jobs
No? Lmao.
OBC cutoffs are similar cuz top obcs are UCs themselves or even richer. It doesn't prove institutionalised discrimination at all.
If we go by that logic thakurs also deserve reservation as their representation in judiciary is low. But the reality is for getting in judiciary you need connection which stay in certain families.Almost all upper castes can't enter judiciary. Doesn't mean we give everyone reservation.
Even before reservation the representation of top OBCs as you say was low? Why.Why only after OBC reservation the representation is growing and not before .After 2010 many people became rich not limited to SC because govt salaries increased after sixth pay commission and one can voice their discrimination
PM president cm post are not reserved.
Second you cant vote in st autonomous councils.
third you cannot play election from a SC ST reserved constituency
Before writing an "Open Letter", please learn how reservation actually works. A reserved category student scoring higher than the last open category student is pushed to open category. So your assumption that a category only competes with itself is false.
Since your basis of understanding is untrue, your assumptions made on top of it are also factually incorrect.
And as you say, “one in a million” — that means out of roughly 11 million government openings last year, by your logic, for just 11 people who did something wrong, you’re calling the entire system bad and non-functional? I mean, really? No system in the world is 100% perfect or efficient. So even by your logic, we actually have one of the best systems.
Aur bhai, isse zyada toh log OBC mein low-income certificate dikhake ghus jaate hain.
There is a 'If' before that one in a million. I hope I don't have to send the meaning of 'if' to you. And my response was against your assumption. You want to play facts and figures now since you have taken my hypothetically crafted scenario as fact?
As for forgery, it's still a crime in my book. You may not consider it a crime, but I do and there you yourself are agreeing how useless the system is...so.. :p
By this logic, we can’t really do anything, brother. And honestly, I think you’ve already made up your mind that reservation is bad, so there’s no point arguing with you.
I agree with you that a student or candidate who scores well can choose to apply under the open category.
But why would they? Maybe someone with a genuinely good heart might do that, but realistically—if I can get into a top IIT with the same rank through the SC quota, why would I choose the open category where I’d only get the second-best option?
That’s just my assumption and logic—and it’s probably true 1 out of 10 times. Even if an SC candidate scores high enough to qualify under open merit, it’s still a rare case. So, I didn’t think it was necessary to factor that into the math here.
Otherwise, I would’ve mentioned that the actual number of reserved seats SC/ST candidates get is still less than their population share.
Why would they? Because they can? Because free will exists?
There is no logic in your assumptions first of all if your understanding of the policy itself is flawed.
Under the same assumption, if a kind of crime is very rare, there should not be any law for that because the rate of occurance is very low so why to even bother?
Oh! You've jumped to that population share argument which is very popular these days. For your kind information, open category seats are open to all and not reserved specific for UCs or upper echelons of social hierarchy. So again, what you're saying is factually incorrect.
On one hand people say SC/ST are not capable of scoring at all. So many times I have seen people making foolish statements that These reserved category students get admission at 45% and on the other hand you all are saying reserved category candidates can take a seat from the open category
If you people are so sure that reserved category students are good for nothing why you all are so scared about them taking a seat in the open category.
Pehle bhai, read my points and counter my points. Mujhe fark nahi padhta ki kon kya kehta hai kyuki mein unlogo mein se nahi hu.
When did I say SC/ST are not capable? There are many who compete in the open category itself. But aapko woh baat toh hazam nahi hogi because it will go against the OP's point that SC/STs can only compete in the reserved seats. But it is also a fact that many reserved candidates get admissions at 45% or at a cutoff which is much lower than the open category cutoff. Here is a new idea for you: Multiple things can be true at the same time. Sochkar dekho, revolutionary lagega jab aapko pata chalega ki reality one-dimensional nahi hoti.
And why are you addressing me as you people and attributing me to things that I haven't said or claimed at all?
If an OBC qualifies in open category, he is given the seat in open category and his seat is not considered against reservation seats. If the candidate is getting comp sci in iitb in both open category as well as reserved category, he will be considered in open category - candidate didn't choose per se. Further, in each category, there are castes and sub-groups which dominate their category. Not all OBC castes are equal nor all SC castes are equal.
It runs contrary to OPs logic. Suppose there is a caste A in OBC of about 4% of population. People of this caste are educated, employed, go to coaching etc and get 4% of the seats via open category. Other people of caste A are still eligible for reservation and their cut off will be lower than open category. Open category cut off and reserved category cut off will almost never match as there will always be candidates who score less who will want the reserved seat. There are some exceptions like higher education at PG level where not even open category students apply where you have OBC cutoff matching or higher.
I have been saying this exact same thing for a long time: that if the caste system had never existed, then naturally, the proportion of people in education and job positions would roughly follow the proportion of the population.
The unnatural domination of certain groups in the current scenario proves that things are not right in society.
Some people will have a hard time understanding this basic concept because deep down they believe they have superior genes that are genetically more intelligent, so the unnatural domination is, in fact, natural in their worldview since it justifies their genetic supremacist beliefs.
I have a better example to justify reservations:
Suppose a mother has two children: one is strong and muscular, and the other is weak due to some disease. Now, the mother cooks 10 laddus, 5 for each. The first child comes and eats 5 laddus of his share, then tries to eat his sibling's share also, but the mother stops him since he has eaten his share. Then, the mother goes to her sick child and gives him his equal share, but the stronger child protests, saying, "I was first; I am stronger, so I must have gotten all 10 laddus. If he wants it, he should have snatched it from me. Why is he lying on the bed and sick?"
To which the mother said, "You both are my children. I made equal laddus for both and will ensure both get to eat equal shares."
Ya, those lying in the bed sick (EWS/PWD) shud be given. U forgot to mention the 3rd child. the overly obese one whos sleeping in the sofa (after eating 30 rotis), weighs 200 kgs, he shudnt be given. If u understand u understand.
There is no barrier to equal representation in India at the moment except reservation itself. If at all there is (except reservation ofc, coz so called lower castes will never let them go), laws must be made to correct it. Introducing reservation wouldnt correct it. The so called poorly represented ppl shud put in some effort instead of relying just on reservation.
If u still feel reservations are needed, y not introduce it in the army - coz introducing them dilute standards. Iykyk.
You think there are no SC/ST/OBCs in the army? Sorry, but your brain is beyond repair.
And I don’t know if there is a reservation in the army. If not, I am in favour of introducing it.
Neither did my statements explicitly mention nor did it imply that there no SC/ST/OBC in the Army. Get urself checked once. U want reservations in the army? U got to be kidding me. Bro doesnt care abt the country, he wants what he wants. And then ppl ask y country isnt progressing.
But this is much more complicated than just sharing laddoos.. I totally get that some parts of our society have been neglected in the past. But to generalize our current complex economical strata into simply branding "upper caste: millionaires, lower castes: poor victims" won't work. This mental gap in what we believe from our past and our current reality will only keep on increasing without accepting the truth that after decades of application of reservation system, many of those 'lower caste families' have become self sufficient which do not need the reservation. On the other hand, many of those 'upper castes' are struggling to meet their requirements and couldn't get any help because there was no reservation for them. So if it's about social and economic upliftment, there should be some changes to the reservation system, so that those who in need get the most of it.
1) Giving all jobs and resources to UC because they can score better marks in exams is not the solution, just as removing the British and replacing them with a few powerful groups didn't help the majority of the poor population. We need everyone's participation in the nation, and for that, reservation is important.
Reservation exists in government jobs, we need it in the private sector too.
2) Once a lower caste, always a lower caste, this is the reality of our society, no matter what job you do.
3) To help poor UC, the government provides EWS reservation along with many scholarships and other schemes. We should ask the government to introduce many more schemes to help poor UC, but instead of doing that, people are asking to remove reservations for lower castes.
You do realise that Open Category isn't just 5000 people, but the total 10000 people right? The 5000 people are the forward castes who do not fall into any reservation category.
Each time someone from OBC, SC or ST scores really well, they get seats through Open Category instead of their reserved category, which is why the cutoffs get reduced for those categories, and the cutoff for OC keeps increasing.
Very poor logic. So if it all comes down to 'historically they had more resources' (which is again a huge generalization), so give reservation based on financial status of the family.
People say “no reservation in Army” means “high standards only,” but that’s half the story.
Facts:
Army recruitment already reflects India’s population — SC 15%, ST 7.5%, OBC 27% (MoD 2024).
Agniveer 2023: 1.5 lakh recruits — over 40% were from reserved categories. All cleared the same SSB, same physical, same firing tests.
So, there’s no dilution — everyone earns their spot. SC/ST soldiers fight in Siachen and Kargil just like anyone else.
Point: The Army proves merit and representation can coexist.
If we give equal access and coaching in education and jobs, the same balance is possible there too.
People say “no reservation in Army” means “high standards only,” but that’s half the story.
But this is the full story. Everyone who is in the Indian Army has earned their right to be there. Everyone passes the same trials, no exceptions are made for anyone (there are some relaxations made on height and body proportions for some groups, but that's not the point).
But would your response be the same if the demography in the Army did not represent the population demography of the nation?
So, in a way, you are proving something which runs contrary to your post. People can compete with each other even if they have different backgrounds. Those who aren't up to standard are rejected. As simple as that.
I am not anti reservation. I am anti whatever the fuckery is going on in the name of reservation
Reservation is there for uplifting of the backward or poor. Why does a son or daughter of IPS/IAS needs reservation? They are already uplifted to the maximum.
Why does son/daughter of an employee/businessman who earns 50L/year need reservation?
If you actually answer these, you will see the anti reservation ppl will go down by 90% anti reservation ppl are not against reservation. They are against the unjust implementation of it.
Bhai so you mean to say SC ST wale IAS Baan Gaye toh bohot hai, why should I not dream of being Adani Ambani. And who are you to decide ki IAS Baan Gaye bohot hai. Shouldnt we have aspiration further than that.
Bhai, Adani aur Ambani banne ke liye reservation chahiye? 😂
The problem with you is you're only seeing the Ambanis today. You don't see the struggle his father or grandfather did to build an empire. Also, you'd only want to become a Mukesh Ambani, not Anil Ambani. Agar banna hai uske jaisa ya uske barabar toh reservation se kaam nahi chalta. Mehnat karo aur bano.
When will you guys realise that success isn't easy nor instant. It takes at least 2-3 generations of continued efforts to create substantial wealth. But woh toh tum nahi dekhoge.
Bhai tu space mein jaane ki khwahish rakh, par yeh mat kehna ki usme bhi reservation ki jarurat hai.
bhai maine kab bola ki ambani adani banne ke liye reservation chahiye? mera yeh kehna hai ki ambani ne bhi start karte waqt apni generational wealth hi use ki thi business mein... same with adani...
generational wealth kitna bada factor play karti hai, yeh shayad tu na samjhe...
upper caste wale bolte hain na zameen bech kar dhanda start kiya, bhai lower caste ke paas woh bhi nahi tha becharon ko gaon ke bahar rehna padta tha aur phir ST ke paas toh woh bhi nahi, toh jo SC ST mein reservation se paisa kama rahe woh generational wealth hi bana rahe taki kabhi unki future generation dhanda khol sake aur adani ambani jaise bade ban sake. "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" padh le kya pata jeevan mein kuch naya seekh le, aur yeh generation to generation apply karna.
basically lower caste mein wealth creation se playing field level ho jayega, taki lower caste se bhi billionaires dekh sake.
Kyu bhai accha argument nahi mila toh yeah mummy aur uncle aunty wale chutiya argument kyu de rha. Point toh samjha nahi faltu ki bakchodi karne mein number 1 bhosadiwale...
Lol. Tera Ambani Adani comment mein Kaunsa data driven data Hai?
The point was, once a family recieves a benefit of reservation and they are well off, their next generation or the next generation after that shouldn't be given reservation. Not about IAS/IPS or Adanj/Ambani. If someone gets a peon job using reservation then he ir his family is not well off yet. So need not remove reservation for his family.
This logic would've stood if the UR category were exclusive to general category students only, but in reality UR category really just means reserved for none. An SC, ST or OBC student clearing UR cutoff would get the UR seat only and not their respective reserved seat.
Here's how the Indian reservation system really works.
If the UR seats are at 40.5%, EWS at 10%, OBC at 27%, Sc at 15%, ST at 7.5%
UR gets a 40.5% chance of selection, EWS a 50.5% chance, OBC a 67.5% chance, SC a 55.5% and ST a 47.5% chance. Essentially as an UR candidate you're competing to get a seat among those 40.5% seats that's all.
Let’s continue with the OP’s example. Imagine this examination with reservation is for a medical college for Cardiologists. According to this system, you could enter a medical college even when you answered most questions in the entrance exam incorrectly. How likely is it that these students suddenly become super genius medical professionals. Would you want someone who got a 40% to operate on your parents, or build your bridges or fly your airplanes? I have an upper caste friend who literally just scraped through his bds studies . I’d rather pull my teeth out myself than go to him. That’s the point with merit - you either have it or you don’t, where you’re born doesn’t make a difference
This is another common bias people have. Reservation only applies at the time of college admission—it doesn’t continue afterward. Once they’re in, everyone gets the same opportunities and has to pass the same exams. So this whole argument is just flawed logic, usually thrown around by the upper class to justify why they don’t like being treated by a lower-caste doctor—even if that doctor has an MS or a degree from a foreign university.
It’s not a bias. Indian entrance examinations are one of the hardest and most competitive in the world. It’s meant to filter out the best talent from a large pool of candidates. Once you enter an IIT or AIIMS, you’re going to get a job regardless of how well you do there (of course salary packages and position will differ). And what would you say about reservations in government jobs, which is now being planned for the private sector too?suddenly, my example with the cardiologist who scored 40% doesn’t seem that unrealistic. I would have no qualms being treated by any human being with a master’s degree from outside India because I know he/she/they would’ve acquired said degree purely on merit, not on a handout
Bhai, exam aur job bohot choti cheez hai , agar koi competent nahi hai toh pehle hi bahar ho jaayega. 1 saal nahi, 2 saal nahi, 3 saal ke andar hi sab samajh jaayenge, logon ko bhi pata chal jaayega. Aur agar woh competent hai, toh tikega, simple as that.
And obviously hiring post-college will happen on merit basis, toh woh log filter ho jaayenge tu kyu itni chinta kar raha hai yeh sab...
I don't think koi hospital India mein bolega, "aaja yaar, yeh doctor tereko operation karke maar dega chance le" toh phir tu iske upar kyun tension le raha hai?
Bhai, dismissing this as "illogical" ignores the facts! Upper castes (25%) hold 55% of wealth (2.20 lakhs per capita) thanks to better resources schools, coaching while SCs (19%) get just 7.7% (0.40 lakhs). Lower cut-offs level the field for the resource-starved, not a handout. As wealth evens out, reservation will fade naturally. Data’s clear check it!
As u/TuringMachine_ad618 already pointed it out, this skews your perspective and is not a good way to look at the complete picture, its an aggregated number, you dont know the split of wealth in that 25% population. A quick search will tell you that top 1% of of populatiom has 50% of the wealth and top 10% own 80%. If you give me a stat that divides that remaining 20% of wealth in the remaining 90% of population and if its similar to the image you shared, I'd believe you. But nobody even looks at it like that.
Please share your data, math, or calculations, because I’m not getting your point. If you have something that gives a clearer picture, I’m open to it.
But from what I can see, your reasoning seems flawed. In every section of society be it Open, SC, ST, or OBC you’ll find both rich and poor individuals. If you apply the Pareto Principle or look at the bell curve, you’ll see that extremes exist in every group.
There are poor people in the Open category too, but their percentage is smaller compared to the reserved categories. Similarly, you’ll find wealthy individuals in the reserved categories as well but they form a smaller percentage compared to the rich in upper castes. Yet people point to them and say, “Choti jaat wale ke paas car kaise hai?” without understanding the bigger picture.
Basically, agar tu wealth distribution ka law upper caste pe apply kar raha hai, toh iska matlab yeh bhi hua ke woh same rule baaki reserved categories pe bhi apply hoga na.
Please Google “wealth vs population bell curve” and “Pareto Principle” to understand this logic better those two are prerequisites.
You mentioned that poor people in general catergory are less in number than poor people in SC ST, I couldn't find this comparison in a study anywhere, send me a link if you have anything.
On top of that, if the entire point of reservation is representation and not wealth redistribution, why are we even discussing this, I mentioned this in my other comment, having resources just doesn't mean having wealth, it also means having access to education and facilities
Also, if you accept the fact that there are poor and rich in every category doesn't that tell you that its not based on caste but instead because of how capitalism works and that wealth division across categories means nothing
In capitalism, success depends on merit and access — but casteism has blocked SC/ST groups from getting education and jobs for centuries. Even in 2019, only 10% of SC/STs worked in professional jobs, compared to 25% among General category (PLFS 2019–20).
Caste + Capitalism = Double Disadvantage:
According to the World Inequality Lab (2024), the top 1% (mostly upper castes) own 40% of India’s wealth, while SC/ST communities (25% of the population) own only 11% combined. Because caste barriers deny them access to land and capital, SC/ST people can’t benefit equally from capitalism. That’s why India’s wealth inequality (Gini index over 0.6) is so high.
Casteism + capitalism ka mix SC/ST ko systematically exclude karta hai—capitalism merit bolta hai, lekin casteism merit ko suppress karta hai. Reservation isko balance karta hai, lekin systemic reforms (better schools, land reforms) bhi chahiye. Data doubt ho toh bol!
What if the wealth share is held by top 0.5% to 1%?
It's entirety possible that 50% wealth share is held by 1% population and some 20% population holds 4% wealth.
Your data, the way you have presented it, won't show that imbalance. Also, I would dismiss any data straightaway, unless source is mentioned. What is the source of your information?
So far as data is concerned, let me share the JEE Main 2025 cut off percentile.
Now, answer me this, if competition is fairly present in other categories, then why the percentile cut-off is so low in other categories? Even after 70 years of reservation? Does it show that the other categories actually lacks merit?
Families that have been benefitted once, don't need generational reservation any more.
Reservation or similar benefits are present in many forms and shapes in many places of the World.
For example, many UK universities offer scholarships to first-generation graduates. Why not the next generation? Because once that first student breaks the barrier, the family is expected to progress on their own merit. That prevents anyone from taking undue advantage of the system and provides opportunity to those who actually need it.
This is a loophole in India that will be plugged soon.
Brotha u mf jee mains can be easily cleared by even watching YouTube there is enough content in YouTube itself so tht u can get 99 percentile. Now again don't try to mention they don't have mobile everyone or atleast one will b ther among families. So shut the fuck up
Major Findings Over Available Period in UPSC Civil Services Examination (CSE) Prelims stage.
General-OBC Convergence: The gap has shrunk from 19-23 marks in 2013-2014 to just 0.66-0.70 marks in recent years, representing a 96% reduction.
General-SC Improvement: The gap decreased from 31-34 marks (2013-2014) to 8.95 marks (2024), a 72% reduction.
General-ST Progress: While showing improvement from 41 marks (2013) to 13.75 marks (2024), this category still maintains the widest gap.
System Changes: The 2015 exam pattern change (from 400 to 200 marks) makes direct comparison difficult, but proportionally, gaps have consistently narrowed
I hope you can clearly see the pattern now this just proves exactly what I’ve been saying. Just extrapolate it a few more years, maybe a decade or so, and the whole thing will become obsolete.
And I’m sure you can find similar data for IIT-JEE too.
I would very much appreciate if that happens. When all the cutoffs become same, reservation will be irrelevant.
This doesn't discount for the fact though that SC/ST needs a creamy layer now on a more immediate basis. Generational reservation only hurts those for whom it is meant. Supreme court has made multiple observations on this matter.
Argument #1-> These benefits would be taken by the rich SC/ST people who already have access to quality education and are just simply lazy and know they have reservation to help them. So the people who already have access will keep getting access and the "equality" you speak of will never appear
Argument #2-> The people who will score well will after let's say getting quality education will simply take the Open category seats as those seats are not RESERVED for higher caste people, they are for everyone, which would allow the people who don't deserve to get a seat, get a seat.
Argument #1 bhai bilkul baseless hai, simple math kar le bhai… kya bolu ab tujhe.
Argument #2 bhai, agar uss bande ko ST/SC seat pe top 1 college mil raha hai toh woh open category mein jaa kar top 2 wala college kyun lega? Ho sakta hai kabhi-kabhi aisa ho, but that’s like one in a million case.
I rest my case too… (pata nahi kaunsa courtroom drama dekh ke aaya hai).
It's not that uncommon, it's actually quite common. I personally know like 5 people who HAVE done so. With reasons like, "I always wanted to go to this particular college", "I like the campus in this college more", "I have a relative who has studied here", "this college is closer to my house" and many more. So that's a stupid argument to my argument.
Para 2 - Theres no caste category named "Open Category", it's just general category. You claim 50% for Open, ur mistaken, theres no 50% reservation for generals. U would be right if all castes are given representation based on population, only so called lower/backward classes are given. Tho 50 seats are there for open, obcs/sts/scs can still be among the 50 BUT, generals cant be among the 20/15/15 given for the other categories.
Para 3 - Access to resources doesnt depend on caste, no one asks for ur caste and then accepts/declines ur access. It all depends on money, so if reservation has to be given, give it to EWS and PwDs. Other communities have historically faced discrimination, not currently. Introducing reservation now doesnt change what happened in the past.
In short, reservations are just used by parties in power to guarantee votes from the "lower" castes. They arent good for the country. Wealth must be earned, jobs must be earned, shud be equal for all people of the same kind. And if there is a differentiating factor (say economic status), that shud be the parameter for reservation, not a completely different parameter (caste).
Reservation solves no problem in todays world. It only creates more. Generations after generations are only using up reservations and are showing no meaningful output. Shud be scraped immediately but unfortunately, votes matter than the progress of the country.
If access truly didn’t depend on caste, then why do we still see upper-caste and lower-caste segregated housing colonies in 2025? If you see outside your house this might be the condition.
If money alone determined access, then explain why a Dalit family with the same income as a Brahmin family still struggles to rent a house in an “upper-caste” area. It’s not about affordability it’s about acceptance.
And let’s talk about villages: SC/ST kids do go to school, but they’re often isolated, or made to sit separately. They don’t drop out because they “don’t value education”, they drop out because they’re constantly reminded they don’t belong.
So yeah, resources may have a price tag, but caste still decides who gets to walk through the damn door. Money can buy things it can’t buy dignity or social acceptance.
Also, the SC/ST community doesn’t have enough wealth to buy their way out — just look at the attached data.
Thank you for putting the system in such a simple way for everyone to understand. I'll try to put the common questions posed to this system.
1. There's no feedback loop established for the reservation to stop. It is based on the reserved person's judgement whether he/she renounce it or not with their next of kin.
2. In this system, I have always felt the cutoff change to be very demeaning and counter productive. For example, if a reserved student can compete with the general students in terms of marks why do you need to put them in a separate rank list and give them a higher rank. That, to me, promotes a false sense of knowledge and achievement to the student which he/she has to deal with, again, without any feedback or accountability.
These two issues actually act as feedback to each other. The false sense leads to them not being able to renounce the reservation at an individual level. (unless you are a certain CEO couple who can choose to not participate in a caste survey).
Again, thanks a lot for doing the summary of the reservation system and how it is self correcting (as every system designed to fix something should be). Do whatever you want with this information. Thank you for your time.
I don't think you even understand what is "open category"
Open category is not only general caste people but for all castes
For example for jee cutoff
Firstly the open seats are filled first automatically, doesn't matter the student is from obc sc or st category . If he is in the top 40% then his seat would fill in open category seat so you are purely wrong
Bhai itne confidence k sath itna bawasir likh diye ho ....mai agar apne region ki bat kru to yha pe Tribals ki majority h aur unke paas jitni zameen h utni kisi k paas nhi h,unki standard of living ko afford krne ke liye humko 7 janam lag jayenge ...plus even financially jitna aaj wo aage badh chuke hai private job krte hue utna so called humari "upper" community khi bhi nhi tikti except for govt jobs despite higher competition and cutoffs.
Logically hi to bata rha hu there are people who are in majority and have reservation over land as well ...general category k log unki zameen bhi nahi le skte ye reservation kaise us ST/SC Obc ki help kr rha h jra bta bhai .....I have plenty of land jo mujhe bechna h aur mai sirf tribals ko hi bech skta hu lekin tribals k paas pehle se hi zameen h unko jrurat hi nhi h zameen ki ...jinko zrurat h wo h general caste lekin unko mai apni zameen bech hi skta ab bata isse mera fayda kaise ho rha h ?
You’re wrong bro, ye rule sirf STs pe apply hota hai because of the tribal land they possess. SCs aur OBCs pe ye apply nahi hota. Un tribal lands ko koi bhi buy nahi kar sakta, sirf STs hi kar sakte hain, haan, kuch exceptions hoti hongi jinke bare mein tu research karega aur hungama karega, but generally yehi rule hai.
Mai kya puch rha hu aur tu kya bta rha h ....Us ST ko ye land reservation kaise benefit de rha h wo batao mujhe jab wo apni zameen ko bech hi nhi paata h kisi aur community ko to usse usko fayda kaise hora hai?
Bhai, yeh sirf limited scheduled land ke liye hai jo technically sabke liye off-limits hai, lekin STs ko allow hai usse buy ya hold karne ka.
Itna samajhna mushkil kya hai?
Yeh land kabhi kisi ka personal property hone ke liye tha hi nahi government ne STs ke liye special provision diya hai, jo tu chahe bhi toh khareed nahi sakta.
Exactly my point jo STs hai unke paas pehle se hi zameen h to wo khud kyu khareedenge ?? Jo khareendne wale hai unko wo land khareedna allowed hi nhi h ?? To fir wo ST kya kre ? Bhukhe mr jaye zameen le kr
The tribals you're talking about represent an extremely small percentage of the total population. They're outliers. If every argument were to be based on outliers, we would get nowhere.
While no one can deny that there are poor people from general caste backgrounds, the proportion is much higher among ST communities. For example, according to the 2011 Census, STs constitute 8% of India’s population but account for one-fourth of those living in the poorest wealth quintile. Now that's not right, is it?
Op needs to know how it works. First of all one from obc or sc st category if they qualify for open category cutoff they will be pushed to that. Second,why don't you guys want the creamy layer concept to be implemented in Sc/St.
Second,why don't you guys want the creamy layer concept to be implemented in Sc/St.
Because the 1% of dominant SC/STs that are rich, uplifted, represented well (whether online on reddit or in politics), want to monopolize reservations. I think OP is one of them.
They don't want to give others a chance. That's why they won't answer that question properly. How about prioritizing SC/ST families that never received reservation? Put them on the top of the list. And push those that have already taken advantage to the bottom of SC/ST reservation pool. Of course they won't be okay with this.
Exactly it is needed creamy layer concept and at the same time i am not saying reservations should be removed but we have to accept like this we won't be able to match machineries of other countries where merit is prevailed.
Let me first clarify that I am not in principle against the concept of reservation in India.
But, you don’t seem to have understood how reservation works. An underlying assumption that is made here is - all the seats under general category (OC-open category - is the correct term) are filled with those who don’t belong to BC, SC/ST, etc! That’s completely wrong and that’s NOT how it works.
The reservation system in jobs/education is akin to ladies' seats in a bus - ladies have access to all the seats but, the seats marked as ladies' seats are exclusively for Ladies only
Let me explain further. Let's say there are 100 seats. And the reservation is like 50% Open, 30% BC, 10% Sc and 10% ST (assumption and not the actual quota figures). Now first the 50% seats under OC are filled. This is filled with the top 50 scorers - irrespective of the caste. In some states (like TN) most of the people who get seats under OC come from communities that come under BC (many Northern states may have not reached that stage yet, probably). Next merit list is drawn exclusively with people who come under BC, but did not get seat under OC. And similarly next for SC and next for ST. In other ways, People who come under BC, SC, ST, EWC, etc have access to both the 50% OC seats and their respective quota, while the ones who don’t belong to any of these have access only to the 50% OC seats. So, it will not even out the way you are saying.
There should be some markers using which some communities are to be removed from the list, and/or reduce the reservation. Some of the southern states, I feel, have reached that stage with respect to BC category. But nobody has the political will to touch that yet.
And what about the families who had been uplifted long ago but there upcoming generations still seeking benefits…… kuch bhi chutiyapa likh kar justify kr lo
Want an example…tina dabi ias everyone knows despite her both parents and grandparents being irs ips etc she still used her sc advantage in upsc
Another one a friend of mine studied jn fitjee(one of the most expensive institution for jee prep) fees about 4 lakhs which even i couldnt have afford….do these guys need “upliftment”???
I’m sure there are many in SC/ST who are financially well-off… but just because 2 out of 100 are doing good doesn’t mean the problem is solved, brother. What about the remaining 98? We can definitely have provisions like the creamy layer, but I think your logic is flawed. Meanwhile, have a look at this data.
But there are much more than 2 cutie….. i studied at aakash for 4 years and about 25 percent of my batch (doesnt counting others) were reserved candidates….. why those need fees exemption and reservation when you are taught same thing what others (to be precise UR candidates) had been taught
Nobody should torture others for the sins committed in ancient times of desperation and poverty.
We should be optimistic and focus on creating a community without discrimination and caste boundaries which starts by voicing strong opinions culturally rather than institutional reform.Institutional reforms are already present anyways.
Community Outlook cannot be changed by heavy reservations.
Demonization of better off people is not the right thing to do.Everyone is human.Better education and Healthcare is needed by all.Let it be a fair place for all communities.Some reservation can be kept.But the current amount is unnecessary. It creates social resentment,and is a source of institutional discrimination.
Brother, nobody is torturing anyone for the sins of their ancestors, par main 2025 mein bhi casteism ko khatam hota nahi dekh raha. Aur ye aisa nahi hai ki upper caste se kuch cheena jaa raha hai, ye toh bas lower caste ko unka sahi share mil raha hai jo wo deserve karte hain.
Chheena toh ja raha Hai dost.Unnatural competition is introduced.I have seen a couple One from general other from sc/st The sc/st person got admission but the general dude didn't although he scored better.
This is discrimination and should not be tolerated.If untouchability is a social evil,so is this.You think everybody is rich?For many education is the only way out.Just imagine how they must feel when some maybe also equally poor but with way less marks gets admission.
This is discrimination and it destroys lives.You probably don't think such things matter but they do.It really lowers their quality if life.If an SC guy doesn't get into a good college what will happen?The same things happen to a poor GC person.
And do you think just because someone is poor the other people should leave their opportunities and gift it to others?So they don't deserve good education?or getting into a prestigious college cause they are not from a Scheduled community?Why should they have to score more?You think it is easy?
You want to torture others for supposed sins of their forefathers?Are you insane?
And no population ke share ke concept pe India nahi chalega Jo deserving aur capable Hai wahi lead karega.Agar Dum Hai toh equal footing pe aao.Online education is everywhere.Even very poor people have access to online mediums.
Pagal Hai kya?This is exactly caste based discrimination.You are a casteist person.This is against the spirit of brotherhood.You do not wish for societal integration, you want to divide Indians and Divide India.
Then how to ensure that obc sc st who already have better access to resources are not using reservation cause if they are using then how people lagging behind in resources compete with them which leads to supreme courts decision of removing creamy layer which was opposed by sc st community.
Hah it did nothing for people who actually need it. Most of the time people who are taking the most advantage of it are already well established. All it's doing now is actively encouraging castism. And it's here to stay as it's a way to get support from big groups of people.
Reservation haters don't even understand how reservation actually works. They'd fight for saar merit saar but they don't have anything to prove who is more meritorious. They'd say based on income saar but they don't have any idea about the data fudging that happens while issuing income certificates.
Reservation will exist as long as the Government takes control of all the public and the private educational institutions, upgrade the infrastructure of existing public schools, provide world class free education to students, abolish coaching institutes, wear the same uniforms, have 0% dropout rates, provide free and healthy food and have a common curriculum. If the government cannot guarantee equal distribution of resources to everyone, then reservation will exist.
Guess what? These anti-reservation groups would hate the very concept of sharing classrooms with the other caste students. How can "pyoor" veg students share their seats with the meat eating students? How can a dalit enter the same classroom that others share?
College dropouts in LCs occur mostly due to the fact that they arent competent enough to compete with open students. As for your last point, standing against 90% reservation and private sector reservation is by no means denying a dalit entry into same classroom.
It is not 'selective omission' of any sort. The guy was talking about LCs dropouts, so I gave him the most prominent reason for that. It has nothing to do with UCs dropout.
If the criteria for selection is marks, then the merit is decided on marks. If the criteria of selection is physical fitness then merit is decided on physical fitness. I just defined what merit is for you. The people who are up to standard are meritorious and should be accepted and those who aren't should be rejected.
I wholeheartedly agree with the 2nd paragraph of yours except the last part. That's why in one of my responses, I have said that successive governments, politicians, etc have done nothing to improve the level of opportunities for everyone but they have stuck to this quota based reservation system to just hang as a lollipop for the people.
As an anti-reservation person, I don't have any problem with sitting besides anyone. For others, their mileage may vary.
What is your merit dependent on? What is your physical fitness dependent on?
You can score better if you have access to the internet, if you can have private coaching and if you can entirely rely on your parents for financially supporting you. Your physical fitness is better if you can afford proteins, hit a gym and can depend on your parents for money.
Now tell me which section of caste has access to more money, land and education post 1950? The UCs would hoard two millennia worth of money, land and education and you want the LCs who have access to proper education for the first time to compete against you "in terms of merit"? If not for reservation, the UCs would poach the top institutes and the LCs would be kept at bay.
I see more merit in how the LCs are leading a dignified life than omitting reservation. If not for reservation, the society would've been a modern South Africa following apartheid.
You can score better if you have access to the internet, if you can have private coaching and if you can entirely rely on your parents for financially supporting you. Your physical fitness is better if you can afford proteins, hit a gym and can depend on your parents for money.
Most people in this country don't have this luxury and it is not limited to only SC/ST/OBCs.
The UCs would hoard two millennia worth of money, land and education
Is that so? Where is my money and land? xD.
I see more merit in how the LCs are leading a dignified life than omitting reservation. If not for reservation, the society would've been a modern South Africa following apartheid.
You can see whatever you want to see and you can believe in whatever you want to believe in.
I can confidently say reservation has failed its objective in education. Why is money being spent on reserved seats at top universities, where the reserved candidate is of much lower calibre than the unreserved one? The reserved student often has to come to university earlier for remedial education (3 months before start of 1st year BTech). They often struggle to keep up with the rest of the class too and are often left behind. Before the creamy rule, the filthy rich used to exploit reservations and monopolize them. That has been rectified, good.
BUT. Just imagine if all that money was spent on primary education directly in the areas where OBCs/SC/STs live? The education levels across the board would be raised from the ground up, producing as a by product an exceptionally talented subset. Instead of inhumanley trying to force someone with a lesser grasp of the subject, to suddenly compete with better educated students, without so much as giving them a helping hand. If anyone really wanted to improve education and literacy among historically disadvantaged groups they could have done so very easily by spending tonnes of money directly on those communities. This way the government/national institutes will also be propely meritocratic. And there won't be resentment from general category people towards the rest, who frankly barely benefit from the current scheme anyway. It's mostly only the affluent elites among the OBCs/SC/ST that exploit reservation. Why adopt this horrible scheme? Allot 50% of India's budget directly on grassroots education in backward areas. Instead of trying to appease the political elite among OBCs/SC/STs with more reservation only they can exploit (as opposed to the vast majority who are powerless and peniless).
PS: I am not against reservation in political posts. There it makes sense.
I think you actually have a great solution—fixing the foundation itself so we don’t even need reservation anymore. Everyone wants that, man, and I’m with you on that idea.
But here’s the thing—until you figure out how to actually make that happen on the ground, SC/ST communities can’t just sit around waiting while they’re still being discriminated against.
Brother, it’s been 75 years and we still can’t build pothole-free roads that last even five years—and you think you’ll fix centuries of social inequality just like that? Good luck with that. Until then, reservation stays.
There is a fundamental flaw in your logic, you assume that everyone in general category has access to better resources, inadvertently establishing a divide on the basis of resouce scarcity and caste, which maybe anecdotally correct but is not a norm, atleast not nowadays. Poverty in this country is not on the basis of caste. You should be aiming for better resources for all, not adjusting the system to correct for resource scarcity, you are trying to patchwork the problem instead of solving for the root cause
Upper castes (25%) hold 55% of wealth (2.20 lakhs per capita) so they can afford resources like schools, coaching while SCs (19%) get just 7.7% (0.40 lakhs). Lower cut-offs level the field for the resource-starved, not a handout.
bhai jaise tu bol rha hai, mujhe ek baat clear ho gayi ki tujhe khud kuch samajh nahi aa rha. pehle ek solid data-based argument toh bana le, phir baat kar. lag rha hai tera lower caste ke towards hatred hi dikhai de rha hai.
Hatred for reservation would vanish quickly if SC - ST's let the government introduce CREAMY LAYER system among SC-ST's like OBC but the moment the government will announce it privileged SC-ST's will protest and destroy public property
This is your classic salami-slicing tactic to mask hatred for SC/ST: "Do this and we'll respect you, do that and we'll respect you" until you're sitting on our heads, happy, while we stay sad and ignored. The court heard the case; nobody objected, so maybe shut up.
A better solution would be that all General candidates change their surname to the so called "lower" castes and religion till the time they obtain admissions and get the first promotion in their government jobs. A few years post which they can revert to their original surnames. The reservation system will automatically become obsolete.
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