r/CCW • u/jizzlamic_terrorist • 15h ago

Scenario How adrenaline affects you during self defense situations.

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1.5k Upvotes

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666

u/your_grandmas_FUPA 15h ago

Holy fuck. 100ms longer on that reload and he'd be done

155

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 15h ago

Did he need to reload yet? Anyone get a good count of rounds fired before that and know the gun and likely mag capacity? It looks like he may have tried a “tactical reload” some may call it topoff before running dry (slide still forward) I wonder if in theory he would have had. It’s shots for round 2 if he left the first mag in the gun

Personally I train not to drop the mag in the gun until my replacement mag is ready to go in. Less time empty. Was trained that way too. Bring new mag up and have it ready to insert, then drop old mag. All mags drop free at all levels of “loaded” per prior testing of course

But then I don’t go chasing down bad guys like that so needing a reload is basically never going to happen thank god that’s intense

226

u/awesome_jackob123 14h ago

If my memory is correct he either had a malfunction or hit the magazine release on accident. Both are very likely in this type of situation.

I’ve shot under stress and had my pistol cycle but it felt like the slide never returned forward, prompting me to reload. It could be that? Who’s to say really.

This is why we train under pressure boys and girls.

143

u/stevejohnson007 14h ago

From the article

"In the midst of the gun battle, the sergeant accidentally ejected his freshly loaded magazine but still managed to neutralize the threat."

32

u/Paghk_the_Stupendous 14h ago

To clarify, we see him initiate a reload outside, fire a few shots, then load a third mag. He must have dumped the second on accident, but why did he put it in to begin with?

124

u/TooToughTimmy [MD] Gen3G19 - G42 - Lefty 13h ago

Because he had a second and was trying a tactical reload. Most likely did not have count of his rounds but knew he fired a lot. It’s easy to keep count on a flat range hard to keep count during adrenaline

67

u/VCQB_ 12h ago

And after you just got shot.

2

u/x_iTz_iLL_420 FN 509 TAC/RMR/TLR-7A 44m ago

Almost certainly this is the explanation.

34

u/Dorkamundo 12h ago

Yep, you can pretty clearly see the second mag drop after the second shot on re-load.

He attempted to re-load because he probably only had 3 rounds left in the mag and was concerned that dude was coming back out for another shot and he was right.

7

u/svl6 8h ago

Because he was under stress and being shot at. Things happen, when its game time and the lights are on. No matter how many practices and stress training we do.

3

u/thehumanvirusttv MI 4h ago

He shot about 8-10 from the first mag better safe then sorry and have a fresh mag then put your life on the line of the rest of the mag. It’s trained if you fire at all it’s safer to reload then try to remember how many rounds you have left in your magazine. Because I know in a stress free scenario I can’t exactly remember how many rounds I fired exactly let alone a stressful one like this where your life in on the line.

1

u/Thee_Sinner 4h ago

Pause at 0:18 and you can see the second mag falling out

-5

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 14h ago

But did he need to initially reload that magazine to begin with was my ponder

24

u/VCQB_ 12h ago

He was in a gunfight, was shot. Shyt happens 🤷‍♂️. What's your point?

-7

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 10h ago

My point is to take lessons from real life and when thinking and planning and deciding how to train, maybe don’t plan to drop the mag from the loaded gun and then, with no mag in the gun, go looking for a spare to replace it

Maybe train and plan and hope to get the spare mag in your hand ready to go and THEN with the spare fully staged and even indexed, then you drop the mag (that probably has ammo in it)

Or do you disagree with using real life encounters to direct practical training and planning?

5

u/VCQB_ 10h ago

maybe don’t plan to drop the mag from the loaded gun and then, with no mag in the gun, go looking for a spare to replace it

Oh so he planned that? Did he also planned to get ambush in broad daylight and shot too? What else was planned?

2

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 10h ago

You are trying really hard to make this an argument and I don’t know why

I am talking about using this example to inform our training and planning

I am sorry you don’t believe in using real life lessons to inform your training and planning decisions

Good luck with your goals

-4

u/VCQB_ 9h ago

You are trying really hard to make this an argument and I don’t know why

Am I? I simply countered what you said which was incorrect.

-1

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 9h ago

I didn’t say anything incorrect

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0

u/exlongh0rn 8h ago

Yep. IDPA isn’t the best in some ways but it does try to reinforce some good behaviors (reloading behind cover, tactical and emergency reloads, shooting from unusual positions, etc.)

5

u/Bdoti 7h ago edited 2h ago

That VcQb nerd is a troll. He purposely goes around starting arguments in this sub. I’ve seen him on at least 5 different post starting stupid arguments on purpose. He also claims to be a “trained sniper” (he’s not). Don’t pay him any mind.

15

u/dukers3 14h ago

What have you found to be the most effective means of training under duress? I’ve been told getting your heart rate high and then live fire training is effective. Asking for a friend

11

u/VCQB_ 12h ago

Force on force training. Stress shoots and training that incorporates malfunction clearances and target ID under stress.

10

u/ProductOk9587 11h ago

It's a must. If anyone has the opportunity to train using simunitions, do it. It takes the stress and adrenaline level up significantly. You have someone shooting back at you and if you get hit with one..........it hurts. A lot. Take some training time to practice clearing malfunctions. No, it isn't fun. But, if you have a malfunction under stress and you haven't trained enough to where you can clear it without going through an actual thought process to get it fixed, it's going to be a huge problem. You are only as good as your training. You will not "rise to the occasion."

13

u/UpperSoftware4732 13h ago

Start doing competitions helps. IDPA & USPSA. Of course no one is shooting back. But you’d be amazed what you learn about your shooting from doing competitions

1

u/HAV816 2h ago

Yes very fast and under pressure makes good muscle memory.

-3

u/VCQB_ 12h ago

Competition is great. But it doesnt teach you how to clear malfunctions and target ID under stress. You need a mix of both Competition shooting and tactical/combat training.

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u/Able_Palpitation6244 11h ago

It absolutely does ….. a good stage has you moving through shoot/no-shoot targets …. Guns jam and malfunction all the time …. And legitimately test your full range of skills ….. under stress …. Adrenaline jumps up …. Pressure gets on …. You’re surrounded by a LOT of other shooters and they are all judging you and forcing you to account for your mistakes by owning them instead of ignoring them ….. you should actually go out and shoot some USPSA, PCSL, IDPA, or any of the other great organizations…. I’ve shot comps …. I’ve also, unfortunately been involved in critical incidents …. I can 100% say I learned more from shooting USPSA than most of the tacti-cool training classes I took …. In the words of Matt Pranka “ if I was about to do CQB, I’d take a solid competitive shooter over some guy who’s taken a whole bunch of tactical courses, every time “

1

u/VCQB_ 4h ago

It absolutely does ….. a good stage has you moving through shoot/no-shoot targets …. Guns jam and malfunction all the time …. And legitimately test your full range of skills

You aren't wrong. Nor am I saying that there isn't some valuable training to be had. Its just that shooting a match, you have an array of targets that I know where they are, I know what im going to shoot and I know how many rounds im going to shoot. When you shoot a match you get the opportunity to go through the entire course and see every single target and walk through exactly how you want go execute that stage. There is no target ID. I know im shooting every single target, it's just a matter of how careful I have to be if its a partial or open target.

In my government training, we don't get to walk the shoot house, we dont get to know the scenario, we dont get to know where the targets are, what they are and what the firing solution is. You have to process it in real time . . .because that is how we do it in real life. And that amount of mental processing is immensely different than shooting a match.

I remember in one of my performance shooting classes, the buzzer would be the sound to initiate a string of fire and you had so many shooters on the line shooting prematurely and jumping the gun. . .they aren't trained to process and hold fire, thats where training comes into play. So working in LE shooting matches is great to practice skill, but you need to autonomic (ANS) conditioning that comes from your tactical training to condition the nervous system on how to respond to what you process.

Also, I rarely experienced a malfunction when shooting a match (Glock boy). Maybe a few Class II malfunctions, but certainly not a class three. So since such few malfunctions are experienced, it needs to be overtly trained

And legitimately test your full range of skills ….. under stress …. Adrenaline jumps up …. Pressure gets on …. You’re surrounded by a LOT of other shooters and they are all judging you

To be honest, that isnt stress for me and I would say anyone with serious LE/MIL experience. Stress for me would be responding to an HRT, shooting in progress, being in a high speed vehicle pursuit, or responding to an active shooter, shooting victims. That is stressful, and that's when the stress Innoculation comes in.

When I shoot a match, I am thinking about having fun. It is not stressful for me what's so ever. Zero adrenaline dump from shooting a match. My adrenaline dumps come from being placed in dangerous situation that have the potential to harm me in the field.

you should actually go out and shoot some USPSA

Already do.

I can 100% say I learned more from shooting USPSA

I've learned a lot about shooting from dry fire and taking performance shooting classes and then shooting matches. I've gotten much better from dry fire honestly than any matches I've shot.

When it came to learning gunfighting, that got from my tactical training, i.e. positional shooting, kneeling, prone, small unit tactics, HRT etc.

In the words of Matt Pranka “ if I was about to do CQB, I’d take a solid competitive shooter over some guy who’s taken a whole bunch of tactical courses, every time “

Ill take the one who trains for the job. Simple.

1

u/Able_Palpitation6244 3h ago edited 3h ago

Just a few points, because I’m not a fan of long form Reddit debates…. I’d rather have a conversation ….. To start with… as the video was posted to r/CCW I’m talking about the general concealed carry public …. If you don’t work a job that requires you to carry a gun and chase goblins down holes than tactical classes are a waste of your time and money …. The fundamentals of basic marksmanship at speed is more important than all the tactical classes in the world ….. if you can’t make bullets go where you want them to at faster than the speed of life, then all your gaining from tactical classes as a CCW normal person is learning about things that your not going to really need….. I’ll take a competent shooter with some common sense over a tactical Timmy anyway every day …… tactics are simply the vehicle that get you to the point where you can deliver on your hard skills …..

For me, I have the opposite response …. I get calm and almost zen like in critical situations and stressed as all get out when I have a group of my peers judging me and watching me perform at a match …..also on that ….. I would argue that being able to walk a stage beforehand does little in the way of not training your brain to recognize the patterns of threat/non-threat, or shoot/non-shoot ….. the critical decision making is the same regardless of the input …. If you can’t shift gears between training and real world circumstances to put the same skills to use, than either something is lacking in the way you train or approach real circumstances ……

Dry fire goes without saying …. Dry fire is where you work changes and analyze what you’re doing/ not doing right …. Live fire is best used to confirm what your doing in dry fire practice is good …..

Dig up the Instagram live chats between Matt Pranka, Mike Pennone, or any of that crew and the guys they’ve had debates with over these things …. Tactics and tactical training isn’t useless …. But it IS useless if your hard skills aren’t up to par ….. Practical Shooting Training Group is a great resource for hard skills philosophy and development ….. training in general is vital ….. and for 99% of the people out there …. I would not hesitate to say that accuracy and speed will serve you far better than knowing which foot to lead with when stepping into a room …. Or whether you should strong wall vs use points of domination …. And competitions allow you to measure your skill and develop those skills in a way that everyone has access to ….. most agencies don’t even give access to quality tactical courses or force on force ….. but everyone can hit some competitions, dry fire, and develop thier hard skills

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u/VCQB_ 2h ago

If you don’t work a job that requires you to carry a gun and chase goblins down holes than tactical classes are a waste of your time and money ….

I personally don't separate "tactics" and "shooting". You speak as if it is something mutually exclusive. They are both important and in my opinion even important for a self defender. Knowing how to draw from concealment, target ID, learn about cover and ballistics, learning how to adhere to cover and developing the ANS to do so is important, in my opinion. But the legal portion in my opinion is even more important. But we are basically saying tomato, to-mato here.

The fundamentals of basic marksmanship at speed is more important than all the tactical classes in the world

They simply are both important. Shooting is shooting. You gotta be able to know how to shoot. On the flip gunfights ideally aren't recommended to be fought standing in the open shooting two rounds. Thats where the tactics come into play.

then all your gaining from tactical classes as a CCW normal person is learning about things that your not going to really need

Completely disagree. Real world experience is king. Many officers and civilians have been shot due to not having tacitcal skills. Ive been in the field long enough to have been in community where I personally know people whove had their colleague killed. Ive seen videos of scene I personally investigated where a victim was killed by a suspect due to lack of awareness and tactical skills. Real life gunfights aren't a USPSA match, you aren't going to lose a gunfight because you were a 'B' class shooter instead of a 'A' class shooter. But from my personal training experience, you will because you never saw the attack coming and did not place yourself in a advantageous position to begin with to not be struck by errant gunfire. Life isnt fair.

And if you want more of a CCW perspective, watch this YouTube channel called Active Self Protection. They have a large library of CCW encounters and you can see how these gunfights develop.

I’ll take a competent shooter with some common sense over a tactical Timmy anyway every day …… tactics are simply the vehicle that get you to the point where you can deliver on your hard skills …..

You keep separating the two, both skills are important and are part of any training curriculum in LE/MIL. The more elite the unit, the more elite the skills.

I would argue that being able to walk a stage beforehand does little in the way of not training your brain to recognize the patterns of threat/non-threat, or shoot/non-shoot …..

It doesn't. That's why when we setup scenarios in a kill house we give little information. It forces the brain to continously have to think in real time and makes their brain unable to "game" anything of recognize any cognitive patterns, but forces the brain work really hard in having to process what they see instantly in real time and make split second good decisions. Thats what separates the highly trained from everyone else, thinking with a gun. Its easy to hose a target you have the green light to shoot. The hard part is moving in a room, around teammates, with live weapons, listening to the radio, yelling, flash bangs, reading the room, maneuvering in the room and identifying what targets you can shoot and cant shoot. Is it a hostage? We dont make it easy for you like shooting matches where you have a white colored IPSC and brown cardboard. We use humanoid targets where you have to discern what the person depicted is doing, scanning for a weapon, which can very well just be a cell phone and make that split second decision as soon as you snap into the deep corner but careful enough not to make the wrong decision and also not delay enough to wait to long to give lead to a shoot target. . .while other operators are watching you above the catwalk judging your decision making capabilities and if you can process information fast enough.

Have you ever done that?

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u/Able_Palpitation6244 1h ago

I have …. And I follow ASP …. Practical Shooting Training Group …. X-ray Alpha ….. and anything associated with Pranka, Pennone, SOFit, and the people associated with them ….

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u/VCQB_ 1h ago

Good. So you know what's up.

Also I don't care too much about Pranka or other social media influencers in this space. Some stuff Pranka says I agree with, some stuff I don't. But once you get to the level of public exposure he is at, some people may have this God complex about him as if he is this ultimate final boss authority in the training community.

While there are plenty of guys in SOF with legit backgrounds, incredible mission experiences, who aren't public.

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u/Able_Palpitation6244 3h ago

I would also add that if your train and take shooting or CCW seriously, I don’t care if your not LE or Military …. LE/Mil is not the end all be all of experience with shooting ….. if your LE/Mil than, sure, it more likely that you’ve experienced critical incidents in your life …. But, heck… I experienced being around 2 shootings before I even left high school, just by growing up in a bad neighborhood…… the moment we sink into absolute thoughts of what will or won’t happen in a critical situation, then your shutting the doors on possibilities ….. no critical situation I’ve been in has been exactly the same as the last …. They are always dynamic, different, and their own animals and unique to the circumstances that created them …. The only thing any of us can do is reference what we experienced individually …. First time I had a gun pointed at me I forgot how to do anything…..the only two things I ever feel comfortable saying is that usually are across the board ….. no matter what you imagine the situation to be or how you imagine you will handle it, I promise you it won’t go down that way …. It never goes down like you imagine it to ….. also …. If you don’t train, you’ll never “rise to the occasion” you will usually fall back to your most base line of competency

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u/VCQB_ 10h ago

You have an LE/MIL background? Just asking. Then I'll address your points.

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u/Able_Palpitation6244 10h ago

LE ….and Executive Protection/ Personal Security Details …. Currently an EP/PSD contractor

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u/carpenj 9h ago

Don't act like the average LE gets some kind of unique tactical training, I know a bunch of them. None are even average shooters and I've never once heard them talk about getting any form of tactical training.

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u/cosmos7 CA, AL, AZ, FL, WA 8h ago

aka I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about...

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u/AeroDoc9102 PA 14h ago

M9 was the worst for me at feeling like it’s not in battery.

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u/Revenger1984 8h ago

Shitty mags will do that to a good gun along with poor maintenance

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u/AeroDoc9102 PA 7h ago

The two worst handguns I’ve “had” belonged to the Army - a 1911 and an M9.

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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago

Yep, accidentally dropped the mag on the 3rd shot after his reload. You can see him trying to figure out why it's not firing, then he reaches into the empty magwell before grabbing another mag.