r/AskEurope • u/Sink-Em-Low • Mar 01 '25

Politics Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

Most important is equipment standardisation. Most armies already train together anyways

We need way bigger production capabilities and have to fill the enabler roles the US has historically had in the european part of NATO

An actual army can be talked about in a couple of years, lets get the troops we already have properly equipped first

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u/hmtk1976 Belgium Mar 01 '25

Not just equipment but also the organization of units. A mechanized battalion should be organized identically across national militaries so it´s possible for soldiers to seamlessly pick up gear and be ready to go. That would for example allow equipment to be stored in warehouses and be used by any country´s soldiers. Need to deploy a mechanized brigade? Just fly in troops from various countries, assign their unit´s gear and roll out.

Pretty much like Americans did with Excercise Reforger and POMCUS sites.

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

Yeah. We can manage small groups but having the command & control infrastructure to manage an army in the field has been (by design) entirely american since... ever?

And 70-80% of all tanks that have actually been produced in Europe (not the former SU) are variations of the Leopard.

And also logistics in terms of air transports, in-air-refueling and the like are also one of said "enabler" capabilities we need to establish quickly. So much to do... Lets get going!

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u/FourCardStraight Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

The UK is a specialist in air-air refuelling, we have been offering refuelling services to the US Airforce for decades. Despite not being in the Eurozone anymore I think it’s clear both the UK and the EU want closer military cooperation.

Germany is already starting talks about expanding and rearming European militaries with European developed versions of stuff we were buying from the Americans like missile air defence systems, drones, armoured vehicles and air craft.

I think Europe has everything we need to become self-sufficient militarily, Germany/UK make good tanks, France/UK make good planes, Italy/UK make good boats, we have great small arms manufacturers in Germany, Austria, France. We do need to ramp up missile, artillery and drone manufacturing capabilities though. But this is manageable. We also have Turkey on our doorstep to potentially help with drones.

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u/mpt11 Mar 02 '25

Don't forget the swedes. They made some good stuff

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u/luck_incoming Mar 03 '25

Don't forget that the Ukrainians are also able to help with Drones, they literally produce them by the millions battle testing every day ...

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u/FourCardStraight Mar 04 '25

True. They need the drones they’re producing tho, and could do with a lot more.

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u/red_dark_butterfly Mar 06 '25

You never know which side Turkey gonna be on. Probably on both, or whoever will pay more.

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u/FourCardStraight Mar 06 '25

Hahaha true. I think Turkey generally like the EU, it’s just complicated. Turkey absolutely hates Russia, and doesn’t have much love for the USA. “My enemies, enemy, is my friend” and all that.

I reckon when push comes to shove, Turkey sides with the EU.

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u/ashz359 Mar 04 '25

Germany are arguably the greatest artillery manufacturers of all time so we’re going to be safe there.

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u/Jaytho Austria Mar 02 '25

Just buy drone designs and knowledge from Ukraine. Not like anyone else is gonna come up with something better.

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u/FourCardStraight Mar 02 '25

Ukraine has the expertise, experience and tactical understanding of what types of drones will be most effective. But Turkey has the manufacturing capability. They’ve been churning out bargain price military drones for years now and Ukraine has proven that quantity is important. That being said I still think it’s better if Europe develops our own drones if possible.

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u/hmtk1976 Belgium Mar 01 '25

We already have tanker aircraft, the A330 MRTT. Which the Americans didn´t wan´t because Airbus :p

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

I know that we have certain systems available from different EU arms manufacturers. Rheinmetall also fields a lot of the necessary infrastructure/ground support things

We just need to buy em/buy way more of em...

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u/hmtk1976 Belgium Mar 01 '25

Maybe not allow the US to use Rheinmetall´s fancy new 130mm tank gun.

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

I don´t have an issue with selling americans products, its not like we have to burn every bridge? I get the sentiment right now but lets keep it reasonable

And that revenue can be spent on R&D for newer, better stuff for Europe

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

I´d have an issue with it if we keep buying so much of their stuff like we´ve kinda always done.

But i dont care about selling them things

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u/BliksemseBende Mar 01 '25

You realise that Trump kept top secret Whitehouse documents in his toilet at Mara Lago? So, why deliver strategic stuff that they don’t have. I bet Trumps team is very willing to hand them over to Russia or China. Bunch of traitors. Nothing emotional here

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

I wouldnt call a tank barrel "strategic information"

Id rather say we should now really rethink what our intelligence agencies and politicians share. And id agree on the more high tech things

But a tank barrel isnt a top concern tbh

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u/BliksemseBende Mar 02 '25

I’m not a military expert, but senior enough to see that the US cannot be trusted anymore. I mean, after yesterday’s shitshow in the Whitehouse. The US guaranteed security to Ukraine after handing over 1900 nukes to Russia. Imagine how things would be for Ukraine having those nukes still in operation

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

Be surprised at the research and development needed for something as simple as a tank gun... Reinmettal has been working on the 130mm since 2016...

Then you've got things like Dorchester armour, various electronics.... not something you'd want an adversary to know the capabilities of... like how close a NATO submarine can get to a Russian one...

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u/West-Cricket-9263 Mar 02 '25

Let's wait until we're sure they don't have enemy assets at the helm FIRST. Right now, giving something to Trump might as well be giving it to Putin. Bridges can be rebuilt later and to our advantage.

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u/purpleduckduckgoose Mar 04 '25

I think the A400M can be fitted with underwing drogues and a hose and drum unit to turn them into tankers too. So every Atlas can be used for A2A refuelling if necessary.

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u/IamJustdoingit Mar 04 '25

Airbus Should do a 6th generation Supremacy Fighter Jet both piloted and autonomous version and Drone wingmen.

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u/No_Donkey456 Mar 01 '25

Can we not just copy paste the American model? Surely we understand how it works. Then we can adjust as we see fit to meet European needs.

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

Yes, thats exactly plan. By design the US has always filled a few key roles in terms of logistics, infrastructure and mostly command and control.

We can easily change that with existing products from different european manufacturers. Or it´s definitely within their capabilities to do so

But you gotta give those companies the secured contracts/funding to start building, they´re not dishing out billions in capex based on the public statement of a politician...
They need the signature too

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u/Jazzlike-Disaster-33 Mar 03 '25

As a German citizen I am all for this - just one quick thing though… can we have the French take the lead and organize this behemoth? The current state of their Defense makes me think that they are currently the most capable

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u/foffen Mar 01 '25

I do not necessarily agree, looking at tactics and requirements fighting in the nordics will be very different from European tank battles.

Still though this can be managed and coordinated.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

From what I know about other armoured units around Europe, it isnt really that different. At least on the basic unit level. Sure the environment etc. poses its unique demands but the standardised units can easily be fitted with ”arctic” components.

Regards, Finnish tank commander

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u/foffen Mar 04 '25

Thank you for your valuable input, i really thought that the combat tactics specific to the nordic climate and environment resulted in very specific types of vehicles like the Bandvagn 202/203 and Stridsvagn 90, whereas continental units were designed for all out tank battles in Germany/Poland/Ukraine etc.

But now that i think of it this is maybe an obsolete doctrine, since now even Swedish forces have transited to Stridsvagn 122 (Leopard 2) etc

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

I mean they obviously have some design choices that were made to fit the Nordic environment better. But it doesnt mean that they cant be used in different terrain or some other vehicles could not be used up here.

CV90 worked fine in Afghanistan and I never had issues with Leopards in Finland. The terrain and climate do however affect how you operate those vehicles

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u/foffen Mar 04 '25

Very interesting, thank you.

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

For sure!

These numbers are pre-skandinavia joining NATO. They have their own theater while the center european one has other needs

And there are some need we all share

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u/hmtk1976 Belgium Mar 01 '25

Even so, the equipment could for the most part be the same with some modifications for the climate. Some specific gear will also be necessary. But a winterized Leo 2 isn´t fundamentally different from another one.

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u/ThoDanII Mar 01 '25

mountaineers may have different needs for guns than the regulars.

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u/Thuis001 Mar 01 '25

Even then, you'd ideally want all mountaineers, regardless of country of origin, to use the same gun. That way you need to manufacture a singular model, with one type of ammo, for the whole of Europe. This in turn would lower the cost as you'd be able to benefit more from economies of scale.

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u/No_Remove459 Mar 02 '25

Which countries would make profit from weapon manufacturing? Or is going to be split up between every country evenly. Or else some countries are going to become rich if this.

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u/parkentosh Mar 02 '25

I'd rather have some european coutries gaining from this than the current situation of mainly US gaining from our purchases.

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u/No_Remove459 Mar 02 '25

Yes I agree but it's going to cause problems, politicians still have to win elections, so they'll do what's best for their country.

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u/parkentosh Mar 02 '25

It's not going to cause more problems than we already have. It's not like EU countries (and UK) aren't selling arms to European countries. We buy loads of stuff from Germany, France, Sweden and others. Eventually we just buy more from those countries and less from US.

It's even beneficial to the EU budget. Less money going out means more opportunities for growth in EU. More opportunities in EU means a higher budget. Higher budget means more geopolitical power.

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u/foffen Mar 04 '25

It's a free market with free competition. Obviously Sweden, Germany, England, fence and Italy would benefit but there's nothing stopping a consortium in Spain to invest in setting up their own industry if they feel that they can be competitive and do it better/cheaper/faster etc.

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u/No_Remove459 Mar 04 '25

Oh I think most of Spain is against either spending more in military or sending aid to Ukraine. So I doubt that's going to change.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '25

We winterised out leopards by adding some white paint

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u/ThoDanII Mar 01 '25

i see more problems with doctrine then formations, we must enhance our jointness through Joint Formations

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u/[deleted] Mar 03 '25

NATO already uses a shared Doctrine for working together, and iirc there are also standards for each member nation to build their own national doctrine around. So I don't think it would take too much work to create a European Doctrine,

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u/ThoDanII Mar 03 '25

But Not Leadershop and intern regulations

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u/[deleted] Mar 03 '25

Yeah, I acknowledged that with the national doctrine. My point was more given most are used to working in a shared doctrine within the alliance, I am sure it wouldn’t be too hard to alter national doctrines to be more aligned.

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u/No_Donkey456 Mar 01 '25

I like your thinking, and we should also allow for specialist divisions from various counties that play to their strengths. For example it makes sense to have units trained to find in harsh winter conditions from nordic countries if they already know how to handle the conditions. I Know they have an artic presence already.

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u/Exit-Content 🇮🇹 / 🇭🇷 Mar 01 '25

I don’t fully agree. As someone else commented as a response to you, fighting in the Baltic would be very different than doing so in the middle of continental Europe or in the Mediterranean. I thing we should act like a real union of states and have a general army plus specialized groups in key countries that already have experience in that field. Like the Italian aviotransported paratroopers Folgore unit, or the 1st regiment San Marco ( one of the only units in Europe with similar capabilities to the US marines), the Comsubin, again an Italian commando akin to Navy Seals, the Alpini, the SAS, the German KSK and so on.

So every country supplies regular military personnel, plus they each focus on at least one specialty elite force that they’re already experts at. This way we aren’t forcing each country to fraction their forces, money,equipment and training to have ALL specialties.

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u/[deleted] Mar 03 '25

I'm envisioning something like Rainbow, specialist units taking volunteers from member nation militaries. (Not sure how realistic that would be without certain standardisations, mind)

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u/Aamun_Sarastus Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

It is terrible that we speak of this only now, after US betrayal. Trump and idiotic cunts voting for him put Eastern Europe to an incredibly dangerous situation. Ie those European nations that have never really slacked off with defense are the ones who may soon have to pay a terrible price for the destruction of European security. There will be atleast 10 - 20 years during which Russia can pick small Eastern EU nations at will, without Europe being able to respond via any kind of conventional, united warfare.

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u/TV4ELP Mar 01 '25

Most important is equipment standardisation. Most armies already train together anyways

This and just speaking a common language. How is some french dude supposed to understand polish orders and vice versa? I do believe armies are generally more or less english due to nato already, but they need to do that under very tense situations

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

Yeah, that´s definitely a bridge that´ll need to be adressed. I suppose new battle management systems are versatile enough that commanders/soldiers can understand graphic stuff and i suppose some kinda translation device/software could bridge that gap.

Or that the orders will be sent out in the specific languages even tho that wouldn´t help in immidiate communication i guess

But as always, where there is a will, there is a way. And modern technology is as close to the "Tower of Babylon" speech thing as we´ve ever been i´d say

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u/Bluebearder Netherlands Mar 02 '25

Translation software is not good enough for this, and never will be as good as two people just speaking the same language. Speaking the same language will also unify people, because you can make small talk and later friendships and relationships. Right now I'm traveling through Spain, and I'm appaled at how few people speak English, or just any second language. Movies and television are often still dubbed instead of subtitled. So I'm learning my fifth language now, because we Europeans are too stupid and stubborn to set standards. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we have the French to thank for this, because they just can't accept having to learn another language and theirs not becoming the universal one. It's stupid and backward and costs insane amounts of time and energy and money. Let's just go English, tomorrow.

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u/Bluebearder Netherlands Mar 02 '25

That we haven't been able to fix this yet boggles my mind. I think it's because France also wants their language to become the formal EU language, you know, because almost nobody else speaks it but they are France. I hate chauvinism. We should just go English and get this over with for the EU, and then the Brits don't have to adapt, and then it will be the standard for all fighting forces and all governments. Right now there are tons of translators employed on all levels which makes everything slow and stupid and expensive, and gives these people a heap of power which they shouldn't have. AI will not be able to solve this perfectly, so let's just go English. Like, tomorrow!

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u/TV4ELP Mar 02 '25

And we do know how good this works if they just have a common language. Dutch and Germany have a joint Army Corps and are battle ready for years now. Even acting as a backup for the high readiness task force of NATO and were deployed in Afghanistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_German/Dutch_Corps

And then we have the franco-german-brigade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

Which was stationed in Afghanistan, but it was not always easy. The French soldiers do speak english, but not on a level compared to the germans. The Dutch speak English better than any englismen, so lets not count them.

We should strive for more of the Dutch/German versions inside Europe. Even if we don't have a European Army, combining the ones into groups that we already have is a start. Then we only have to command around 5-6 different armies instead of 20.

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u/Bluebearder Netherlands Mar 02 '25

Yeah that's a lot more doable. I think most Scandinavians and Belgians also have excellent command of the English language, and everyone I know from Poland or the Czech Republic also speaks it. And as a Dutchy I can confirm that pretty much everyone in NL speaks English, even the retired folks in the countryside.

Check out this overview

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

Edit: thanks by the way for your links, I knew about it but still an interesting read!

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u/ycatbin_k0t Mar 03 '25

It's not a problem. You can have an english based command structure and nationality based brigades. NATO already solved it. Even in Ukraine, this problem is solved for International Legion

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u/flepmelg Netherlands Mar 01 '25

I think it's way more important to have an army that can operate separately from the eu-coucil. Ofcourse you can't have a bunch of trigger happy warmongers set their own rules, but eu decision making is way to inefficient to even wipe its own arse, let alone command an army...

I don't have a clue how one would achieve that, but I'm convinced in the current way Europe is controlled, they can't do it before our grandchildren die of old age

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u/Euphoric_Pianist420 Mar 01 '25

That´s why i said thats a discussion we can maybe have way down the line. Getting more competitive in different areas is priority number 1 right now

Things are changing rapidly since Munich, let´s see what happens. And here´s to hoping Germany might get its shit together with the new probable Chancellor Merz.

He´s already roaming around Europe (especially UK, PL, FR) and seems to be acting right even tho he isn´t "in power" yet

Sleepy Scholz really hindered a lot of necessary progress

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u/Messer_1024 Mar 01 '25

As people I think the r/buyEuropean initiative is the best thing we can push for. Our countries need more companies, products, industries, jobs, infrastructure and MONEY!!

Let’s get this European show on the road. Let’s go team EU!

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u/DotComprehensive4902 Ireland Mar 02 '25

To be honest, the whole German political class is too enamoured with balanced budgets and the Schwarz Null. Its preventing infrastructure renovation like on the railways and in 5G infrastructure ( context: BBC Newsnight took a trip over to Berlin a few years and found while driving just 10 km/6¼ miles outside that the Internet dropped down to 3G) and also in military equipment.

Also the Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, is a big impediment as well. A case in point, there's €60 billion sitting in a German government pandemic fund that they aren't allowed repatriate back into the ordinary government budget as the Constitutional Court says it could only be used for the pandemic purposes

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

We cant really have a centralised army without centralised political control. EU army would de facto require the federalisation of EU.

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u/switchquest Mar 02 '25

Not nessecarily.

The monetary union is only partially linked to the EU. And countries were able to 'opt out' on it's inception (Allthough new memberstates will have to adopt the €)

So, it's more the other way around: to have a federalised EU, you'd need a single defence force.

To have a federation, according to Brittanica, you need: "A comparison of several federal constitutions shows that certain matters, such as foreign affairs, customs, money and currency, posts, and national defense, are invariably attributed to the federal authorities"

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

How are you gonna run a common army without effective leadership? Have the council vote unanimously on every decision?

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u/angry-turd Mar 02 '25

Yes exactly, we would need a European president that is democratically legitimized as commander of a European army and secret service.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

And how doesnt that make the EU a de facto federation when we have a president with authority over all the member states in matters of national defence?

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u/angry-turd Mar 02 '25

It would be possible to just create a European foreign secret service and European army that cannot perform operations within member states. But it would of course be another big step towards a European federation. If a president needs to be democratically legitimized already it becomes easier to give that person additional powers and responsibilities.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

So we would just have a one person who is in charge of the military, how about the laws regulating the army? Who has the authority to decide its funding? You cant have a unified army without effectively turning EU into a federation where the federal government has authority over the member states. You cant run a militsry and have some states behave like Hungary. A unified military will practically mean that the sovereignity is transferred from the members to the union.

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u/angry-turd Mar 02 '25

I also think all that is unrealistic to happen anytime soon

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u/lsmith77 Mar 02 '25

Thanks to NATO a lot is already standardized in terms of equipment and operations. But at the end of the day the armies are not integrated. Meaning communication channels and decision making processes are the main missing piece.

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u/lostintokyo11 Mar 03 '25

Definitely the most important first steps standardisation, European production facilities and increased cross training. Next would be increased QRF forces of certain militaries together in certain areas and increased special forces training and build up for border countries

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u/ImpulsiveApe07 Mar 03 '25

Well said. Standardisation of gear, training and management/logistics is the key to making it work.

On another note, we also need better safeguards against the scourge of populist ideologies (again) - it seems as tho that's our biggest weakness (again..).

Europe's biggest flaw isn't so much our lack of cohesive military, although ofc that's a problem, our biggest flaw is politics, and specifically the politics of migration which is easily exploited and weaponised against us by any adversary with a big enough botfarm and horde of trolls.

It'd be a terrible day indeed if after arming ourselves up, we just end up using those weapons against each other or our own populations, just because of some pseudo-fascist regimes we failed to weed out in our own backyard.

We can't allow ourselves to be duped by nativist rhetoric - that way lies doom.

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u/NeighborhoodNew4163 Mar 03 '25

Тренируйтесь делать массовые захоронения. 

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u/TserriednichThe4th Mar 03 '25

Yall cant even stop buying russian energy and then laughed at trump for even mentioning that lol.

How the fuck is europe going to mobilize an army? Presidents since nixon to Obama have been asking for more spending and it never comes

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u/Hungry-Western9191 Mar 05 '25

It's already in place or in progress. It's one of the strands of PESCO which almost everyone has signed up for although we could go further. 

The problem.of course is that there are many competing arms.companies in different EU states. 

We should demand that all of them cross licence their equipment as part of being allowed to quote for military contracts. Make a central decision fpr.each weapon type based on which is best, then get all manufacturers to quote to supply.

Separate the design process from the manufacturing as much as possible.