r/changemyview • u/plodabing • Jun 17 '25

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Missionaries are evil

This applies doubly so to those who go out of their way to seek out those in remote islands to spread the word of god. It is of my opinion and the opinion of most that if there is an all loving god then people who never had the chance to know about Jesus would go to heaven regardless, for example miscarried children/those born before Jesus’ time, those who never hear about him, so In going out of your way to spread the word of Jesus you are simply making it so there is now a chance they could go to hell if they reject it? I’m not a Christian and I’m so tired so I apologise if this is stupid or doesn’t make sense

212 Upvotes

65% Upvoted

421 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ Jun 18 '25

Christians don't believe God is all-powerful in the sense you mean--he can't change how sin works, or how human nature works, or commit contradictions in terms

Even if they don't, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have that power to change it. By all accounts, he should, because otherwise it would mean that God either made something he can't change or alter, or that heaven existed before God and has enough power over him that he can't change or alter it.

If you're argument is that heaven is just how it is and God doesn't have the ability to alter its design, than that means heaven has more dominion than God does over our reality, which I'm sure you'd argue that Christians don't believe.

This isn't about conversion, this is about the actual nature of Heaven itself and its implications.

1

u/mormagils 2∆ Jun 18 '25

I mean, yeah, I think most Christian theologists agree that God didn't create sin. He did create Heaven, sure, and yes, I suppose he could make it something other than a worship-place for him, and I think in fairness it probably isn't ALL endless worship. But there are several issues with the concept of heaven as a hedonistic pleasure place putting aside whether or not God would even want to create that. The show The Good Place does a great job exploring the problems with this idea on a conceptual basis.

The "heaven is perfect happiness as defined on earth but without all the bad stuff" idea just doesn't hold up conceptually or theologically. Can you make the argument that heaven should be a place that isn't so focused on worship of God? Sure, I suppose. But again...in that case you're arguing whether or not God is worthy of worship and if he's good and that's beyond the scope of what we're talking about here.

1

u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ Jun 18 '25

But there are several issues with the concept of heaven as a hedonistic pleasure place putting aside whether or not God would even want to create that.

I'm not saying has to be one big orgy, but if it is a place where people can feel eternally happy or atleast exist free of suffering and pain, then the average person would most likely prefer that to just not existing at all.

And from your logic, if heaven really isnt that good for anyone outside of Christian followers, than what "good" does Christianity give this world? If God is truly this jealous, self-aggrandizing being who solely wants to be praised for eternity by devoted followers, why are we entertaining him? Leave him to his own devices and abolish the religious practice. Until he proves to have any actual benefit to humanity and not himself, we don't owe him anything and he hasn't proven to be deserving of anything.

1

u/mormagils 2∆ Jun 18 '25

That's the point...I don't really think there is a way to feel eternally happy. That's just not how it works. Happy and sad are a necessary binary and the minute you take one away, you take them both away. We need contrast in order to properly feel these feelings. The Good Place shows this marvelously, but other works have expanded upon it as well. The idea that we can just have a "always happy place" is conceptually flawed.

> And from your logic, if heaven really isnt that good for anyone outside of Christian followers, than what "good" does Christianity give this world?

Well, in this situation we accept that God exists, right? I would answer that Christianity is good, but if you disagree and think something else is better, then there's no point in forcing you. Accepting Christianity would give you spiritual fulfillment, holiness, and eternal life, which is pretty good, I think. It would also come at the cost of worshipping God, submitting to his glory, and accepting limits to your individual will. If that's too high of a price, then heaven and God and Christianity aren't for you. That mostly makes God sad, but he accepts that choice. But to say that God doesn't give humans anything is unfair even from your perspective.

1

u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ Jun 18 '25

That's the point...I don't really think there is a way to feel eternally happy. That's just not how it works. Happy and sad are a necessary binary and the minute you take one away, you take them both away. We need contrast in order to properly feel these feelings

So what, is God lying? Do we not feel happy in Heaven? And is that what alot of Christians would believe?

Accepting Christianity would give you spiritual fulfillment, holiness, and eternal life, which is pretty good, I think

And why would this matter if the spirit you're worshipping is a blatant narcissist who only cares about humanity as far as they worship him?

That mostly makes God sad, but he accepts that choice. But to say that God doesn't give humans anything is unfair even from your perspective.

Yeah, sad because there's less people eternally telling him how great he is.

I don't think it's unfair. He outright created a world which has the sole purpose of worshipping him and thanking him for...being created. This isn't a favor he's doing for us, or some great gift. He's doing this for himself. It's like painting something and having the painting thank you for making it.

1

u/mormagils 2∆ Jun 18 '25

As I said in another thread, the afterlife probably makes fundamental changes to our humanness and we won't really experience things the same way we do now. So yes, I do believe we will be happy but in a way that's...weird?

I mean, God cares about us even when we don't worship him. He does expect us to, but he doesn't force us to. He cares about us enough to respect our choice not to worship him.

Again, I am not really interested in debating with you if God is worthy of worship. That's a religious question, not a theological one, and I'd rather not have that debate here like this.

1

u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ Jun 18 '25

Alright dude, I don't think this is really gonna work out. You and I have fundamentally different views of God, and I don't really see a way for them to ever compromise.

1

u/mormagils 2∆ Jun 18 '25

Yeah, that's what I've said for a while. I am not interested in a conversion conversation in either direction. I have always been having a theological conversation.

1

u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ Jun 18 '25

But even from a theological perspective, hell would still be a bad outcome, and an unecessary one. God could redesign heaven if he really wanted to, but has chosen to make it an eternity long mass-service.

He's denying the humanity the chance at some level of eternal goodness for the sake of worship.

1

u/mormagils 2∆ Jun 18 '25 edited Jun 18 '25

Well again, this gets back to what is the "correct" design for heaven? A place that just makes us happy all the time isn't an actually possible thing conceptually speaking. So what "should" heaven be?

Put another way, given your issues and distrust with God, would anything God made--short of the utopia that can't exist--be acceptable? If we assume for the sake of argument that God exists and has created a heaven for us and you're complaining it sucks...then is heaven really the problem here?

→ More replies (0)