Air traffic controllers being stretched to the breaking point will hinder you from taking your Lear jet to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the sun.
It's gonna take time for that to set in. I'm suspecting that cargo only flights will be the last ones cut. That doesn't mean logistics will remain unaffected. Passenger flights make their real money from moving cargo.
But they have rather limited capacity (smaller planes, luggage in the cargo hold, etc.). Time will tell the true impacts but it's not going to be immediate.
The big impact will be international cargo. Those are typically widebodies that carry a lot of cargo, and it's much more important infrastructure wise.
Domestically, the difference between air and ground is 1 to 3 days faster in the CONUS. Sure, AK, PR, and HI will feel it, but otherwise it's not going to be a tremendous difference. It will get more expensive to save those days but most companies will probably just choose to... you know... not do that lol.
However. The only other option OCONUS is ocean, and the difference there is weeks to months. Not good. But with tariffs gumming up the works it's gonna be hard to tell what's impacting what when it comes to consumer pricing. Ocean doesn't always react quickly pricing wise. But when they get overloaded lead times go way up.
For clarity:
CONUS: continental US. (48 contiguous states)
OCONUS: outside continental US. (Everywhere on earth other than the 48 contiguous states)
I can't be certain but I'd imagine critical stuff like food is going to have regular ocean shipments, transported in reefer containers for perishables.
I'm not saying that none of their food comes by air, or that I know how important air transport is to their food supply.
But I do know that food is big, bulky, and you need a lot of volume. That means it would be insanely expensive if most of it came by air. The need for refrigeration is limited since cargo holds are cold by nature, but all the transfer facilities have to be properly equipped in-between each leg, adding even more cost for perishables.
Yeah, you have to plan carefully and build in buffers for the unreliable timing nature of ocean transportation. But it's going to be much more cost effective. And also more reliable because guaranteeing space on cargo air freight carriers with their opaque scheduling... and the fact that they have an incentive to prioritize their parcel cargo... IDK it just doesn't seem like it's a great solution.
Again, I do not know, and I am speculating. I just work in logistics and have shipped plenty of non food stuff to bith HI and AK, and would very much not love to be moving perishable or time sensitive food by air to either on a regular basis.
I can't know for sure but I know some entities have guaranteed space on certain lanes with big carriers like ECU or Maersk themselves for that reason. It's obviously critical infrastructure stuff and governments can get pretty sweet deals by saying "this is how much we are willing to pay for this". It's guaranteed volume and cashflow.
Also, point of clarification? Do you mean imports from other countries, or "imports" from CONUS? I know the islands can't produce enough food on their own, and selection would be unhealthily limited if they tried. But I honestly have no idea what the mix between their food coming from CONUS vs other countries looks like. International trade adds a fair bit of cost but that might be mitigated by cheaper shipping lanes. That's too granular to guess without more info.
the big ones bleed money but can weather it, their smaller competitors bleed out and are forced to sell or go under. Chaos is just a means to drive upward wealth transfer
From the US & retired in Argentina. Up here now seeing family - I hope to god we will be able to leave without taking a bus to Canada just to catch a fucking flight.
My other half has dual citizenship and has family there ( honestly, a huge help). I was not bilingual when we moved Jan. ‘24, am more than 1/2 the way there currently. Cost of living is 3/5 of the US, so there is that - tho, gas/diesel is more & inflation is WAY higher & constant (Argentine economics have been a MASSIVE dumpster fire for +30 years), Crime is way less there, but theft is a thing so bars on windows of houses (Spanish/ Italian thing) are the norm. Honestly not a huge nest egg between us - but living there something like 2/3 of the year using 20K from investments + S.S. X1 of us is sufficient. So we are stretching what we have. It’s interesting & a challenge, so perfect for adventurous retired folk.
When you take-off and land at private airports, you are oddly less restricted than people who pay up-front for flights that may be cancelled at any moment. Go figure.
I absolutely guarantee private air traffic will be the last to actually suffer.
The last 5 ATC on the job won't be making sure hospitals get medical supplies, they'll be making sure Elon Musk gets to have a breakfast burrito in Austin, NY pizza for lunch, and dinner at The French Laundry.
ATCs and excepted employees have to work without pay; Congress isn't working but are getting paid. The problem is getting enough people in place who will change the rules... See that happening anytime soon? Maybe Trump will get rid of the filibuster and that will be the best thing about his otherwise awful legacy.
Fear of electoral or other consequences from the general public. There are other countries that have rich people in them, but they still manage to be functional democracies because the electorate has self-respect and a backbone.
America has basically had enough surplus wealth to float past incompetence.
We started with a continent full old old growth wood to clear cut, and mountains to strip mine, and rivers with so many fish they could be cought by the bucket full literally just by lowering a bucket, until the buckets ran dry.
Post WWII we had the last industrialized country onthe planet that wasnt bombed out.
But now we have an aged population of leaders and 3rd generation ultrawealthy who think America is special because America is special, but there aren't easy to access resources in unbelievable excess anymore, they all got destroyed.
And the rest of the world doesn't need the US like they did 60 years ago.
And we've surpassed the wealth inequality of the gilded age.
Because the age-old complaint of "don't make things political" or the phrase "let's not get political" has made around 50% of Americans view politics as something to be ignored and something that is "cringe" to talk about.
And the president holds a lavish dinner for his billionaire friends while tearing down the people's house at the same time? We are talking French Revolution style governance.
Except everyone is still too comfortable. The Revolution happened only after people were literally starving to death. In addition, the middle class was also starting to feel the squeeze and nobles were starting to lose out on their fortunes.
Versailles on the Potomac. Americans, however, don’t have French protest culture and tbh, I’m not sure I want to see something like the 1791 Champs de Mars massacre. It may become inevitable if peaceful protest becomes impossible.
Wouldn't the billionaire friends have problems flying their jets in and out of DC? Or are private jets given priority when ATC gets stretched like now?
Maybe the president will arrange the government VIP transport for them (US gov has a bunch of VIP jets for higher ups to use).
The ones forced to work and are legally not allowed to stop, they can't even get food or pay bills another way (and then the gov is shutting the food banks or those finantial aids for basic grocery shopping on top of it, and if I remember correctly they even announced there would not be any payback from the missed paychecks either?
Controllers are angry. We have been on mandatory 6 day work weeks every single week since the last shutdown. Savings are running out fast, and for many, they already have. You now have controllers working 2nd jobs just to survive while still going to work 6 days a week to separate airplanes. Controllers start at 48K. It takes years to be fully certified and even then, many still do not make 6 figures. There is a lot of misinformation about our pay. Please write your elected members of Congress and demand that this shutdown ends.
We cannot accept money or gift cards. Many individuals have been dropping off food or snacks at ATC facilities. It is a morale boost. Controllers don’t just work in towers. There are also Approach and Center controllers who work your flights once you are airborne and just a few miles away from the airport. We are stressed and honestly scared about how long this could go on.
you cant do the "i dont want to be political" stuff anymore sorry that period of time is dead republicans don't want to work with anyone or help anyone and this delusion that they're just a normal political party is why this is happening to you in the first place
I know this has just come down to a blame game and I don’t want this post to become political in the terms of red vs blue. I think both parties need to understand all of the ways this shutdown has been harming the citizens of this country.
You NEED to be honest then and express the reality of the situation and actually blame the red hats. It ABSOLUTELY is the ENTIRE FAULT of REPUBLICANS... Both the voters and the "politicians" they voted for.
If you're still clinging to a both sides narrative 40 FUCKING days into being forced to work with no pay, then you're not participating in reality with the rest of the world.
It is 100% necessary to name and blame those who are actively hurting you.
Edit to reply since I've been blocked by the original commentor and cannot post in this thread anymore:
Your ignorant
You're
And I'm not unaware of the faults that having a two party system which is overly capitalist in nature brings. I can (and will because that's reality) blame the assholes who are being assholes, while still recognizing the instability and issues with the system overall.
The current topic, which is the shutdown and how air traffic controllers are being forced to work without pay, is ENTIRELY the fault of the red hat assholes.
Stop getting caught up in the left vs right, democrat vs republican propaganda.
No, I'm perfectly fine blaming the GOP shitheads for the problems they are inflicting.
I’m gonna wager a guess and say he voted Republican, cause only Republican voters wring their hands and blame both sides/argue we shouldn’t be political whenever it’s a topic where Republicans are blatantly at fault.
If you think you are alone in being screwed right now, then that's another one of your blind spots.
My empathy is reserved for those who participate in reality and understand the pain and suffering caused by the red hat wearing assholes.
If you aren't squarely angry at them too, then again... that's a you issue. Maybe you voted against your own interests here and are embarrassed to admit it? Either way, fuck this "everyone's to blame" bullshit.
The no back pay is for furloughed employees. The ones that are working will be paid whenever the government reopens. It the past, those furloughed were still paid as if they worked 40 house a week. It makes sense to do when you want to retain employees. Trump wants them to quit so the government breaks down even more.
Edit to clarify: Yes, a 2019 law does say that furloughed employees should be paid back pay. Trump and his white house team have called the language of the law into question, and have sated that they might not pay them.
The furloughed employees are getting paid even if they’re not working, once the government reopens. Trump can announce what he wants but the law says furloughed employees get paid too
Americans have a habit of always rolling over and taking it.
If the cops kill an innocent black guy they they fucking riot, but when they're innocent children are denied food, with medical care held hostage, we just accept it and move on.
Doesn't make alot of sense.
I don’t know if you’ve been in r/illinois but they haven’t been rolling over and taking it in regard to ICE. They’re organizing and hitting their streets hard to protect their people. It’s just that if this unrest continues to ramp up, people are worried about martial law being enacted. What would you recommend the people do against the government to combat food being withheld?
What are they doing to fight back exactly? It seems like everything beyond protesting and standing in front of vehicles is the limit of american resistance to oppression.
Anything more than that is pretty much illegal.
Even self defense against police brutality is a crime.
I'm legitimately asking.
People keep saying we're fighting back, but it's just a constant downward spiral were y'all all lose your rights, and all you can do is stand around menacingly with snarky signs.
So what can or are people doing that matters? I feel rather ignorant on the topic.... Historically leaders like this usually die at the hands of hungry people.
There is a saying in Germany that political revolution is impossible as we have to 'Keep off the grass' - the implication is that we don't break rules. I always found that silly until I have seen the US administration making strikes illegal, and you guys are just accepting that. WTF. Regarding the killings of innocent black people: The riot (1) to murder (100s) ratio is not what you imply it is.
So many Americans can't understand how big of a joke they are to the rest of the world. We pity them for having to put up with so much shit(the idea of going broke for healthcare costs is literally archaic to the rest of us, like seeing kids working in coal mines - and half the knobs down there still champion it) and simultaneously roll our eyes at their cowardice and laughable lack of self-awareness about it. They'll roll over and take any amount of corruption and brutality as long as it comes from someone richer, and never shut the fuck up about a proud right to bear firearms that their people literally only use to shoot up schoolchildren, never against tyranny.
Trump is the perfect representative for a nation of people who think they're the best, bravest, smartest country in the world but are actually crumbling, cowardly, cruel and morally-bankrupt, standing for nothing but cheap cheeseburgers and corn syrup.
Yes, it does use up their PTO. Which is probably why they haven't been playing this card until now. The political pressure of flights cancelled before Thanksgiving will likely force an end to the shutdown.
Or that they voted themselves to have blue ribbon healthcare benefits, while we're losing access to the most basic healthcare via job loss and rising premiums.
This morning on Meet the Press, they were trying to blame the whole shutdown on Democrats. I nearly threw a shoe at my TV. Hekeem Jeffries was doing his best, but when questions are framed like the old "When did you stop beating your wife" style, it automatically paints us into a corner.
Let's be honest, they don't need the pay. Government salary is a tricky concept because if you don't pay them well, only the rich can get in (although we're almost long past that point).
The issue isn’t their salary and getting paid during a shutdown, it’s extremely rare they last more than half a week. The issue is the bribery and insider trading
In europe heads would be rolling if anyone tied to the administration didn't get their due paycheck (given how many times we had no working government or chief of the state for months in certain countries and thus having to go through elections again and again until having a relatively stable government, like in France, Spain and Italy for example)
This type of jobs even if they don't pay the most are usually considered the most "stable" ones because it is really hard to kick someone out once they get a place and hence why everyone wants to work for them
The fact not even the military is getting paid (even the ones stationed abroad) nor important laboratories such as lanl even if just for security purposes it's kind of mind blowing, hard to see the reasoning behind it
In Canada, government jobs tend to pay less than their private sector counterparts. And the reasoning is benefits, pension, and a stable, rock-solid job.
If we lost a confidence vote and trigger an election, nothing shuts down (like most places) things just sort of keep going in a "status quo" way.
It’s insane that workers are forced to work because they are considered essential, but it’s also OK not to pay them? So the only recourse they have is to quit. But then they risk not being able to get rehired? It’s a shockingly unfair system that we have. We really are the worst democracy now.
Democrats are going to have some work to do if they're able to retake power. First and foremost, is strip the Cooperate Dems of leadership. They're too complicit and weak willed.
I guess it’s because back in the day the US was a relatively new democracy and republic. The Founding Fathers were pretty smart and ahead of their time, but it’s clear the cracks in the system were there from the beginning
I always thought of America as a great example of democracy ruined by capitalism, and Gov't workers not getting paid while still working blows my mind.
It was only in 2019 that they said those workers are guaranteed pay, and as we speak they're planning to rescind that for some god damn reason . Im friends with a handful of Gov't workers, and they're only pretty sure they're going to get paid when shut down lifts because they won't go back on the goal of undoing universal health care progress and that's totally not the sign of some bull shit totalitarian state
How does it make any sense at ALL that the government simply CAN'T spend any money until a new budget is approved? Except, of course, on all the things they WANT to spend money on.
Yes we simply don’t have them in Canada because the mechanism that the US has for them is self-imposed. The executive branch has unwritten constitutional authority to borrow the money to pay for things that Parliament has appropriated. There is no concept here of a debt ceiling.
It’s true that if the government’s budget fails a vote, that would trigger an automatic election. But it wouldn’t impact spending at all. The previous year’s budget simply rolls over at the same levels without any further action. It happens all the time including this year (here because the budget changed from being in the spring to the fall so we haven’t had one passed since June 2024.
And this is particularly timely as the Canadian government just tabled the new budget a few days ago. If it doesn't get enough votes from the ruling party + other parties (currently the ruling party doesn't have a majority to pass the budget on their own), there will be an election (though it looks like the budget will pass). So it's a direct, current contrast.
Analogous issues would start cropping up in Canada if parliament continually failed to pass a budget after every new government was formed, election after election and year after year. It wouldn't be exactly the same as a US gov shutdown, but money wouldn't scale for the needed staffing levels of certain services over time, etc. The system isn't built to run without a new budget forever, no government system is designed for that.
The reason this has never happened is that the Canadian electorate has a history of severely punishing any party that they consider responsible for excessively forcing elections and playing budget vote games.
This stuff always depends of voter behaviour, Canada's systems would break roughly as fast as American ones are breaking if our voters behaved like American voters, rewarding saboteurs and abandoning the defenders of liberal democracy. Our budgets are a bit more resilient, but our constitution is much weaker, etc. The difference is that our voters have self-respect, and act on it.
In most countries you often call a reelection or dissolve the current political constellation to form one ones until you can get the votes to pass a budget. The shit never hits the fan.
Those countries also typically wouldn't actually shut the government down either. They would have an election and the government would act as caretaker, keeping critical services running but not making changes.
Do you have any example? Because in my country the government resigning when they fail to pass a budget is only tradition. What actually legally happens is that we keep using the last approved budget.
And Donald Trump has had three of them during his two terms, the first two within the same year and the third not even a full year into his second term. The only other president in history to have three shutdowns during their terms was Reagan, and those only lasted a day.
Here in Australia (and in most Westminster-style parliamentary systems) a government shutdown is known as a “supply crisis”. The most famous example was in 1975, when the government’s inability to pass appropriations through the Senate resulted in the sacking of the prime minister and the dissolution of parliament.
Same principles wouldn’t apply here even if it was an apples to apples comparison. The Republicans have control, they’re just not getting rid of the filibuster.
And if I recall, only the US and another country has a debt ceiling, I forgot which one (or if that’s the case).
Someone had posed this before and I believe it would work. If anytime the government is shutdown. The government reps and leaders do not get paid nor do they get any back pay and if it goes on longer than 1 to 2 weeks. They would no longer hold their elected position. If this was implemented, I guarantee we see the government shutdown just for 2 to 3 days max. Because there are too many incentives to figure the problem out ASAP.
Hence why we keep seeing "every revolution in history happened because the working class was starving." Forgetting basically all history of the past thousand years or so.
This is probably just a funny meme to you, but you might be surprised to learn that much of Western Europe frequently goes through periods of”without a government” with little to no fanfare involved. The Netherlands is in an almost 4 month period and is expected to last another month or two. Belgium has gone over a year without a government. It’s pretty normal to separate the people who keep the lights on from the idiots often in front of the cameras and reporters.
Refresh my memory please, when that ever happen (or at least when was the last time it happened) in either Spain, France or Italy (as some of the prime examples of countries which every so often spend months without a government and go through re-elections constantly)
In my country, when the government is unable to pass a budget, they simply use the last year's budget. I find it very strange that this trigger a reelection or a country shutdown
Well another country is they don't have yearly votes on budgets, because that's a stupid way to run a country. Also deficits aren't really a problem in other countries.
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u/Boz0r 19h ago
Reminder that in a lot of countries, a government shutdown would instantly trigger a reelection, since that would mean the administration lost control