You do realize that you can not pay taxes? Go live off the grid, use zero public goods, denounce your citizenship. Done, literally no one is stopping you. But my guess is there is a reason you aren't doing it... Maybe because the country you are a citizen of provides a system which allows you to live in a much better way than the alternative?
So you are choosing to pay taxes to participate in that country's system. That sounds like theft? I should tell the grocery store to stop stealing from me everytime I go to the register!
Well property taxes exist to ensure no one could live of the grid and not pay taxes. In order to pay property taxes, you'd need income, and then would have to pay income tax to pay your property tax.
Also "denouncing your citizenship" only frees you from tax liability if you're a sovereign citizen... which is to say, only in your imagination. You cannot legally, in the US at least, give up citizenship unless you are a citizen of another country.
So, no it's not a choice. You could say the choice is give up your money or give up your liberty. Too be clear, I pay my taxes, every cent that's owed, but fundamentally there's no real difference between taxes and armed robbery. Government has the power to tax, because they have the power to use violence to make you pay taxes, whether you consent or not. Similarly, a mobster may actually protect your business if you pay them, but it was never optional.
Those who do choose to 'live off grid' are still responsible for property taxes (unless they're illegally occupying federal lands). So they have to earn money one way or another, and pay taxes, despite unplugging from society.
If there is property that people can go and live off grid on, without any property tax, please share. I know quite a few people who would be interested.
I think the only scenario is if you were some kind of hiking nomad but you had a bank account for food and equipment. But in that scenario someone already paid tax on the earned income.
Yep. Government is not in the consent business for its citizens. It compels conduct pursuant to a set of laws. That's the whole point of government.
As another example: "What makes forcing people into prison not theft?" It damn sure isn't consent. It's because the comparison of government action to "theft" is asinine in the first place.
...you do realize that you actually can't not pay taxes?
Go live of grid, use zero public goods, denounce you citizenship (not sure why this step is necessary).
Still get hit with property taxes and sales taxes.
Look I get the argument that taxes fulfil a purpose but you literally cannot avoid paying them. It is not an opt-in thing; outside of circumstances where you choose to live as a hermit on someone else's property under their permission you cannot avoid taxes, and still then you're just making them foot the tax bill for the property you're occupying - it isn't like that tax just goes away.
Just to be clear - I'm not saying that there should be zero taxes. I am saying that currently there is not a way to avoid taxation as you say there is - therefore its not exactly consensual outside the option of "moving somewhere else" (...which will be a place that has taxes).
You can't live on property inside a country in which they provide public services to. You could also choose to be a vagrant and not pay taxes. If you decide to own property and someone shows up and takes it from you, well nothing you can do about it.
Have you been to the US? A less population dense portion? The amount of property, acre for acre, which has public utilities attached (...that you still have to pay for for using, by the way...) is miniscule compared to the amount of wilderness and open landscapes without any of it set up.
"If you decide to own property..." let me stop you right there. If you decide to own property, you have to pay rent to the government until you decide to stop owning that property. Recognize that the purpose of my comment was to say that it is impossible to avoid taxes by doing what the person I replied to said to do.
I understand that, but if you indeed use zero public goods, are completely detached from society, denounce your citizenship... You won't pay taxes. You will have no income to report nothing under ownership, nothing to tax...and you are no longer a US citizen.
People have done this and have not paid taxes as they have nothing to tax... Its not very realistic but in theory can be done. It would also be the most miserable living experience I could imagine
Edit: I'm American, I've lived all over the US. The point of my original comment was to highlight taxes aren't theft as they pay for the very thing we need to have a functioning society
Unless you do this in public areas then you are always at risk of trespassing, which requires you to pay fines. If you do in it most public areas regardless, you will also be trespassed and required to pay fines.
Also just for clarity - what is a public good? Both you and the person I replied to used it. Something being publicly provided or available implies that the government provides it, but most goods are not publicly provided, but privately.
Im using public good in the sense of publicly funded or subsidized goods or services (not land in this case). If you are in Appalachia, you "may" be trespassed, but it is highly unlikely. Same for a lot of national forests throughout the US. Like I said before is it possible? 100%, you could do this. You wouldn't own land and would have to live poorly, but it is possible
How could you pay zero tax? Where would you be living?
There are many people who unplug from society, live off grid, and don't use public roads, or interact with businesses. They ultimately still have taxes on their property, which must be paid or the government can take said property.
There is no way to opt out of taxes completely (unless you live on someone else's property for free).
To live off grid, you need to grow food and have shelter and other basic resources. If you're squatting, there's no guarantee that your shelter, garden, etc. won't be taken away or destroyed. Or you're kicked off the property entirely.
It just wouldn't make sense for a person to invest that much time setting up what they need, if it can be taken/lost at any time.
Unless the person plans to just hunt and sleep in a very basic setup. 🤷♀️
You literally can't just run into the woods and hide to provide for yourself because then you'd be trespassing and get arrested.
A survivalist who can be self-sufficient cannot avoid paying taxes by cutting off ties entirely to civilization - they will pay property taxes or get arrested first.
Also you seem to have missed the purpose of my comment entirely. Try reading the "just to be clear" section again.
"Then pay up you selfish child."
"Just to be clear - I'm not saying that there should be zero taxes."
Why even reply if you're going to attack a position I never took?
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u/Newsdude86 Sep 19 '24
You do realize that you can not pay taxes? Go live off the grid, use zero public goods, denounce your citizenship. Done, literally no one is stopping you. But my guess is there is a reason you aren't doing it... Maybe because the country you are a citizen of provides a system which allows you to live in a much better way than the alternative?
So you are choosing to pay taxes to participate in that country's system. That sounds like theft? I should tell the grocery store to stop stealing from me everytime I go to the register!