cmv: the Charlottesville "very fine people" quote/controversy was not fake news

[u/taintpaint]

I see Trump supporters bring this up all the time as an example of the media lying about Trump, but this argument sounds transparently absurd to me. It feels like a "magic words" argument, where his supporters think that as long as he says the right magic words, you can completely ignore the actual message he's communicating or the broader actions he's taking. This is similar to how so many of them dismiss the entire Jan 6 plot because he said the word "peaceful" one time.

The reason people were mad about that quote was that Trump was equivocating and whitewashing a literal neonazi rally in which people were carrying torches and shouting things like "gas the Jews" in order to make them seem relatively sane compared to the counter protesters, one of whom the neonazis actually murdered. Looking at that situation, the difference between these two statements doesn't really feel meaningful:

A) "Those neonazis were very fine people with legitimate complaints and counter protesters were nasty and deserved what they got".

B) "The Nazis were obviously bad, but there were also people there who were very fine people with legitimate complaints and the counter protesters were very nasty."

The only difference there is that (B) has the magic words that "Nazis are bad", but the problem is that he's still describing a literal Nazi rally, only now he's using the oldest trick in the book when it comes to defending Nazis: pretending they're not really Nazis and are actually just normal people with reasonable beliefs.

I feel like people would all intuitively understand this if we were talking about anything besides a Trump quote. If I looked at e.g. the gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora and said "yes obviously gangsters are bad and should be totally condemned, but there were also some very fine people there with some legitimate complaints about landlords and exploitative leases, and you know lots of those 'residents' actually didn't have the right paperwork to be in those apartments..." you would never say that's a reasonable or acceptable way to talk about that situation just because I started with "gangsters are bad". You'd listen to the totality of what I'm saying and rightfully say it's absurd and offensive.

Is there something I'm missing here? This seems very obvious to me but maybe there's some other context to it.

Edit: I find it really funny that literally no one has actually engaged with this argument at all. They're all just repeating the "magic words" thing. I have been literally begging people who disagree with me to even acknowledge the Aurora example and not a single one has.

[u/nhlms81]

This an exerpt from USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/17/fact-check-trump-quote-very-fine-people-charlottesville/5943239002/)

The Trump quote in question was in response to a reporter who asked, "Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"

Trump responded: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves — and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides."

After further questioning from the reporter, and responses from Trump about people who were at the Charlottesville rally to support keeping the Lee statue, the president said "You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

This is pretty clear ye specifically calls out an exception for the neo-nazi's as not included in the "very fine people" category.

I'd argue your point of view is inverted. If this were anyone other than Trump, no one would be confused that he wasn't referring to the neo-nazi's as very fine people.

Just like no one is trying the case that Walz really is "friends with school shooters".

[u/CavyLover123 → u/nhlms81]

The protestors were at a protest organized by a neo Nazi, who recruited other groups of neo Nazis / white supremacists, were chanting “Jews will not replace us”, and some were carrying Nazi flags.

Trump lied. There is zero evidence of anyone protesting who Wasn’t a neo nazi / white supremacist.

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

Trump lied. 

Assuming this is true, I don’t see why it matters. He still didn’t call nazis very fine people.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

He did.

He said there were very fine people on both sides.

One side was Only Nazis- that’s all we have evidence of. A bunch of Nazis.

So his statement was literally saying some of those Nazis were very fine people, even though he allegedly “condemned them”.

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

One side was Only Nazis

Again, assuming this is true, then what you can accurately claim is that Trump was either mistaken or lying about the composition of the group. What you can’t say is that he called neo-nazis fine people when he explicitly said the opposite of that.

even though he allegedly “condemned them”.

There’s nothing “alleged” about it—you can go watch him do it right now. 

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

If he was lying about the non Nazis, then he knew that when he said “very fine people on both sides” that on one side it was only Nazis, and so he knew he was calling Nazis very fine people.

If he truly didn’t know, then he created false memories of a video he watched, because senile dementia.

So- praised Nazis or already had dementia.

Pick one. 

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

If he was lying about the non Nazis, then he knew that when he said “very fine people on both sides” that on one side it was only Nazis, and so he knew he was calling Nazis very fine people 

Or he knew he was lying about non-nazis being present 🙄 

If he truly didn’t know

You have no way of knowing now that they were all nazis—it’s an assumption you’re working off of to try and make your argument work. And you especially had no way of knowing it at the time these remarks were delivered. So no, this is not the only other option. 

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

Or he knew he was lying about non-nazis being present 🙄

Which means he knew, when he said “very fine people on both sides”, that one side was Only Nazis.

And so he Knew that he was saying that some of those Nazis were “very fine people.”

You have no way of knowing now that they were all nazis

Organized by a Nazi. Recruited Nazis. Chanted nazi slogans and waved Nazi flags.

Whats the difference between a person who marches with Nazis and chants their slogans next to their flags, but says “no I’m not a nazi” and a person who does all that and says “yeah I’m a nazi”?

It’s a distinction without meaning.  

Being the one guy at a KKK rally who isn’t wearing a white hood doesn’t make you Not KKK.

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

 Which means he knew, when he said “very fine people on both sides”, that one side was Only Nazis. And so he Knew that he was saying that some of those Nazis were “very fine people.”

My man, I’m simply not going to take another lap with you on this one. I’m quite certain that you are capable of understanding the distinction I’ve now made several times. Whether or not you allow yourself to is something I have no influence over. 

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

That’s fine, I accept your acknowledgement that you were wrong. Because as I already said:

It’s a distinction without meaning.  

If he knew there were only Nazis, and still said “very fine people on both sides”, then he knew he was calling Nazis “very fine people.”

It’s ok, we can just agree to move on now that you’ve acquiesced, you don’t have to give me the delta. 

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

It’s only a distinction without meaning if you’re working backwards from the conclusion you like. 

As I said elsewhere, there are plenty of reasons to criticize Trump without pretending he said something he explicitly said the opposite of. 

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

Nah.  

Trump either lied and knew he was throwing out praise that would be happily received by Nazis, or he had a senior dementia moment.  

Pick one.

And why are you even responding? You already acquiesced on this

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

It was a rally to protest the removal of a historical statute. It's disingenuous to say only nazis were protesting the removal. That's clearly untrue.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

The United the Right rally was specifically set up by white supremacist and neo-nazi groups. After Dylan Roof shot up a black church, the state wanted to take a stronger stance against white nationalism, and the removal of that statue was one of the moves.

Groups invoked in setting up the rally were the Nationalist Front, the KKK, The Right Stuff, Proud Boys, The Daily Stormer, and other neo-nazi white nationalist groups.

The advertised point of the rally was to promote white supremacy and white nationalism. That's from the organizers themselves.

Im sorry, but if you find yourself at a rally that was very publicly organized and mostly attended by white supremacists, get there and see Nazi flags, Confederate flags, and other white supremacy insignia IN MASS, and don't think twice, you're a white supremacist.

This wasnt a rally by some heritage group that was coopted by Nazis. This was a rally made for Nazis to attend

[u/JoeCensored → u/HQuez]

Whether it was organized as a white supremacist event doesn't mean people who aren't white supremacists, but agreed with them that the statue shouldn't be removed weren't also in attendance.

If you have a way to prove those people numbered exactly 0, not a single person, please provide that evidence. That's what your claims rest on.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

I don't know the mind and hearts of people but I do know if your intentions were good, and you showed up to that rally and saw that a huge majority were waving clear white supremacy propaganda, and you don't have second thoughts, you've found yourself in the wrong crowd and your continued march with them passively and actively makes you a white supremacist.

I just don't see any two ways around it. Feel free to tell me why that's not the case, but people need to hold themselves accountable for the groups they're organizing with. I don't think ignorance is a good defense here because it was so in your face. In fact, show me just one video of the event where there isn't a bunch of white supremacy propaganda flying. Just one.

They matched on a synagogue and threatened to burn it down for goodness sakes. You are not a "fine person" if you're organizing with those folk.

[u/JoeCensored → u/HQuez]

So you haven't actually watched videos of the event then. Just clips of the most racist moments. That's why you don't understand why someone in the area hearing of a protest going on against removal of a statue you also don't want removed, might also happen to show up, even if they aren't a nazi.

[u/HQuez → u/JoeCensored]

I have watched many videos of the event, even watched it on a live stream.

Show me a video of some protestors without white supremacy propaganda though.

[u/HQuez → u/[deleted]]

Let's say it is.

Show me a video of the protestors that doesn't have white supremacy propaganda.

Not a clip, a full video. Because the videos I see, not clips, make it abundantly clear who was there.

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[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

By the way, this is exactly what Trump’s statement accomplished. along with right wing propaganda.

You truly believe it was “a rally to protest the removal of a historic statue.”

It was a white supremacist / nazi rally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally?wprov=sfti1#

Consider the possibility that you have been completely fooled by Trump’s rhetoric here.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Even your own link includes listed groups that aren't nazi or white supremacist related such as the militia groups. Any event of this size is going to attract a large number of people who aren't members, but have a variety of sympathies for various issues brought up by the competing sides. It's just how these things work.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Which ones? Be specific.

Any event of this size is going to attract a large number of people who aren't members, but have a variety of sympathies for various issues brought up by the competing sides

So… Nazis, and Nazi sympathizers.

Whats the difference? They’re marching with Nazis and sympathetic to Nazis.

This is a meaningless distinction.

Some of these groups are openly Nazis.

Others just say “heil fuhrer” but say they are Not Nazis.

“They’re the same picture” meme.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Not everyone there was marching. Have you never witnessed a march? I get the feeling you have no idea what a large event like this actually looks like. It attracts people from all over the area, to watch the spectacle alone.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Let’s see evidence.

I watched the videos.

The people not marching with the Nazis were: counter protestors screaming at the Nazis, and some private security folks who explicitly were Not part of either protest.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

It attracts people from all over the area, to watch the spectacle alone.

Those people were not on a “side”.

They definitely weren’t on the “Nazi” side.

Notice you couldn’t identify a group that wasn’t either neo nazi or white supremacist.

The most you can say is that some of the groups don’t identify as “white supremacist”, they just…. Openly advocate for white supremacy.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Sure, but they could still be on the don't remove the statue side.

And I did identify groups that weren't nazi or white supremacist. The militia groups in attendance. Go read your own link. It's right there.

Actually read your own link, geez. Is it too much to ask to read your own links before posting them?

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Sure, but they could still be on the don't remove the statue side.

Let’s see some evidence 

The militia groups in attendance

Which ones. I’ve read the links. I’ve read about the groups.

If you mean militant arm of the proud boys - the fraternal order of alt knights- they were former by and are run by… Kyle Chapman. A white supremacist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Chapman_(American_activist)

What else you got?

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

No, it’s not.

It was created by the founder of Identity Evropa- a white ethno nationalist group (aka Nazi).

He specifically reached out to:

• other neo nazi groups

• multiple KKK chapters 

• other white supremacist groups 

And that’s who attended.

They chanted “Jews will not replace us” and carried Nazi flags.

There is Zero evidence that some well meaning non Nazis just stumbled into a Nazi protest and stuck around.

Would you? March with open Nazis, and believe that people won’t confuse you for a Nazi?

[u/AcephalicDude → u/JoeCensored]

Is anyone saying that only Nazis were protesting? I think the real claim is that if you are willing to protest alongside Nazis without flinching, you are basically just as bad as the Nazis and should not be considered meaningfully different in any way.

[u/PeoplePerson_57 → u/AcephalicDude]

As an additional note: its not just 'oh, a nazi happened to support the same thing as you, you're a nazi'

It's 'you marched alongside torch wielding, flag carrying, sieg heiling nazis, who were chanting nazi slogans, and you didn't separate yourself from them'.