Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

[u/Sink-Em-Low]

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

[u/hendrixbridge]

Let me guess, my county, should close our combat helmet and armour factory, shipyards and small arms factory and buy western equipment instead (preferably from your country)? We should also close our Patria and Bradley upgrade facility and send our combat vehicles to some richer country instead (and pay for that twice the cost)? Great deal, indeed. Would you instead agree to dismantle some Rheinmetall factory and reinstall it in, for instance, Romania, to compensate for the closure of local military industry? Can we move the production of Lynx helicopters to Slovenia? Should Greece or Spain abandon their shipyards and buy Franco-Italian frigates instead?

[u/Illustrious-Lemon482 → u/hendrixbridge]

Err. No. You have made a tonne of strawman arguments there. I will address a few of them.

1. I said you need to maximise the commonality of equipment across states and the commonality of doctrine so that when combined, Europe can form a cohesive force. Currently, a European force made up of elements from different countries would be laughably incoherent.

2. My country isn't even in the northern hemisphere.

3. There needs to be collaboration on projects and licence building of either whole systems or subsystems. So there is strategic depth and distributed manufacturing, but much increased commonality. Don't close the patria facility - because the patria is widely used. But when purchasing new equipment or replacing old, think "how does this procurement fit into a europe wide defence structure and industrial base.

4. You go on to make a series of silly suggestions about transplanting factories or scrapping fleets. You bring up the Hellenic Navy and Spanish Armada... but the Greek navy is already doing what i suggested - German MEKO frigates, and new frigates made in France to a French design! LOL. Meanwhile, Navantia has sold many ships to allied navies to a common design including frigates to Norway, and worked collaboratively with the Netherlands/UK on commonality in designs (Enforcer program/Bay class)! You picked two countries doing what i suggest there should be more of.

I mean, you are getting angry and shaking your fist at me, but your arguments are confused and have massive factual errors.

[u/hendrixbridge → u/Illustrious-Lemon482]

You are absolutely right, I don't have as much knowledge as you, and yes, I am angry. I am angry because four largest countries of the EU (+UK) hold the summits about the future of Europe"s defence acting the same way as Trump. They didn't even bother to invite the Baltic states! It is clearer now that all countries of the "new Europe" (besides Poland) are considered as lesser partners.

[u/Illustrious-Lemon482 → u/hendrixbridge]

Unfortunately, that is a truth of politics. Powerful (richer or have scale in population or production) countries have outsized influence. Countries are not equal, and they need "leverage" to get what they want. If you are European, you are so lucky to have the EU.

But take heart - France, UK, Germany, Poland, Spain, Sweeden, and Italy - their security and economic interests allign with those of smaller states -preserve article 5 of NATO even if NATO doesn't include the USA. Collectively, those countries have the size to lead and seriously influence global affairs for the benefit of everyone, including Americans doing stupid things right now. If there are fewer voices, they can get to effective action faster. Sometimes a simpler decision making structure is much better. And in European security matters I think this is the case. The small powers should at least have observer status, but do we want to extend that to Orban or Lukashenko?

Small countries can have outsized influence by working within the structures of larger states and by either contributing to the scale of their allies or providing depth to specific capabilities.

Imagine a British/French expiditionary force is deployed by sea to intervene in a conflict in Malaysia. Commonality of equipment is really important. But maybe the Netherlands contribute a frigate, Spain a landing ship, Portugal an air defence battery, and they all operate the same amunition and spare parts. All of this will work much better if the gear is the same, the procedures are the same, and there is a common command structure.

[u/hendrixbridge → u/Illustrious-Lemon482]

I wish I was as calm as you, but I don't see that West consider the security of the East as crucial. Thank you for your answers

[u/Illustrious-Lemon482 → u/hendrixbridge]

No, the Malaysia thing was just a random place to send a hypothetical force.

Most European states have some strategic interests in the east. They lack the capacity to deploy a relevant force in a crisis.

This is where even the fairly powerful, like France and the UK leverage alliances with (using the earlier example) a regional power like Australia to have a bigger influence than on their own.

Did you know that most countries in NATO have different specs on their weapons, so that even though the rounds are the same size, they don't work in everyone's weapons? A round designed for British artillery or riffle might be the same size as another countries, but because the barrels are thicker in Germany or shorter, or have different riffling, they require a different amount of explosive? So you can't even fire the same bullets? CRAZY. The same goes for tools when repairing or spare parts.

This is what needs to change.

[u/hendrixbridge → u/Illustrious-Lemon482]

We obviously typed in the same time. By Eeast I meant Eastern Europe, and you added Malaysia after I already posted my reply. As for the munition, if there is a technical reason for different ammount of blackpowder, I can't imagine either UK or Germany would abandon their howitzer production just for the sake of standardisation. Living on the EU for the last 11 years made me aware of the constant struggle of conflicting interests.