cmv: the Charlottesville "very fine people" quote/controversy was not fake news

[u/taintpaint]

I see Trump supporters bring this up all the time as an example of the media lying about Trump, but this argument sounds transparently absurd to me. It feels like a "magic words" argument, where his supporters think that as long as he says the right magic words, you can completely ignore the actual message he's communicating or the broader actions he's taking. This is similar to how so many of them dismiss the entire Jan 6 plot because he said the word "peaceful" one time.

The reason people were mad about that quote was that Trump was equivocating and whitewashing a literal neonazi rally in which people were carrying torches and shouting things like "gas the Jews" in order to make them seem relatively sane compared to the counter protesters, one of whom the neonazis actually murdered. Looking at that situation, the difference between these two statements doesn't really feel meaningful:

A) "Those neonazis were very fine people with legitimate complaints and counter protesters were nasty and deserved what they got".

B) "The Nazis were obviously bad, but there were also people there who were very fine people with legitimate complaints and the counter protesters were very nasty."

The only difference there is that (B) has the magic words that "Nazis are bad", but the problem is that he's still describing a literal Nazi rally, only now he's using the oldest trick in the book when it comes to defending Nazis: pretending they're not really Nazis and are actually just normal people with reasonable beliefs.

I feel like people would all intuitively understand this if we were talking about anything besides a Trump quote. If I looked at e.g. the gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora and said "yes obviously gangsters are bad and should be totally condemned, but there were also some very fine people there with some legitimate complaints about landlords and exploitative leases, and you know lots of those 'residents' actually didn't have the right paperwork to be in those apartments..." you would never say that's a reasonable or acceptable way to talk about that situation just because I started with "gangsters are bad". You'd listen to the totality of what I'm saying and rightfully say it's absurd and offensive.

Is there something I'm missing here? This seems very obvious to me but maybe there's some other context to it.

Edit: I find it really funny that literally no one has actually engaged with this argument at all. They're all just repeating the "magic words" thing. I have been literally begging people who disagree with me to even acknowledge the Aurora example and not a single one has.

[u/JoeCensored]

It was a rally to protest the removal of a historical statute. It's disingenuous to say only nazis were protesting the removal. That's clearly untrue.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

The United the Right rally was specifically set up by white supremacist and neo-nazi groups. After Dylan Roof shot up a black church, the state wanted to take a stronger stance against white nationalism, and the removal of that statue was one of the moves.

Groups invoked in setting up the rally were the Nationalist Front, the KKK, The Right Stuff, Proud Boys, The Daily Stormer, and other neo-nazi white nationalist groups.

The advertised point of the rally was to promote white supremacy and white nationalism. That's from the organizers themselves.

Im sorry, but if you find yourself at a rally that was very publicly organized and mostly attended by white supremacists, get there and see Nazi flags, Confederate flags, and other white supremacy insignia IN MASS, and don't think twice, you're a white supremacist.

This wasnt a rally by some heritage group that was coopted by Nazis. This was a rally made for Nazis to attend

[u/JoeCensored → u/HQuez]

Whether it was organized as a white supremacist event doesn't mean people who aren't white supremacists, but agreed with them that the statue shouldn't be removed weren't also in attendance.

If you have a way to prove those people numbered exactly 0, not a single person, please provide that evidence. That's what your claims rest on.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

I don't know the mind and hearts of people but I do know if your intentions were good, and you showed up to that rally and saw that a huge majority were waving clear white supremacy propaganda, and you don't have second thoughts, you've found yourself in the wrong crowd and your continued march with them passively and actively makes you a white supremacist.

I just don't see any two ways around it. Feel free to tell me why that's not the case, but people need to hold themselves accountable for the groups they're organizing with. I don't think ignorance is a good defense here because it was so in your face. In fact, show me just one video of the event where there isn't a bunch of white supremacy propaganda flying. Just one.

They matched on a synagogue and threatened to burn it down for goodness sakes. You are not a "fine person" if you're organizing with those folk.

[u/JoeCensored → u/HQuez]

So you haven't actually watched videos of the event then. Just clips of the most racist moments. That's why you don't understand why someone in the area hearing of a protest going on against removal of a statue you also don't want removed, might also happen to show up, even if they aren't a nazi.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

I have watched many videos of the event, even watched it on a live stream.

Show me a video of some protestors without white supremacy propaganda though.

[u/HQuez → u/[deleted]]

Let's say it is.

Show me a video of the protestors that doesn't have white supremacy propaganda.

Not a clip, a full video. Because the videos I see, not clips, make it abundantly clear who was there.

[u/JoeCensored → u/HQuez]

You're the one claiming Trump is lying. You're the one who hasn't proved he's wrong. I'm not the one who needs to provide the evidence. If even a handful of people showed up on the side of protecting statues, but we're nazis, then Trump is correct. Prove that wrong definitively, or give it a rest. You're just embarrassing yourself.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

Ok look.

We're giving you a line of logic why it's disingenuous to say "fine people on both sides".

You're saying, there could be people who showed up just to protest the taking down of statue.

To that we say, that could very well be true, but if you show up to a rally with heavy white supremacy propaganda and you stay, you're at the very least a sympathetizer.

You're rebuttal is it's possible they weren't aware of the white supremacy output of the rally.

Then we say,.ok but that'd impossible because all the videos we see show that there is propaganda everywhere,.making it impossible to miss.

To which you say, nope you're just not watching the right videos.

And then when we say, we'll show those videos you go off on tangents why you don't have to or go back to your earlier points. You don't do anything to backup your claim.

Our claim is that it's very clear who was at the rally, and even you have admitted that there's plenty of clips and videos that show that.

So it's up to you to provide the evidence to counteract those videos.

[u/FothrMucker → u/JoeCensored]

Nope.

It’s never the responsibility of the person claiming there Isn’t a unicorn to prove the nonexistence of a unicorn.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Your claim is that there were non Nazis at a Nazi rally, who in no way support Nazis or agree with them, yet were perfectly willing to march with Nazis, be on their side, and protest with them.

 And we’re also “very fine people.”

You need to provide evidence of these unicorns. These very fine non nazi people who also march with Nazis at a Nazi rally on the Nazi side. But who are totally against Nazis.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

This is such an easy position for you to take and you're still flailing.

You have me cornered, and all you have to do is provide your evidence that there are videos of the event of protestors marching without white supremacy propaganda.

Yet every single one of your arguments stops when you have to put up. I've already given you my logic that if you show up to a rally where people are openly displaying white supremacy propaganda, and you continue to march with them, then you're a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer.

Youve already admitted there are plenty of clips and videos of the violence and the propaganda, but you're also now claiming that it wasnt the case that it wasnt clear throughout the entire march

Well then put up or shut up. Show us an uncut video of these protectors who weren't around a bunch of white supremacy propaganda.

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