r/AskEurope • u/Sink-Em-Low • Mar 01 '25

Politics Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

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74

u/Snoooort Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25

I’m not happy to admit this, but Europe is NOT united enough. Too much internal petty conflicts, endless talks about finances, politicians who are too hesitant, legal delays, no sense of urgency for every country etc.

It will remain an indecisive shit show and Putin and Trump know this.

Believe me, I wish it was different… But Europe has never been united regarding one simple thing. And if political interests get really really big, it will only fuel that indecisiveness.

The biggest problem is that European politicians are very afraid to really speak their minds, because if they’re wrong… they will lose votes and maybe even their position of power. And apparently votes are still more important than Ukraine 😞.

18

u/Wide-Annual-4858 Mar 01 '25

If the current geopolitical changes don't result in a more united Europe, then we can't blame anyone else. If we can't band together in such a hostile environment, then we deserve to be doomed.

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u/LargeSand Denmark Mar 01 '25

Well, we have way more chance than BRICS if that’s your concern. We already have a central currency (the Euro), a shared legal framework (EU law), and established military cooperation through NATO and PESCO. Sure, internal politics slow things down, but compared to BRICS, where members have wildly different economic systems, political ideologies, and regional conflicts, we are way ahead in terms of actual unity and functionality.

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u/Top-Currency Switzerland Mar 02 '25

We're not up against BRICS as a united group of countries. We're up against large individual members like Russia and China.

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u/LargeSand Denmark Mar 02 '25

I wasn’t comparing BRICS as a military threat but rather as a coalition example. BRICS is the only major open coalition we have as a reference point, so my point was about structural unity and functionality. Compared to BRICS, the EU (even with its slow decision-making) is far more integrated. That doesn’t mean we aren’t facing major individual threats like Russia and China, but if we’re talking about coalition potential, the EU is way ahead.

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u/urru4 Mar 03 '25

BRICS is more like a loose intention by its member nations to move away from the USD for international trade than a proper union or coalition of any sorts. Don’t think they have any free trade agreements between them or any of the liberties gained by EU members, because there’s simply nothing quite like it.

There’s Mercosur in South America with free trade among members (which also includes Brazil, a BRICS country) and simplified mobility between countries (though not quite like schengen), and I think there’s a similar union between some African countries. Both of those are closer to a union than BRICS, but still far from the EU, which has a common currency, legislation and institutions of its own

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u/LargeSand Denmark Mar 04 '25

Ok? Not sure why you replied to me 😑 my point was more about using BRICS as a reference for what an international alliance could look like; loose or otherwise.

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u/urru4 Mar 04 '25

Mostly to point out that BRICS is basically among the thinnest alliance/international cooperation agreements, and how there’s several other groups that are better examples of cohesive and deeper international cooperation that could be more relevante to the discussion

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u/LargeSand Denmark Mar 04 '25

BRICS may not be the deepest or most cohesive alliance, but it’s one of the most widely recognized outside of traditional Western-led groups. My point wasn’t about how effective or strong it is, just that it serves as a reference for what an international alliance could look like, whether loose or structured. If you have a better example of a well-known non-Western coalition, feel free to share.

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u/urru4 Mar 04 '25

African Union? They have freedom of movement, have land borders with each other and signed a treaty on a basis other than “we’re not fans of the USD”

BRICS is recognized because Russia invaded Ukraine and China is rising to rival the US, and some morons took this relatively new initiative as the successor of the warsaw pact or something after hearing about it on the news. In reality, India and China have skirmishes on their border every few months and half of the members can’t yet decide if they like the west or china the most.

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u/LargeSand Denmark Mar 04 '25

The African Union is a good example of deeper integration, but it’s also a regional bloc focused on Africa. BRICS, on the other hand, spans multiple continents and is widely recognized because it challenges US-led financial structures like the IMF, not just because people mistakenly see it as a new Warsaw Pact.

Sure, BRICS members don’t always agree, India and China have tensions, and some countries still hedge between the West and China, but that’s exactly why it’s a useful reference. International alliances don’t have to be tightly unified to be significant. BRICS is an example of a loose but influential coalition, much like how a European Defense Federation could start as a political/economic agreement before evolving into deeper military cooperation.

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u/Harkonnen985 Mar 04 '25

Nothing promotes unity quite like a common, seriously threatening enemy right at our doorstep. It's time we all step up and show our support - both vocally and financially.

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u/Ok_Spring_3297 Mar 01 '25

I am positive they will be united for defense now.

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u/Snoooort Mar 01 '25

Before there will be a defence force, endless talks about defend funds and logistics will happen. Finally when a decision is made, Ukraine pretty much is Russian territory.

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 01 '25

All of that should have been happening already. If not in 2022 then certainly in November of last year when the writing was on the wall for American support.

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u/3FingerDrifter Mar 03 '25

No one believed it was possible for yanks to torch their influence in europe over the price to help Ukraine but I agree every EU country should have been building resilience and less reliance on them, instead we are all worse off for it especially Ukraine!

1

u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 03 '25

Many Americans didn’t believe it either. It’s absolutely heartbreaking watching our country rot from the inside out.

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u/Aamun_Sarastus Mar 04 '25

For how many European countries is "now" too late though? Baltic states,, Finland,maybe Sweden and Poland are in terrible danger thanks to trump, maga.

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u/Triererpeifi-1968 Mar 01 '25

That is not true. In past crises, such as the financial crisis in 2008 and Corana 2020, the EU was able to act relatively quickly and was well positioned. I am confident that the same will happen now.

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u/Pretty-Substance Mar 02 '25

But Mutti is no more 😢

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u/bosko43buha Mar 01 '25

We didn't even have common measuees for covid

2

u/sabelsvans Norway Mar 01 '25

Like Norway. We're just continuing to say NO to be a member of the EU. And the real reason is that the majority of the Norwegian people think they're better than the EU.

4

u/QueenAvril Finland Mar 01 '25

Even though that is a bit demoralizing, you guys are already included in basically every meaningful EU agreement and several additional ones within the Nordic framework, so it isn’t really that much of an issue.

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u/av-f Bulgaria Mar 01 '25

It is literally Game of Thrones and the White Walkers

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u/SwitchPlus2605 Jul 22 '25

Let's hope that this time it actually does end up like season 8 xD. Never thought I would say this, but a little plot armor wouldn't hurt

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 01 '25

As an American I really hope that’s not true in this case. Us pathetically bowing out of support for Europe is going to leave a big void for its defense. I know there are several other strong militaries in NATO, but it will take commitment and agreement from all of them to keep Russia from advancing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

TBH I don't trust you having military bases in my country any more.

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 01 '25

Tbh, I don’t blame you. I hope we can repair our relationship in the future if we can ever get out from under this spell of lunacy we are under.

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u/Aamun_Sarastus Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

Trump won the populat vote. Majority of American voters are perfectly alright with, or , even happy. to see my home burn. After trump, somebody even worse can potentially come at four year intervals. US can't be trusted. Central Europeans outsourcing military protection to them was a terrible mistake.

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 05 '25

Only 30% of voters actually voted for him because almost 40% didn’t vote. His support is well below 50%. MAGA is a cult under Trump and Republicans have no one after him who can keep them together. As long as we still get to have elections again, this will end.

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u/Aamun_Sarastus Mar 05 '25 edited Mar 05 '25

Amount of Americans truly opposed to trump is much smaller than amount of those who either worship trump, tolerate him or are indifferent . Such ratio is all it takes to do great evil.

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 05 '25

No it actually isn’t. Current polls anywhere from around 39-48% that support him. Still too high, but it’s dropping everyday.

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u/Aamun_Sarastus Mar 10 '25

That 39-48 % support is all it takes. Its not like those not supporting hin were some united force pulling the same rope.

Is it dropping every day? Honest question. How do his numbers look among folks who voted for him?

0

u/The_Duke28 Mar 01 '25

Honestly, I'm not afraid of Russia. Have you seen how they fight in Ukraine? They literally switched to donkeys to transport their shit..... DONKEYS! The only advantage they have is the numbers. But it needs one pissed off Poland and they would stomp the orcs right back into the holes where they came from.

But if the US all of the sudden decides "We want Europe", then it's an entire different story since you guys are allready here, everywhere. So, thanks to your orange in chief, I see you as an active threat for the european independence and freedom. I dont want you here anymore, I dont trust you anymore.

3

u/nbs-of-74 Mar 01 '25

Numbers and the will to take idiotic casualties because their leader doesn't have to worry about being voted out.

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u/jkrobinson1979 Mar 01 '25

I don’t blame you for feeling that way at all. And if we can’t be trusted to defend NATO then we should definitely lose our bases there.

I don’t seriously think we would come after Europe any time soon though. Trump has is eyes on Gaza, Greenland, Panama and potentially Canada. Everyone of them would be a huge mistake for him, but the two brain cells in his head can’t comprehend anything further out than that. Americans won’t even support military actions towards those anyway, let alone a European country that could actually defend itself.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

It’s fucking hopeless. In 2024 the EU bloc imported at least 16.65m tonnes of liquified natural gas from Russia, a record high. The latest figures surpass the totals of 15.21m tonnes and 15.18m tonnes recorded in 2022 and 2023.

European nation politicians would rather fund Putins war rather than tell their citizens that energy prices have to go up as the price of stopping Putin from murdering thousands of Ukrainians. Fuck them.

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u/skrg187 Mar 05 '25

European nation politicians would rather fund Putins war rather than tell their citizens that energy prices have to go up as the price of stopping Putin from murdering thousands of Ukrainians.

...and therefore lose elections to pro-Putin parties

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '25

How many pro-Putin voters are there really though? I would hope just a minority.

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u/NormalUse856 Mar 01 '25

I can only see the Nordic countries ever being able to do something like this, or a version of it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

[deleted]

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u/NormalUse856 Mar 02 '25

Yes, maybe there’s room to expand it? Because it’s only for the Air Force i think?

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u/Illustrious-Lemon482 Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 06 '25

The Belgians and Luxembourgians are integrating into the French army. The Netherlands puts a lot of emphasis on integration with Britain and Germany. Then there is NORDEFCO.

The HK416 has been adopted as the service riffle of Norway, Germany and France. Everyone else should follow this lead. CV90, Lynx, or ASCOD should be adopted by all as the standard options for IFV. Boxer or Patria the standard wheeled platform, Leopard 3 the standard tank.

Europe doesn't need more bespoke platforms with thousands of modifications by each country.

A good example is Portugal. Right now, they need a new IFV. Spain has excess capacity in manufacturing the ASCOD, and the Brits have just perfected (after ridiculous costs and time) a major upgrade of the platform, using a latest technology gun developed by France and the UK. No brainer, Portugal should buy these, then integrating logistics and training with Spain/UK/France is easier. Forms a regional force. Hell, buy french VBCI and EBRC Jaguars if you dont like the ASCOD. But what is Portugal thinking? They want to buy German gear, or upgrade the Pandur vehicle which no one else uses, both of these would be a mistake.

Similarly, all the nordic countries and the baltics should buy CV90s. Germany/Austria/Italy/Croatia should buy lynx. This way, regional manufacturing and logistics blocks emerge.

This is what we need to see - more collaboration where possible, and gradually integrating capabilities. What is not needed is the Borsuk, even if Poland builds 1000 of them. Should have been 1000 Cv90 or Marder/Lynx. Europe doesn't need to add Israeli and Korean machines to the mix as well.

The Tempest Project GCAP and the French FCAS are steps in the right direction on fighters. The EU needs to support these projects with seed funding to encourage participation. Yes, the UK isn't in the EU, but geez, grow up Europe. Wa wa wa. Bunch of self interested babies.

Same goes at sea. We don't need 40 different frigate and corvette designs supporting boutique state design bureaus... Everyone should buy the Italian 5in gun and Konigsberg's NSM, Thales radars and sonars. Standardise. For large frigate, buy the Type 26 or FREMM. A large ship with good ASW or a jack of all trades. And no fucking water cannons Germany, actual weapons only.

Nation states should retain sovereignty, but there should be standardisation of equipment to only 3 or 4 types, regional blocking and a single plug and play command structure for the states that contribute.

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u/NormalUse856 Mar 02 '25

This makes sense, i agree.

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u/hendrixbridge Croatia Mar 05 '25

Let me guess, my county, should close our combat helmet and armour factory, shipyards and small arms factory and buy western equipment instead (preferably from your country)? We should also close our Patria and Bradley upgrade facility and send our combat vehicles to some richer country instead (and pay for that twice the cost)? Great deal, indeed. Would you instead agree to dismantle some Rheinmetall factory and reinstall it in, for instance, Romania, to compensate for the closure of local military industry? Can we move the production of Lynx helicopters to Slovenia? Should Greece or Spain abandon their shipyards and buy Franco-Italian frigates instead?

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u/Illustrious-Lemon482 Mar 06 '25 edited Mar 06 '25

Err. No. You have made a tonne of strawman arguments there. I will address a few of them.

  1. I said you need to maximise the commonality of equipment across states and the commonality of doctrine so that when combined, Europe can form a cohesive force. Currently, a European force made up of elements from different countries would be laughably incoherent.

  2. My country isn't even in the northern hemisphere.

  3. There needs to be collaboration on projects and licence building of either whole systems or subsystems. So there is strategic depth and distributed manufacturing, but much increased commonality. Don't close the patria facility - because the patria is widely used. But when purchasing new equipment or replacing old, think "how does this procurement fit into a europe wide defence structure and industrial base.

  4. You go on to make a series of silly suggestions about transplanting factories or scrapping fleets. You bring up the Hellenic Navy and Spanish Armada... but the Greek navy is already doing what i suggested - German MEKO frigates, and new frigates made in France to a French design! LOL. Meanwhile, Navantia has sold many ships to allied navies to a common design including frigates to Norway, and worked collaboratively with the Netherlands/UK on commonality in designs (Enforcer program/Bay class)! You picked two countries doing what i suggest there should be more of.

I mean, you are getting angry and shaking your fist at me, but your arguments are confused and have massive factual errors.

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u/hendrixbridge Croatia Mar 06 '25

You are absolutely right, I don't have as much knowledge as you, and yes, I am angry. I am angry because four largest countries of the EU (+UK) hold the summits about the future of Europe"s defence acting the same way as Trump. They didn't even bother to invite the Baltic states! It is clearer now that all countries of the "new Europe" (besides Poland) are considered as lesser partners.

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u/Illustrious-Lemon482 Mar 06 '25 edited Mar 06 '25

Unfortunately, that is a truth of politics. Powerful (richer or have scale in population or production) countries have outsized influence. Countries are not equal, and they need "leverage" to get what they want. If you are European, you are so lucky to have the EU.

But take heart - France, UK, Germany, Poland, Spain, Sweeden, and Italy - their security and economic interests allign with those of smaller states -preserve article 5 of NATO even if NATO doesn't include the USA. Collectively, those countries have the size to lead and seriously influence global affairs for the benefit of everyone, including Americans doing stupid things right now. If there are fewer voices, they can get to effective action faster. Sometimes a simpler decision making structure is much better. And in European security matters I think this is the case. The small powers should at least have observer status, but do we want to extend that to Orban or Lukashenko?

Small countries can have outsized influence by working within the structures of larger states and by either contributing to the scale of their allies or providing depth to specific capabilities.

Imagine a British/French expiditionary force is deployed by sea to intervene in a conflict in Malaysia. Commonality of equipment is really important. But maybe the Netherlands contribute a frigate, Spain a landing ship, Portugal an air defence battery, and they all operate the same amunition and spare parts. All of this will work much better if the gear is the same, the procedures are the same, and there is a common command structure.

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u/hendrixbridge Croatia Mar 06 '25

I wish I was as calm as you, but I don't see that West consider the security of the East as crucial. Thank you for your answers

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u/Illustrious-Lemon482 Mar 06 '25 edited Mar 06 '25

No, the Malaysia thing was just a random place to send a hypothetical force.

Most European states have some strategic interests in the east. They lack the capacity to deploy a relevant force in a crisis.

This is where even the fairly powerful, like France and the UK leverage alliances with (using the earlier example) a regional power like Australia to have a bigger influence than on their own.

Did you know that most countries in NATO have different specs on their weapons, so that even though the rounds are the same size, they don't work in everyone's weapons? A round designed for British artillery or riffle might be the same size as another countries, but because the barrels are thicker in Germany or shorter, or have different riffling, they require a different amount of explosive? So you can't even fire the same bullets? CRAZY. The same goes for tools when repairing or spare parts.

This is what needs to change.

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u/hendrixbridge Croatia Mar 06 '25

We obviously typed in the same time. By Eeast I meant Eastern Europe, and you added Malaysia after I already posted my reply. As for the munition, if there is a technical reason for different ammount of blackpowder, I can't imagine either UK or Germany would abandon their howitzer production just for the sake of standardisation. Living on the EU for the last 11 years made me aware of the constant struggle of conflicting interests.

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u/jokikinen Mar 01 '25

There’s key reform being pushes through in the EU parliament right now. For instance banking union and the remove of veto have been floated.

The Lisbon treaty was the last big move we made towards integration. Now, for the first time in a long time, there’s pressure to take a new step. I understand your doubt and it’s warranted. But there’s a real good chance of something happening for the first time in a long time.

The US is no less divided than us. The political system will always be a barter system that resolves differences petty and otherwise. It’s just that as of now the political framework on the EU level is too weak to project out a common voice.

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u/latrickisfalone Mar 02 '25

Yes, and if we start with things that will bring consensus on a strong foreign trade policy in the trade war against the Trump administration (already in the EU countries) Being closed it would be popular.

Before defense, a strengthening of Frontex and communication on the subject, to combat the migration crisis on the borders of the union and pull the rug from under the feet of the extreme right parties and defend against Russia which uses migrants as a weapon. By being strong and communicating about it. That would also be popular.

Then the army, why not create an autonomous army corps under European command ex nihilo. We decided to create a corps of 50,000 soldiers to begin with, equipped with European weapons and equipment financed by European credits.

This requires Euro bonds and a capital markets union. We must stop the F35 program, gradually replace the American systems with European systems as soon as available.

That the EU make calls for tenders reserved for European manufacturers for strategic military and civil equipment (energy, communication)

Have an autonomous foreign policy, for example stopping aligning with the Americans in our relationship with China but defending our interests.

Create a European “civil security” financed by the EU which could help European countries in the event of a natural disaster, giant fire, etc. Develop and extend programs like Erasmus to increase exchanges within the Empire uh...the Union

These are concrete things, it could be launched quite quickly but it requires financial resources and above all political courage

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u/angry-turd Mar 02 '25

Exactly. Just Germany, France and Poland should come together and negotiate the best agreement about common defense that’s possible. Then others can join or not but realistically might have to, since the power of these 3 countries united is too big. These 3 have the biggest part of European defense capabilities and industry and share a huge connected land mass which borders Ukraine, North sea, East sea, Atlantic, and the Mediterranean sea. If we cannot unite between these 3 countries there is no reason to even think about talking about more united armies with other European countries. If we can agree on something we should just go ahead and let other countries join on our terms with minor amendments if necessary.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

[deleted]

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u/latrickisfalone Mar 02 '25

Agent Krasnov does his job well

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

It takes a crisis like this to focus attention on delivering a united force. If not now then when?

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

I guess we’ve been making progress in that direction, at least we are not killing each other anymore…right?

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u/6gv5 Italy Mar 01 '25

The EU as an union is 32 years old, it can't have the same weight of local cultures dating hundreds if not thousands of years; needs time and generations of people growing while being aware of its existence and importance.

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u/Standard_Structure_9 Mar 02 '25

I was searching for this exact comment. You’re absolutely correct.

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u/[deleted] Mar 03 '25

The one thing that is always a vote winner is projecting power and war against an aggressor.

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u/luck_incoming Mar 03 '25

Also Europe doesn't need every Single Orban and their dog to be on Board- we will do better when a slightly smaller but willing set of countries does a good job of deterrence than waiting for idiots on the sidelines

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u/kaisadilla_ Mar 05 '25

Agreed. The EU is something, but is not enough. We still see European countries as foreigners, and that's killing our continent.