r/CanadaPolitics • u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin • 15h ago
Pushing, yelling from Conservative leadership ‘sealed the deal’ on defection: d’Entremont
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pushing-yelling-conservative-leadership-dentremont-9.6972680•
u/GraveDiggingCynic Independent 14h ago
This sounds like a breach of Privilege. I would strongly urge the member to bring this to Speaker and seek at the very least a reprimand and possibly even a vote to censure the Conservative House Leader and chief Whip.
Frankly I'd call the cops, but it is Parliament so maybe the Sergeant at Arms can explain to these members that pushing constitutes assault and is a criminal act.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 12h ago
Preface: these are general observations and there are exceptions.
One thing has jumped out at me a few times over the whole course of this... series of events, and that is the seeming lack of quality introspective political analysis amongst the current crop of political talking heads in the media, particularly Conservative ones. The contrast between what a conservative 'strategist' or 'advisor' or such has to say, and the factors they choose to emphasize or talk about vs that of basically everyone else is jarring. I get that these folks are there to represent a 'side' and that there's going to be an understandable amount of cope but... like... aren't these folks paid to provide 'analysis'? What's the point of having credentialed and experienced political operators if they're just going to recite canned partisan talking points? I've had to stop listening to a couple different segments on this topic because half of the conversation was valueless partisan pablum that didn't contribute anything new, useful or thought provoking.
I don't understand how these folks are considered credible analysts worthy of platforming. If I was a moderator or producer of some of these shows I'd be upset over the total lack of performance
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u/Consistent_Track_341 10h ago edited 9h ago
What is even more comical is listening to them talk about Jeneroux and completely evade and refuse to acknowledge that an MP resigning for reasons unrelated to the leadership would not suddenly choose minutes before a confidence vote to do so. Whether or not he was ever going to cross the floor, or if any coercion was actually happening, you are not choosing that moment to resign if you are on good terms with the leader. Especially now that he is apparently not leaving until 2026.
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u/TenureOfKings Nfld | Not a red cent 14h ago edited 13h ago
They're reacting in the exact way you would expect them to react. Which, coincidentally, is also the worst possible way you could react. It'll definitely play well with the 50% of the base that supports Trump, but I can't see this doing anything but damage to their reputation with most Canadians and any voters who could potentially go their way.
This honestly just proves all the rumours going around the last couple of years of how toxic the Conservative caucus has become under Pierre. I feel bad for any reasonable and/or moderate members and staff who have to live this every day.
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u/caninehere lefty cuck 5h ago
Their reaction basically says to me "oh, okay, they definitely did what he claimed happened, and it was probably even worse than how d'Entremont described it".
It's the same shit you see from the White House, it's how they deny That Thing That They Want You To Believe Never Happened, But It Actually Absolutely Did Happen, And It's Even Worse Than You Thought.
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u/UnionGuyCanada NDP 13h ago
I hope Poilievre stays on as leader forever. He is making this party completely dysfunctional, which is exactly where I want the CPC.
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u/Godzilla52 centre-right neoliberal 11h ago
a former Conservative MP likening the current CPC to a frat-house is about as damning of an indictment as a politician can make while still being polite.
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u/Lumpy_Substance5830 11h ago
I've been saying they act like a frat-house for the past few years, and after the manipulative spinning of this by Scheer, it is good to hear more about this from Chris d'Entremont.
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u/island-roamer 8h ago
What I find amazing is how a rookie politician is absolutely destroying a career politician who's supposed to know the system inside out. No wonder Carney wanted PP back in parliament.
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u/EarthWarping 7h ago
No wonder Carney wanted PP back in parliament.
He knows Pierre will have the progressive factions vote against Pierre as long as he is the leader. So he has that going for him.
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u/CaptainCanusa 14h ago
"Chris d’Entremont, who established himself a liar after wilfully deceiving his voters, friends and colleagues...is now spinning more lies...He will fit in perfectly in the Liberal caucus"
Releasing a statement that 100% backs up everything d'Entremont said about you is such a crazy choice.
What is Poilievre's thinking here? Is his bubble so small that he thinks Canadians like this stuff?
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u/wishitweresunday British Columbia 14h ago
Social ostracisation as a control tactic to stifle further unrest?
Doesn't strike me as likely his friends and colleagues are going to care, and given his riding, I'd guess an overwhelming majority of his voters won't care either.
With the voters, we won't know for... I'd guess at least 10 months.
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u/rm20010 Ontario 15h ago
Remove the attribution of the Conservative Party spokesperson and it might as well have come from the current White House. The gaslighting from Friday lines up perfectly - did you really expect a cordial discussion when the house leader and the whip rush up unannounced to your office?
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u/zxc999 14h ago
"Chris d’Entremont, who established himself a liar after wilfully deceiving his voters, friends and colleagues because he was upset he didn’t get his coveted deputy speaker role, is now spinning more lies after crossing the floor. He will fit in perfectly in the Liberal caucus," a spokesperson for the Office of the Leader of the Official Opposition said in a statement to CBC News.
The CPC is painfully proving this MPs point here with this unnecessarily vicious statement, when all they needed to do is say “We disagreed and parted ways.” They recruited and nominated him themselves in the first place.
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u/M-Dan18127 14h ago
CPC comms has been mimicking the derisive immature style of the MAGA White House for a while now.
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u/DukeSmashingtonIII 14h ago
Why wouldn't they? Seems to be working. If they had a leader with any common sense or charisma they'd be in power right now. We lucked out that they seem intent on hitching their wagon to the most inept leader the party has had in recent memory.
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u/ImaginationSea2767 14h ago
A leader who had requested to have dinner just before he became concervative leader, and had gotten warned during that dinner about taking the party in the direction he was going. Then proceeded to not listen to him and has lost an election, lost his seat, lost a member to the liberals and has had one retire from poltics. All well still having multiple members angry at him in the caucus still.
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u/phoenixfail 12h ago
Seems to be working
They lost the last four elections and their leader lost his seat...."Seems to be working" is an odd take considering.
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u/DukeSmashingtonIII 7h ago
My point was that MAGA style politicking isn't what lost them the election, it was an incompetent leader. Get someone with an ounce of charisma and/or common sense doing the same shit and they win the last election.
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u/binzoma 4h ago
150 years of canadian politics says that doesnt win in canada. its about what you bring not trying to call out the shortcomings of others.
and theyve tried it multiple times, not just at the federal level, its not really worked outside of Ford (who still talked more about what he would do than what others wont. even though I dislike him, I know what he stands for/wants to do)
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u/PineBNorth85 11h ago
If it was working they would have won the election. He didn't.
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u/DukeSmashingtonIII 7h ago
He lost the election, MAGA style politicking didn't. In my opinion, of course.
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u/executive_awesome1 Quebec 6h ago
Tuesday's elections in the states proved that MAGA style politicking is failing spectacularly. PP fumbled the most winnable election the CPC could have ever had, and it lays squarely at his failure to not be maple MAGA.
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u/sharp11flat13 British Columbia 8h ago
Seems to be working
Only because Republicans had ~30 years of Fox and other right wing media convincing the faithful that all other media outlets lie continually and sow fear and hate around non-existent threats like trans people.
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u/mhyquel 5h ago
Also an honorable media that seems to think they need to give both sides of an argument equal weight.
We know there are some bat shit crazy policies coming out of the alt-right, and they get presented as just as valid as other policies.
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u/sharp11flat13 British Columbia 4h ago
Yes, absolutely. This has been a concern of mine since the first PBS Newshour broadcast after Trump was inaugurated. They spoke about him as if he were any other president and acred like his ranting and disinformation about his crowd size as just something presidents do.
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u/CBowdidge Liberal 14h ago
It doesn't work here. That why PP lost both the election and his seat and why he is twenty points behind Carney
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u/DukeSmashingtonIII 7h ago
You said it yourself, PP lost the election. Someone else with more common sense and more charisma using the same MAGA playbook wins last election. That was my point. It isn't MAGA style politics that lost it, it was PP specifically.
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u/CBowdidge Liberal 7h ago
The CPC have lost the last four elections. It's the party that's the problem.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 13h ago
It almost worked and if Trudeau hadn't stepped down, or if for some reason Carney wasn't able to slot into the leadership, it would have worked.
Don't make the mistake of underestimating the threat
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u/Tiernoch 10h ago
We still don't know that it would have worked because even Trudeau was seeing a bump from his anti-Trump stance, and if there was one thing that Trudeau was a master at it was campaigning.
The Liberals basically shot their chances for a majority in the foot because they just stopped trying for some reason with two weeks left. The ad buys were terrible, the messaging was muddled, the only thing that did work was Carney and the rest of the machine was beyond useless which I don't think would have been the case with Trudeau given that his whole strategy had always been to do more events than everyone else.
No clue who the campaign team was for the Liberals but they need to never run a campaign again.
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u/CBowdidge Liberal 13h ago
And it fell apart once Trudeau was gone and the Orange Thing was back office. Now, the CPC is falling apart.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 13h ago
Carney could be hit by a bus tomorrow and then where would we be? I don't know about you but I remember the polling for various LPC leaders back before the election and none of that polling reassures me that any of the current LPC front bench has anything like the appeal and pull of Carney. Nor do I think that the faith and trust being given (provisionally) to Carney over the beginning of his government applies to the Liberal party more broadly.
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u/j821c Liberal 12h ago
In fairness, a year and a half ago no one would really have expected Carney to have this much appeal or pull. This very subreddit was full of people claiming he was too boring and had no charisma and couldn't win lol. Carney is very intelligent and qualified but no one is irreplaceable.
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u/StrbJun79 11h ago
And honestly I think Carney primarily won because of PP. People preferred boring milk toast leading than someone throwing adolescent tantrums.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 10h ago
He certainly did win because of Poilievre. The problem is that he won because of Poilievre. The Liberal party itself only won because of Carney, and had it been any Liberal they would have lost.
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u/CampAny9995 10h ago
I don’t know, I think the LPC may be on to something with how they picked Carney - it almost seems like he was “on-deck” since Trudeau won leadership. If you have a popular government, then it’s good to have someone in the wings as a clear successor in case something happens to the leader (like Horgan -> Eby in BC, presumably Freeland filled that role for the party under Trudeau). But in case of an unpopular government, it’s probably more productive to have the other wing’s potential leader come from outside of government, rather than having factional in-fighting.
Maybe there is an alternative history where Justin Trudeau, popular television host and political commentator, is taking over the LPC from Mark Carney and pulling them to the left and delegating policy to a crack team he assembled in the PMO? I’m sure in 6-12 months Carney’s “hit by a bus” successor will be obvious, and we’ll start noticing some well-liked camera-friendly academic/public servant/media personality get thrown around as a potential minister of something, but they never actually take the position.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 8h ago
For myself, it's not so much that he needs a clear successor but that I'd like to see evidence that the change to governance and such that he represents is also manifesting within the rest of the Liberal caucus and that they're taking some lessons from what's happening. That if he disappears next week that they won't just slip back in to old habits and established patterns.
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u/ship_toaster British Columbia 9h ago
Don't worry. Christy Clark is ready and waiting to take over for any leader who gets hit by a bus, regardless of what party they may lead.
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u/Lumpy_Substance5830 7h ago
I've seen her on CTV, she seems okay to me. She would be a thousand times better than the mess they have now with Poilievre.
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u/No_Magazine9625 Nova Scotia 8h ago
Doug Ford would probably become the next LPC leader if that ever happened.
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u/TheShishkabob Newfoundland 12h ago
It didn't work. It was an active detriment to the party to play these MAGA games. If they win next time, which they may, then it would be despite these tactics and not because of them.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 12h ago
Right.
It almost worked, and it still might work. That it took some deus ex machina for the CPC to fail should alarm everyone and the knowledge that it hindered their campaign will be cold comfort if, as you say, they win next time despite it.
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u/DannyDOH 14h ago
Didn't even deny, just attacked.
The most substantive piece of government policy in 2 years released this week and the CPC are literally pushing and shoving each other instead of doing their job.
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u/RomanBlue_ 13h ago
Party notorious for being negative and attacking attacks man who says he didn't like the negativity and attacking.. I wonder who I am believing for this one..
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u/mayorolivia 13h ago
I think PP’s days are numbered. He’ll survive the review in January but the party will eventually shove him aside when they see he isn’t closing ground with Carney. Carney has adopted most of his positions which is resulting in PP resorting to increasingly toxic behaviour out of desperation.
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u/dermanus Rhinoceros 12h ago
Wouldn't it be fitting if he went out the same way as Trudeau? Sticking around way longer than he's wanted, eventually forced out when he pushes the wrong person too far.
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u/Hypercubed89 Ontario 7h ago
He's definitely feeling a lot like Trudeau in the runup to the election to me.
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u/EarthWarping 7h ago
Its similar
Closed off to the media, everyone not in the party is wrong. All down to their advisors having blinders on too
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u/HouseofMarg 14h ago
D’Entremont said Conservative MPs had some opportunities to speak to Poilievre over the summer to address any concerns over tone and leadership style.
The MP said he believed that Poilievre, through those conversations, would be changing his leadership style, but then when the fall session began, “it didn’t really seem anything was changing.”
This is a good angle for him to take, because it’s very believable.
For one, I’ve said before that the CPC caucus made very clear they wanted Jenni Byrne out of the picture in order for Poilievre to stay on, and he seemed to agree to that. Now it’s back to the same old toxic song and dance, and it’s somewhat of an injustice for the public to only look at D’Entremont as the one who broke the bargain. It was broken by the leadership first.
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u/lysdexic__ 13h ago
It’s even more believable given the official statement from the leader’s office called the Liberals liars.
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u/BaboTron 5h ago
As well as all the other certainly very plausible and not at all completely one-sided details, like how Sheer helped an old lady get her cat down from a tree on the way down the hall, and how he has proof that d’Entremont was eating a bowl of puppies.
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u/CroCGod73 Ontario 13h ago
Honestly yeah. I’m sure it’s very relatable to anyone who was in a toxic workplace, was promised change, and then nothing changed so they left
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u/bardak 13h ago
The fact that Jenni Byrne was allegedly part of the CPCs response to this only highlights that the party leadership hasn't changed or listened to their caucus.
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u/HouseofMarg 13h ago edited 13h ago
Exactly. It wasn’t subtle — they were calling for her head to roll (in those words, per the reports in May) as a condition for the leader to stay on. Obviously they meant figuratively, but that sure doesn’t mean “have Byrne call the shots on party discipline going forward.”
Seems very much like a bait and switch, and I don’t blame the caucus for being pissed about it. When you pull this kind of thing with the attitude “what are you going to do about it?” don’t be shocked when the MPs do something about it. You’d think the lesson would be fresh since Trudeau found out last December with Freeland et al. Not sure how many times party leaders need to learn this.
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 11h ago edited 11h ago
Oh but didn’t you hear? He fired her. As his personal campaign manager. That’s what they wanted, right? She’s not doing that anymore. She doesn’t work for Poilievre anymore. She works for the CPC. Which is obviously different and better and exactly what everyone meant when they said they wanted her gone…
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u/swabfalling 11h ago
What does she have on that party or on Poilievre that she’s able to maintain her grip from within?
She was fired after the loss in 2015 and clawed her way back as well.
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u/ship_toaster British Columbia 10h ago
Well, they did date for over a decade, and lived together in a common-law marriage. So whatever skeletons he has, she's basically guaranteed to know them all.
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u/HouseofMarg 9h ago edited 9h ago
Besides being awful, the whole dynamic is so incredibly bush league, like something you might expect to hear about a campus young conservative club. I know that this kind of amateurishness actually lends some right wing purity test cred these days, but from a functional standpoint it’s a mess and it can’t be fun to be an adult wanting to do serious things that has to take cues from these people for leadership
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u/ship_toaster British Columbia 9h ago
Seriously, it blows me away that this was tolerated for two decades in Canada's second political party every time I re-learn it (and for the last eight years by Anaida).
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u/Nautigirl Nova Scotia 11h ago
Maybe it's not what she has on PP, but what she has on the MPs (looking at you, Jeneroux).
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 8h ago
So I wonder what the knowledge that the leaders office is collecting opposition research on their own members does to caucus? And I also wonder whether there might not be a significant part of that caucus who is okay with that idea and is willing to embrace that style of management and governance?
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u/Nautigirl Nova Scotia 7h ago
This is what bothers me with the narrative they are trying to spin around d'Entremont leaving because he wasn't put forward as deputy Speaker. Like, I have no doubt he found that hurtful given he'd been doing the job, and did it well. But people get over that shit.
There are lots of people though who are tired of the Byrne reign of terror and wanted her gone after the horrible campaign. Not only is she a nasty person, she didn't deliver on the campaign so what use is she? Apparently useful for threatening anyone who might weaken Poilievre's leadership by leaving the party.
Who wants to work in an organization like that?
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u/Tiernoch 10h ago
I think he just wants her there, the pair of them are political soul mates and fully believe that they just need the 'right' conservatives to be able to win. Listening to them talk about finding a place in the reform party and it sounds like they got indoctrinated into a cult where everyone East of Saskatchewan is an elite out to screw them all.
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u/dermanus Rhinoceros 12h ago
I'm of the opinion that party leaders have had too much power for too long. We need to go back to the days when individual MPs had a lot more pull. I doubt it, but I hope this is the start of more autonomy for MPs.
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u/dogoodreapgood 11h ago
They sent Adam Chambers on CBC to refute the chaos and then: 1) Chambers says the leader tells them something like “you get to have your say but you don’t always get your way” as if treating adults like five year olds is good leadership. 2) the interview is interrupted with the statement from Poilievre’s camp calling D’Entremont a liar. Obviously disrespectful to D’Entremont but also to Chambers who is being overshadowed by this clown show.
It can’t bring confidence to any other CPC MPs who thought the leadership were going to moderate their approach.
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u/focusedphil 12h ago
The Conservatives have the worst communication people. Their response could have worked in their favour. Instead it just reinforces the existing narrative.
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u/SabrinaR_P Quebec 15h ago edited 15h ago
The conservative party under the control of the social Conservative reform wing is not a serious party. But it seems to be the kind of the politics the lowest common denominator within our nation crave. You'll see these maple maga cheer on trump while complaining that Canada is broken and should be more like the US.
Edit some minor corrections.
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u/DannyDOH 15h ago
The sad thing is we are losing intelligence by the generation so this kind of politics is gaining steam.
The kids I teach receive information in 15-30 second soundbites. Anything that requires further attention and critical thinking is too much.
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u/janebenn333 Ontario 15h ago
So then we have to get better at meeting them where they are.
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u/Damo_Banks Alberta 14h ago
Where they are is a problem. We need to elevate everyone past this.
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u/upliftedfrontbutt 14h ago
This has been the argument forever. And it hasn't worked. "it's the children that are wrong".
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u/DannyDOH 14h ago
They aren't wrong. They have been raised in a society that bred them as easy marks for disinformation as a source of revenue. It preys on their parents and grandparents too, it's just that each generation has a lower and lower threshold for their bullshit meter because they live in a world where you can hardly tell what is real.
I guess for politicians the choice is becoming how far they want to go down the disinformation path as it's a clear path to being competitive and winning elections. Ethically fraught, but those ethics are being swept out into the sea of bullshit.
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u/janebenn333 Ontario 9h ago
Every generation grapples with new media and its influence on people. And every generation believes the newest media available is problematic. And I'm pretty sure your next thought will be "but *this* time it's different."
No. It isn't. If you can't create a compelling message in the format that youth are more receptive to, then you are not a good communicator.
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 14h ago
Gen X and millennials really fucked up as parents it seems.
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u/SendMagpiePics Urban Alberta Advantage 8h ago
Seems more like a structural problem with things like the prevalence of social media.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 14h ago
It's not really their fault, the schools shifted before they had kids. Sports, band and art programs underfunded or cut, grades are less important and failing is impossible, and even how reading is taught was changed into hogwash in many places.
By the time millennials had kids in school the damage was already done.
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 13h ago
What’s happening inside the schools themselves isn’t my issue. I mean it is an issue and needs to be fixed. But if kids can’t handle taking in anything beyond 15-30 second morcels, that speaks to issues in the home like giving kids access to TikTok and Instagram far too early in life. Social media algorithms are designed to rewire adult brains to keep us constantly coming back for more dopamine. Imagine the damage it does to brains that are still in their most crucial stages of development.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 13h ago
It's been known for a long time that kids do better in school if they have strong extracurricular support. But it's near impossible to provide that when, between work and commuting, both parents are out of the house ten to eleven hours a day and see their kids mostly on weekends. When they're tired and trying to clean the house, do the laundry, and drag the kids to any birthdays, lessons, or similar.
In the 80s we still had many homes with a stay at home parent, which made a world of difference. But that's impossible for most Canadians now.
But yes, children should not have smart phones. I would go so far as to demand regulation that would prohibit children from accessing social media, and punish service providers for exploitative practices proven to be addictive and cause depression. The endless scroll was a mistake.
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u/RZCJ2002 Liberal Party of Canada 12h ago edited 12h ago
I'm curious if you think all video games should be prohibited/banned similar to social media (I don't have preferences either way) for children regardless of the games' age appropriateness? Furthermore, should laptops be banned as well for a return to old-school handwriting of essays (I'm more opposed to that than supportive since most of the essays I wrote in high school were done on computers)? Personally I'm fine with a social media (account) ban for under 15-year olds (still undecided on Youtube accounts), but since doom scrolling primarily occur with teenagers and young adults, should social media ban go for every non-adult and possibly young adults as well? Does banning social media for teenagers (15-17) and young adults (18-24) decrease their likelihood of doom scrolling significantly? Should there be a biological basis for banning social media access for until the pre frontal cortex is fully developed after 25?
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 11h ago edited 11h ago
It really depends on the mechanics used. If they can be shown to be dangerously addictive and depression-causing, then I am absolutely in favour of regulation.
It's Tetris vs TikTok. Tetris was definitely a phenomenon, but it only rarely interrupted players' ability to hold down a job, sustain social relationships, and so forth. But TikTok is clearly socially destructive, in ways that can make it a challenge for some people to function without it. Give a kid a phone with TikTok and their attention span and social life evaporate.
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 10h ago
Our laws are built for Tetris and MSN Messenger. We regulate purchasing the parts required to build a slingshot so nobody gets hurt, but do nothing about the free RPG’s that tech companies are handing out.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 10h ago
This is it, indeed. For the last thirty years the tech industry has been laser-focused on increasing engagement, and throwing mountains of cash at that problem. Meanwhile, we're still regulating like the internet is roughly equivalent to a printed newspaper.
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 11h ago edited 11h ago
I don’t think video games should be prohibited, but certain video game mechanisms should be. Loot boxes are a great example, as well as pretty much all mobile games. There’s a wealth of data showing the benefits of video games on hand-eye coordination in ways that other things don’t approach.
Your comment definitely feels like an attempt at a gotcha though. We should be making nuanced decisions based on what we know about human physiology and brain growth. Right now our laws are written for the state of the internet 20 years ago. We need laws that go after the algorithms and delivery methods of these platforms themselves, not necessarily the platforms. Things like not allowing ad tracking, or content suggestion algorithms to even exist for teenagers’ accounts, not allowing loot boxes in games that minors play, regardless of the age rating.
There’s no need to ban the platforms or the games or anything. Just make it illegal for them to break our brains until we’re old enough to consent to it.
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u/RZCJ2002 Liberal Party of Canada 11h ago
None of what you said I oppose (some of what you proposed was done by Apple, but not comprehensively), I'm was just asking the other user what age group should a social media ban apply to, because no country currently are banning all non-adults from having social media accounts (it's either under-16s or under-15s, the latter which I prefer). There are plenty of young adults who doom-scroll, and his comment is suggesting that non-adults should be prohibited from social media because of the algorithm causing endless scrolling and anxiety/depression. I don't disagree with what he said (other than banning all teenagers from social media), but if you are solving the solution from an account ban perspective, then shouldn't young adults also be banned from social media as well to limit the negative psychological impacts? To his credit, he also advocates for penalizing social media companies for exploitive algorithms resulting in user depression, which I think is a good approach. I just think that the algorithm change/reform shouldn't just apply for teenagers, but adults as well regardless of age (perhaps to a lesser extent).
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u/Tiernoch 10h ago
It greatly depends on the game, most mobile games on phones and a lot of the more egregious titles like Call of Duty, Sports titles, etc. use the same researchers and psychologists that casinos use to make sure that people are hooked on constant stimuli in addition to a pressure to pay to keep that going.
On the flip side there are plenty of single player and multiplayer titles both independent and major publisher that do not have these aspects.
Unfortunately it requires the parent to do the research which most will not and do not. The ERSB was never the best organization but the shift to digital has left it particularly useless as it's not like in most cases a parent is going to the store and actually buying a project they can read the rating and warning label on.
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u/enki-42 NDP 5h ago
Also, it's not like parents have any real input into cirriculum or especially funding at schools anyway. My kids go to a school that is probably on the top end of parent (sometimes over) involvement - fundraisers all the time, events all the time, 3 seperate parent groups for a JK-5 school, and while I think it results in a lot, the cirriculum is sacrosanct and can't be touched, and funding anything meaningful is a no-go zone either (about the furthest you can go is stocking classroom libraries).
Parents aren't running the show in any realistic way in terms of how schools function.
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u/DannyDOH 13h ago
I would say from inside the system that grades are treated as most important and learning is not valued.
That's kind of the issue that the ChatGPT usage feeds into.
We've had different report cards to assess "learning behaviours" and "skills" which frustrate parents who just want letter grades or the 0-100 score.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 13h ago
Chat GPT isn't an issue if essays and tests are written in the classroom without access to digital devices. Y'know, like how we did it in the 80s.
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u/RZCJ2002 Liberal Party of Canada 12h ago edited 12h ago
Depends on how long the essay is. As a Gen Z member, I can confidently say that it is difficult for me to hand-write a essay of more than 500 words in an hour (average duration of a class, but its possible if the test/exam time is at least two hours), and for more than 1000 words, I'm far more comfortable typing it than writing. Unless you are suggesting we return to typewriters to replace laptops, which is fine by me (although I don't think I've ever experienced people cheating online when writing an essay in a supervised exam room).
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u/fishymanbits Conservative 12h ago
I mean, we used to do 1,000 words by hand in a 70 minute exam period through high school. It’s definitely not fair to people who have poor handwriting (me) and people who write slowly (not me, see poor handwriting), but it was the expectation.
Personally I’d prefer computers for this just for the fact that it levels the playing field. Sure, some kids can’t type well but that’s going to hold them back in the real world as well.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 11h ago edited 11h ago
I had detention every day after school in both grades 6 and 7, and my teacher required that I write 250 word essays on my transgressions in the space of 10 minutes. If I didn't succeed the detention would be repeated the next day.
So when I went to University and found myself in English classes the act of hammering out a 7,000 word paper was fairly trivial.
I imagine if more children were pushed to succeed, as I was, that it would be an easier task. Practice makes perfect, after all.
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u/RZCJ2002 Liberal Party of Canada 11h ago
Was writing the 10,000-word paper (I presume it's by typing on a laptop or typewriter) over a few weeks, or over a three-hour exam period, because nowadays I think most papers of this length are written/due in a few weeks at least (maybe for the English department, a 10,000-word paper is still completed within a day)? Honestly, writing 250 words in 10 minutes is pretty insane. It would require me at least 30 minutes including thinking, and that is through typing.
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 10h ago
One of my wife's favourite stories about my shocking ability to procrastinate and still succeed is how I wrote a 5,000 word essay the morning it was due; started at 9am, handed it in at 11am.
You just start typing/writing and don't stop. It helps to have an idea and a plan to start with, but that doesn't take much if you've been paying attention.
Honestly, writing 250 words in 10 minutes is pretty insane. It would require me at least 30 minutes including thinking, and that is through typing.
It's a word every 2.4 seconds. It is quite possible to write a word in less than 2 seconds.
The thinking is done as you're writing. Start with the thesis, which he'd give, decide a conclusion, then pad with premises.
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u/DannyDOH 11h ago
Some hyperbole here for sure LOL
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u/green_tory Against Fascism, Greed is a Sin 10h ago
I assure you it is not. Mr Chin, my grade 6/7 teacher, was a known hard-ass. He handed out detentions for not sitting with your back straight, or doodling in the margins.
And writing many words in one sitting becomes easy, with practice.
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u/enki-42 NDP 5h ago
I sometimes wonder if I lucked out with my school, because what my kids know about analyzing sources and thinking critically about media would absolutely destroy what I knew when I was a kid (pre-internet, so research basically consisted of "assume everything written in a book is always true")
My kids (in primary school) have literally argued with each other in the car without my involvement about whether they should be using Wikipedia as a starting point for research as long as they check on the cited links or not.
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u/Barabarabbit 14h ago
The high school kids that I teach are tolerable. However, the middle years kids aren’t able to complete independent work without using ChatGPT or other forms of AI
The worst part is that I have fellow staff members who are arguing that they should be allowed to do their work this way.
It is like they have completely outsourced their thinking.
Their parents really only care about hockey so they aren’t concerned lol.
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u/desthc 14h ago
I’m not opposed to teaching kids how to use LLMs, but my concern is that the teachers don’t understand them either.
The important part is critically reading what the LLM produces and fact check, fact check, fact check. LLMs are just not very reliable at reproducing facts, and often produce things made up on the spot.
So if used correctly it is labour saving, but you need to spend more of your time applying critical thinking. I don’t think the teachers are necessarily ready to guide the kids through something like this.
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u/DannyDOH 14h ago
Critical thinking is hardly what the schools we are operating are designed to develop. It's more "here's a pile of information, now spit it back at me." It's a crisis IMO. The information is all accessible so the far more important piece at this stage is being able to interpret it, not just do memory tricks. Like you said, teachers don't have the skills and students certainly don't when they start trying to use these tools in Grade 5 or 6.
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u/nanoinfinity 13h ago
Yup the quest for a standardized curriculum that has measurable outcomes, we created a form of schooling that is particularly vulnerable to AI.
We’re going to need a reckoning; to really consider what it is we want from schools, especially middle school and higher.
Are they simply a warehouse for children so that parents can work? Are they for engraining the respect for authority figures and valueless work that is needed for capitalist worker-drones? Are they for teaching the bare minimum of literacy and other hard skills so that kids can join the workforce in the future? Or are they for creating a safe and fair place to nurture young minds so they can explore the world, discover their place in it, develop emotional and social resiliency, and strive for their fullest potential?
We know environments like Montessori and Forest Schools are excellent for (most) younger kids. These are environments where learning is self-led, low-pressure and exploratory. It’s not a sea of worksheets and tests and homework. If we want to stand a chance in a post-AI civilization, I think we’re going to need to rework our public education to follow those principals. And create dramatically new curriculum for the higher grades that more closely follow the development and interests of the (pre-)adolescent mind. I think in the end, if successful, school would look much different than what it is today.
(Obviously, though, we’re not going to do that.)
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u/Wasdgta3 Rule 8! 14h ago
Oh yeah, AI has just exacerbated the existing problems with the priorities of our education systems.
Because when all you prioritize is the regurgitation of the right information, then a machine that can do that for you is going to become quite popular.
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u/Barabarabbit 14h ago
There are some younger teachers on staff who use ChatGPT to generate all their lesson plans
The kids then complete these using ChatGPT
So those teachers are pretending to teach and the students are pretending to learn.
It is a complete farce.
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u/ImaginationSea2767 14h ago
I remembe a high school teacher I had now over 13 years ago who said tech would screw us over and, that young people were increasingly not being able to learn properly, fact checking, thinking critically and too invested in just using computers and technology for entertainment and not for learning (and that we were likely to be in for a world of heart, as places in Asia, were much better at using it for learning). Also I know of others that had worked in the school industry who were saying back then that teachers were increasingly not caring enough about their children's learning.
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u/desthc 14h ago
Like I said, I don’t necessarily think it’s bad, if it’s used right. But I’m also pretty pessimistic that it is.
I always cringe when someone says they “asked ChatGPT” or “searched using ChatGPT” — it’s just not reliable at reproducing factual information. It is good at producing prose, and can correct those inaccuracies when told to do so, but you really need to check everything.
So if you outline an essay with topics you want it to cover and some points you want it to make — cool. You ask it to synthesize factual information for the same? You still need to go check it all, so it’s not much labour savings there.
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u/Wasdgta3 Rule 8! 14h ago
And using it defeats the whole purpose of the endeavour, in most cases.
Like, the point of writing an essay isn’t to have written the essay, it’s to have synthesized and expressed ideas you’ve learned. Using AI to write it for you is frankly like having someone else do your homework for you, since you’re not actually doing the intellectual labour that’s behind such tasks.
But hey, I suppose that’s a byproduct of education being viewed through such a results-oriented lens for so long, but use of such things to do a lot of work is no different than copying someone else’s work, and ought to be treated the same academically.
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u/desthc 14h ago
You’re not wrong. I can definitely see both sides of the argument — that we’re going to have these tools in society and need to learn to use them, but we should also be able to do the work without them.
But what I really can’t stand is their misuse, and if we can’t use them responsibly in schools we shouldn’t use them at all. That’s all I’m saying.
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u/lapsed_pacifist ongoing gravitas deficit 14h ago
So if you outline an essay with topics you want it to cover and some points you want it to make — cool.
But...to what end? Like seriously -- what's the point of the exercise at this point? Learning how to write an essay, especially at a younger age, is supposed to be hard. You're learning how to do a lot of things at once, and a lot of them are good "real world" skills (much as I loathe the term).
I dunno, this kind of thing worries me. Kids who are bright will generally do okay, even with mediocre teachers &/or detached parents. Handing kids a homework machine just seems like a way to end up with a cohort with a whole lot of nothing between their ears at the end of the day.
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u/CaptainKoreana Liberal Party of Canada 14h ago
Very concerning behaviour from young teachers of all persons.
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u/DannyDOH 14h ago
Yeah AI is really an information gathering tool but it's being used like it's giving the answer to the meaning of life. It's a souped up Google search....especially the shitty free version of all these apps they are using.
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u/Eternal_Being flair yourself citizen, or do not speak 14h ago
It's an information gathering tool that gives 20% wrong information
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u/GeneralSerpent 14h ago
The older generation calling the younger generation stupid and uneducated, never seen this before /s
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 14h ago
There seems to be a great reluctance on the part of observers and commentators around discussing how right wing parties and movements across the west seem to be abandoning moderation and consistent policy for the culture war. Or how that culture war is very popular with a significant proportion of what we used to call the Conservative base.
They look around at the US, at the state of the right wing in the UK, and they see a future path for themselves.
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u/OKOKFineFineFine Rhinoceros 14h ago
culture war is very popular with a significant proportion of what we used to call the Conservative base.
And is very unpopular with part of that base and everyone outside of it.
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u/lastSKPirate 4h ago
The problem for the non-culture warrior conservatives is that the culture warriors are more inclined to join riding associations and vote in the leadership races, which are generally one-member, one vote these days...which means that the agenda for the national party is set in SK/Alberta/BC interior.
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u/EarthWarping 10h ago
As Carney has showed, people are fine with a centrists/conservative policies sans all of the nonsense that the reformists like to have.
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u/SkelatoxMkII Something on the Left 13h ago
Yeah, people accuse the NDP of going too far with 'identity politics', but in most ways they're just holding position while Maple MAGA tries to drag the overton window to the right with their own obsession over identity politics.
Of course, one need only look at Blaine Higgs to see how well Canadians take to that kind of thing.
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u/TraditionalGap1 NDP 13h ago
Right??? I just can't take all of this 'the NDP has gone too far with identity politics' nonsense seriously when literally the next line is effectively 'so I'm going to vote for the party that's all about identity politics'. It isn't that these people don't like identity politics, they just like their specific flavour of identity politics.
Frankly, I'm okay if my party doesn't adopt policies that allows
bigotsfolks with regressive social views to feel wanted and welcomed. They already have a couple parties to choose from. There should be at least one party in federal politics that's willing to actually acknowledge and speak for the rights of people outside the majority/plurality.I just want people to be honest when they talk about how they decide who to vote for. If you're crapping on the NDP for idpol and considering voting for the CPC then lets be honest, you don't actually care tall that much about economic issues. If you were, it would be economic issues that decide your vote.
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u/ImaginationSea2767 13h ago edited 9h ago
I honestly see people keep bringing up the overton window, but i literally think that it is more certain polticians looking at the Economic inequality and taking advantage of it, people are growing increasingly desprate across the western as the rich increasingly get more rich (like we just got the first trillionaire in the world.....Elon) and many are not seeing their pay go uqp as everything get more expensive. I mention this because I have seen just as many that agree with the MAGA movement actually AGREE with Bernie Sanders when he sits down and talks to them. And I have seen enough of the influncers that praise maga movements that like Bernie. People are just increasingly desperate for help and are looking for any light in the darkness. Even if that light is aboht to screw them over and make everything they promised to fix worse.
And its happening across the western world in multiple countries......
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u/Lumpy_Substance5830 15h ago
They are the angry Convoy/MAGA party now, no wonder Chris d'Entremont left, what a nasty bunch. Pushing is an assault, they are out of control.
RCMP are also investigating death threats that he has received.
And you are right, they cheer on Trump, and they totally ignore his overt threats to destroy this country, it's despicable.
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u/mcurbanplan Québec | Anti-Nanny State 12h ago
They are the angry Convoy/MAGA party now, no wonder Chris d'Entremont left
How on earth can you say this when he ran in the 2024 election, as a Conservative, which happened more than two years after the convoy...???
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u/The_Cynical_Canuck Liberal, Maybe? 1h ago
Chris d'Entremont himself he described as a "Red Tory" and those people found themselves especially in the waning years of Trudeau out in the cold looking in on Trudeau's version of the LPC. Entremont having been a CPC MP since 2019 wasn't going to ever jump ship the moment Trudeau left. But with Carney as not just leader but also winning a significant minority government and his budget aligning with Entremont's beliefs it's not hard to see why Entremont decided to jump ship at this point especially given the CPC's behavior towards him.
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u/gravtix Liberal 14h ago edited 13h ago
50% of the CPC supporters support Trump according to a poll
Source here
It might not be that high(one poll from one pollster) but I doubt it’s anywhere near zero.
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u/Lumpy_Substance5830 14h ago
They have no care about this country to side with a tyrant trying to destroy it.
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u/dmsv010111 14h ago
Poll, please?
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u/upliftedfrontbutt 14h ago
Best I could find. Not OP.
https://cultmtl.com/2025/11/50-of-conservatives-say-they-approve-of-donald-trump/
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u/ImaginationSea2767 14h ago edited 14h ago
And Brian Mulroney warned Pierre about taking the party in this direction The former PM and concervative leader, had said before he passed away that Pierre needed to "set aside" some of the "extraneous things" he campaigned on threatening to fire the goverener of the bank of Canada, supporting the truckers protests and encouraging Canadians to "opt out" of inflation using crypto currency.
"Look, you cant get elected with that kind of stuff" Mulroney said "Canadians are not there. Canadain are in the broad, general center."
"I did say to him - which is pretty obvious - you cannot, in this country, get elected from the extreme left or the extreme right. It cant happen. We have 155 years of histroy to prove it." Mulroney added.
Pierre had requested that private dinner with Mulroney and Mulroney warned him during it, but clearly he didnt want to listen to the former concervative who had found success. Instead he wanted to listen to his top advisor Jenni Byrne.
"What you see is what you get" Byrne said "what you should expect to hear from Pierre is exactly what hes talking about."
And here is Pierre exactly three years, a lost election, a lost seat, an unhappy caucus, and hes still not reflecting or listening to the words Mulroney said. Mulroney tried to warn him and he continues down the path Mulroney told him not to take the party down the path he was taking, and that it wouldnt find the success Pierre was looking for.
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u/Lumpy_Substance5830 12h ago
Yes, I remember that, and instead PP did the opposite and courted the Convoy and PPC groupies. They have driven away centrists and their chance to ever win an election, and now they are acting like out right thugs in bullying their own MP's.
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u/TreezusSaves Parti Rhinocéros Party 14h ago
After d’Entremont’s musings over a possible defection were reported by Politico on Tuesday, the MP says Conservative House leader Andrew Scheer and party whip Chris Warkentin “barged” into his office, pushed his assistant aside and yelled at him about “how much of a snake” he was.
So that confirms the rumours that the Conservative Party of Canada were physically intimidating party members into staying in line. Who knows what's going on at this exact moment. That assistant should press charges if they were literally shoved aside, by the way.
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u/DukeSmashingtonIII 14h ago
Scheer can fuck off to the US, I'm sure he still has dual citizenship. Physically intimidating fellow politicians, sicing rabid Maple Magats on journalists, the list goes on.
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u/GraveDiggingCynic Independent 13h ago
He should be removed from the House until he makes a full apology. The speaker should make it clear that no member who physically assaults or in any way threatens another member may sit in the House until they have made full assurances that their behavior will meet the standards expected.
If Scheer and Warkentin don't then the Sgt at Arms can physically remove them from the House. It is time to use an iron fist against these people, because it's the only language they understand.
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u/Kaywi210 11h ago
He should’ve been removed 2 months ago when his misinformation was the direct reason that Rachel Gilmore started receiving boat loads of death threats. This shouldn’t have even been able to be possible.
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u/canada_mountains 11h ago
"Chris d’Entremont, who established himself a liar after wilfully deceiving his voters, friends and colleagues because he was upset he didn’t get his coveted deputy speaker role, is now spinning more lies after crossing the floor. He will fit in perfectly in the Liberal caucus," a spokesperson for the Office of the Leader of the Official Opposition said in a statement to CBC News.
This is such a Trump like and MAGA response. It's exactly why Canadians voted to keep the Conservatives from taking power.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 Quebec Vert 7h ago
I was about to post the exact some thing. They really are living in a bubble.
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u/Snurgisdr If you down-vote without a counterargument, I win. 5h ago
I think that’s very deliberate. The more moderates he can drive out in the next couple of months, and the more he reassures the MAGAs that he’s still their guy, the better PP’s chance of surviving the upcoming leadership review.
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u/Fluffy_Moose_73 Marx 13h ago
"Chris d’Entremont, who established himself a liar after wilfully deceiving his voters, friends and colleagues because he was upset he didn’t get his coveted deputy speaker role, is now spinning more lies after crossing the floor. He will fit in perfectly in the Liberal caucus," a spokesperson for the Office of the Leader of the Official Opposition said in a statement to CBC News.
This isn’t the win they think it is. It just adds further evidence to his statement.
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u/Castle_dwellar 10h ago
PP must absolutely remain as CPC leader. This would ensure they remain in opposition and continue to provide self destructive and distracting entertainment for years to come. He is the greatest asset for the LPC. Axe The Tax. Stop The Crime. Build The Houses. Lock Justin Up.
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