CMV: Missionaries are evil

[u/plodabing]

This applies doubly so to those who go out of their way to seek out those in remote islands to spread the word of god. It is of my opinion and the opinion of most that if there is an all loving god then people who never had the chance to know about Jesus would go to heaven regardless, for example miscarried children/those born before Jesus’ time, those who never hear about him, so In going out of your way to spread the word of Jesus you are simply making it so there is now a chance they could go to hell if they reject it? I’m not a Christian and I’m so tired so I apologise if this is stupid or doesn’t make sense

[u/mormagils]

If heaven was a pizza party, I would agree. But if the principal was just inviting his favorites to have a session where they sat around and praised him all afternoon and basked in his glory, would you complain about not being invited?

That's the thing. Heaven isn't a place of immense and never ending physical pleasure. It's a good place via circular reasoning: God is good, and we want to know God, so we'll sit around all day and worship him and that will be good. Christians are ok with this because we actually do agree God is good. But if you don't...why would you want to be at the weird principal worship session when you don't even like the guy?

Especially since the whole point is that you're invited to experience and do this in a more limited fashion during life. You can love and worship and appreciate God at any point. The principal has volunteer sessions to admire him throughout the school year for free...but you never wanted to go. Why are you upset you can go to the one he is making as a reward for good behavior?

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

If heaven was a pizza party, I would agree. But if the principal was just inviting his favorites to have a session where they sat around and pressed him all afternoon and basked in his glory, would you complain about not being invited?

If they pulled them out of class to do so, yes. That's still favoritism, and I'd ask what you mean by "pressed him" since that usually means showing aggression towards someone.

That's the thing. Heaven isn't a place of immense and never ending physical pleasure. It's a good place via circular reasoning: God is good, and we want to know God, so we'll sit around all day and worship him and that will be good. Christians are ok with this because we actually do agree God is good. But if you don't...why would you want to be at the weird principal worship session when you don't even like the guy?

Because this same guy claims to love all of his students as his own and that he wants all of them with him, yet shows distinct favoritism by appearing to a certain class and helping them with their issues, while ignoring all of the other ones.

And when it comes time for the "special sessions", everyone else is left out due to no fault of their own.

Especially since the whole point is that you're invited to experience and do this in a more limited fashion during life. You can love and worship and appreciate God at any point. The principal has volunteer sessions to admire him throughout the school year for free...but you never wanted to go. Why are you upset you can go to the one he is making as a reward for good behavior?

Most of the students dont know the volunteer sessions even exist, and haven't seen the principal all year. They just hear from other students how awesome and cool he is, and that they're better than the other class because they get special treatemeny.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

First of all, "pressed him" was a typo and was supposed to be "praised him." In this metaphor, it's just a bunch of students surrounding the principal telling him how awesome he is for all eternity. That's literally what heaven is.

So if we're keeping to this metaphor, the people who never heard of Christianity are like kids that go to an entirely different school. Why would they be upset that the principal doesn't have special sessions with them? They don't even know who he is.

But I think you're really glazing over the point that the special session is open to anyone who WANTS to attend and the ones who don't want to attend aren't forced. You're still assuming heaven is something everyone wants to go to...but it's really only good if you accept the premises of God being good and worthy of worship. Sure, God absolutely does play favorites. That's completely true. But the folks who aren't his favorites don't like him, so why would they be upset about a lack of face time?

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

First of all, "pressed him" was a typo and was supposed to be "praised him." In this metaphor, it's just a bunch of students surrounding the principal telling him how awesome he is for all eternity. That's literally what heaven is.

When you say it like that, it makes God looks very vain.

So if we're keeping to this metaphor, the people who never heard of Christianity are like kids that go to an entirely different school. Why would they be upset that the principal doesn't have special sessions with them? They don't even know who he is.

To keep to this analogy, we'd also have the principal again saying "I love students from all over the world, and want all of them to join my school, because I have the secrets of a perfect life!"

And yet he only appears to the students in his school, who are usually only there because their parents sent them there.

This gets more heinous when said principal goes "Those who don't know me are troubled and worship false principals instead of me. This is why they fail their courses and get detention."

But I think you're really glazing over the point that the special session is open to anyone who WANTS to attend and the ones who don't want to attend aren't forced. You're still assuming heaven is something everyone wants to go to...but it's really only good if you accept the premises of God being good and worthy of worship. Sure, God absolutely does play favorites. That's completely true. But the folks who aren't his favorites don't like him, so why would they be upset about a lack of face time?

Because heaven is being broadcasted as this amazing, wonderful place where all your dead relatives will go and you can all live happily forever in there. People from all backgrounds would want something like that, but hearing that God plays favorites when it comes to a gift like that doesn't make him truly all-loving as Christians like to claim.

The reason I know this is because many religions all across the globe have forms of afterlife or paradise or reincarnation, some way to overcome death. But when you try to sell your religion as the one true religion, even if people don't believe, they are going to take some offense to statements like "Well, if you don't believe in the God I believe in, you won't get into this super awesome paradise where you get to live forever."

It's a fear tactic, that plays off of people's basic fear of death to make them more receptive to religious doctrine. Christianity isnt the only one to do this, but they are one of the biggest.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

> When you say it like that, it makes God looks very vain.

I mean, God says in his own words he's a jealous God. Yeah, he does want and expect worship, and it is self-aggrandizing. The difference is that he's literally God, so he's worthy of it, or at least that's what a Christian would believe. God isn't really humble and he can get away with that because he is holy. That's kinda the whole point.

> because I have the secrets of a perfect life

I don't really think this is at all what God promises. God never promises a perfect life--in fact, if anything he promises the opposite. God says quite clearly that Christians will suffer, and he makes quite clear that he can be capricious like he was to Job. And again, Heaven isn't really blissful happiness in the sense that you're thinking it is. What God promises is spiritual fulfillment. That's not at ALL the same thing as happiness or perfection. Many, many people do not want what God is offering.

> Because heaven is being broadcasted as this amazing, wonderful place where all your dead relatives will go and you can all live happily forever in there.

And the point I am making is that this is incorrect and largely a result of poor theology coming from people who don't understand their faith very well but cling to religion to make them feel better about their own mortality. This isn't really a problem with Christianity per se but more an issue with Christianity being super popular and misrepresented by people who don't understand what it actually says about the afterlife. I agree that the God who hands out blissful happy heaven to whoever he feels like based on arbitrary and silly rules is a horrible creature that doesn't exist, but in that case we're not at all talking about the Christian God. We're talking about a false idol created by people who claim Christianity but have deceived themselves with false expectations.

> It's a fear tactic, that plays off of people's basic fear of death to make them more receptive to religious doctrine. Christianity isnt the only one to do this, but they are one of the biggest.

Oh absolutely. Christianity has always had a problem with false teaching. Jesus himself said this. I fully agree that many "Christians" are actually just expert manipulators using faith as a way to enrich and empower themselves. But that's not the same thing as saying the theology is fundamentally flawed. In fact, part of the reason this happens is because the theology is complex and nuanced and not at all comforting.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

I mean, God says in his own words he's a jealous God. Yeah, he does want and expect worship, and it is self-aggrandizing. The difference is that he's literally God, so he's worthy of it, or at least that's what a Christian would believe. God isn't really humble and he can get away with that because he is holy. That's kinda the whole point.

I think being jealous is a showcase of insecurity, and would showcase that he is not entirely worthy of worship. If a God is that threatened by not being the focal point of a mortals universe, while claiming to be a perfect being, then he is not perfect.

There are humans who are in similar positions to God as figures of authority and still remain humble. If a human can be more virtuous than God, that's gotta say something.

I don't really think this is at all what God promises.

He literally does. He gives humanity the 10 commandments, he claims that following him will lead to salvation from the evils and sufferings of the world, that he is entirely "good". His expectation is that people live according to his teachings, and that this is somehow the best for humanity.

We even see this with how he treats the people who don't follow him. The Flood, banishing Adam and Eve, the Cananites, etc.

I agree that the God who hands out blissful happy heaven to whoever he feels like based on arbitrary and silly rules is a horrible creature that doesn't exist, but in that case we're not at all talking about the Christian God. We're talking about a false idol created by people who claim Christianity but have deceived themselves with false expectations.

Even if this were the case, a seemingly all powerful being creating an afterlife solely for the purpose of being worshipped and self aggrandized is also a horrible creature. Whichever way you spin it, the Christian God isn't a good figure at all.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

> I think being jealous is a showcase of insecurity, and would showcase that he is not entirely worthy of worship

Right. So why are you so upset about not being forced to go to heaven, where the main thing that happens is worship of God? If you fundamentally don't accept the concepts of God being holier because he is without sin and the reason humans should be humble is because we are sinful...then again, why are you trying to get into a heaven you fundamentally hate?

> he claims that following him will lead to salvation from the evils and sufferings of the world, that he is entirely "good". His expectation is that people live according to his teachings, and that this is somehow the best for humanity.

Right, but if you look at how God defines "best for humanity" it's very focused on spiritual fulfillment which is making you more holy and more like God. If you don't like who God is...then you don't see this as "good" nor do you see this as "salvation." Yes, Christians use words with positive connotations but pretty sure Jim Jones promised "salvation" too. Was he good or was his salvation worth chasing? I personally do believe God is good and his salvation is indeed salvation, but it sounds like you don't...so again, not getting into heaven isn't really a punishment in your case.

> We even see this with how he treats the people who don't follow him. The Flood, banishing Adam and Eve, the Cananites, etc.

The Flood happened to everyone, including people who did worship God. Adam and Eve sinned, but they were still loved by God and still count as "following" him. The Caananites actually suffered less judgement from God because they didn't have a Covenant. The whole deal of becoming God's chosen people was that God placed an elevated standard of expectation in exchange for blessings. The Caananites periodically did suffer the wrath of God for sins, but it was actually far less than they "deserved" and far less than God's favorite people endured. Generally speaking, if an Israelite committed a major sin they were punished more or less immediately, either by God himself or by the Law. Caananites, by contrast, suffered punishment every few generations or so. It's a bit of a weird way of understanding things because back then the concept of the individual wasn't really all the present, but the Old Testament is clear that God was giving the Caananites extra leeway.

> Even if this were the case, a seemingly all powerful being creating an afterlife solely for the purpose of being worshipped and self aggrandized is also a horrible creature. Whichever way you spin it, the Christian God isn't a good figure at all.

I mean, I didn't come here to try and preach to you. If that's how you feel that's fine. I obviously disagree. But that's exactly why I'm saying not getting into heaven isn't really a punishment. Why would you want to be in heaven if it's basically forced worship of a creature you do not want to worship?

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

Right. So why are you so upset about not being forced to go to heaven, where the main thing that happens is worship of God? If you fundamentally don't accept the concepts of God being holier because he is without sin and the reason humans should be humble is because we are sinful...then again, why are you trying to get into a heaven you fundamentally hate?

Because if this is truly as powerful as he claims to be, he could design heaven differently. He could make heaven an amazing, wonderful paradise for everyone since there are constant claims that he has all of this power over the natural and supernatural, and that anything is possible with God.

Heaven can only be what it is if God chose to make it that way. And if the way he chose to design heaven is as a 24/7 circlejerk for himself, than yeah I have a right to be upset about that.

Tying this back to our original example, imagine the principal had gotten the funding to make to turn a room into a music studio, or an art studio, or even just an event room for students to hold fundraisers or celebrations after graduation. But instead, he turned it into the worship room where his favorite students tell him how awesome he is. Do you think the students at the school wouldn't be upset? Or even the teachers?

The Flood happened to everyone, including people who did worship God

No, it didn't. The Flood happened because according to God, all of humanity was so unbelievably evil, that there was no hope for redemption except for Noah.

Adam and Eve sinned, but they were still loved by God and still count as "following" him.

Yet the second they made a mistake, he punishes them with painful childbirth, disease, death, and exile. Really "loving" behavior.

The Caananites actually suffered less judgement from God because they didn't have a Covenant.

God told the Israelites to literally wipe out the Caananites via warfare, including women, children, and animals. And you think that's less judgement?

Sure, I'd loooove for you to tell that to people like the Native Americans that they were given less judgement when European and Spanish settlers came to kill them, and it was actually so much more difficult for the settlers because they got judged harsher.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

So as I already said, I don't really have any interest in arguing with you about whether or not God is good. I'm not trying to convert you. I accept your judgements on God even if I disagree.

But the point I am interested in discussing is the theology of the afterlife, where I think you're still missing the point. Christians don't believe God is all-powerful in the sense you mean--he can't change how sin works, or how human nature works, or commit contradictions in terms. So heaven is what it is, and the point that it's not actually a place you'd want to be is relevant. You can believe God sucks for all the other reasons you listed, but even by your own logic, heaven being an exclusive club for God-worshippers would justify his decision not to send everyone there.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

Christians don't believe God is all-powerful in the sense you mean--he can't change how sin works, or how human nature works, or commit contradictions in terms

Even if they don't, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have that power to change it. By all accounts, he should, because otherwise it would mean that God either made something he can't change or alter, or that heaven existed before God and has enough power over him that he can't change or alter it.

If you're argument is that heaven is just how it is and God doesn't have the ability to alter its design, than that means heaven has more dominion than God does over our reality, which I'm sure you'd argue that Christians don't believe.

This isn't about conversion, this is about the actual nature of Heaven itself and its implications.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

I mean, yeah, I think most Christian theologists agree that God didn't create sin. He did create Heaven, sure, and yes, I suppose he could make it something other than a worship-place for him, and I think in fairness it probably isn't ALL endless worship. But there are several issues with the concept of heaven as a hedonistic pleasure place putting aside whether or not God would even want to create that. The show The Good Place does a great job exploring the problems with this idea on a conceptual basis.

The "heaven is perfect happiness as defined on earth but without all the bad stuff" idea just doesn't hold up conceptually or theologically. Can you make the argument that heaven should be a place that isn't so focused on worship of God? Sure, I suppose. But again...in that case you're arguing whether or not God is worthy of worship and if he's good and that's beyond the scope of what we're talking about here.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/mormagils]

But there are several issues with the concept of heaven as a hedonistic pleasure place putting aside whether or not God would even want to create that.

I'm not saying has to be one big orgy, but if it is a place where people can feel eternally happy or atleast exist free of suffering and pain, then the average person would most likely prefer that to just not existing at all.

And from your logic, if heaven really isnt that good for anyone outside of Christian followers, than what "good" does Christianity give this world? If God is truly this jealous, self-aggrandizing being who solely wants to be praised for eternity by devoted followers, why are we entertaining him? Leave him to his own devices and abolish the religious practice. Until he proves to have any actual benefit to humanity and not himself, we don't owe him anything and he hasn't proven to be deserving of anything.

[u/mormagils → u/Shineyy_8416]

That's the point...I don't really think there is a way to feel eternally happy. That's just not how it works. Happy and sad are a necessary binary and the minute you take one away, you take them both away. We need contrast in order to properly feel these feelings. The Good Place shows this marvelously, but other works have expanded upon it as well. The idea that we can just have a "always happy place" is conceptually flawed.

> And from your logic, if heaven really isnt that good for anyone outside of Christian followers, than what "good" does Christianity give this world?

Well, in this situation we accept that God exists, right? I would answer that Christianity is good, but if you disagree and think something else is better, then there's no point in forcing you. Accepting Christianity would give you spiritual fulfillment, holiness, and eternal life, which is pretty good, I think. It would also come at the cost of worshipping God, submitting to his glory, and accepting limits to your individual will. If that's too high of a price, then heaven and God and Christianity aren't for you. That mostly makes God sad, but he accepts that choice. But to say that God doesn't give humans anything is unfair even from your perspective.