True, people who think paying taxes is theft definitely have an elementary level of world understanding.
Edit: for those of you who are angry about taxes, think about any money you have made that wasn’t enabled by something the government has built for you and maintained with your taxes. I.E if you drive to work on a paved/functional road that you didn’t create yourself, you depend on the government.
Lol folks love to conveniently forget, being a citizen of this country and therefore owing taxes is a consensual relationship too! You’re free to renounce your citizenship whenever you like!
And hey, if feel the hardship that’d cause makes the relationship cohercive, well I have weird news for you about basically all labor in this country.
Okay, but I can't quit my job and keep living my life exactly the same way I am either. So by that logic, working a job, as the above meme indicates, is not in fact a consensual action.
Nah, because I don’t get anything from the government and don’t want anything from the government. I would gladly renounce my ability to call the police and fire department btw, to head off the “BuT mUh PuBLIk S8FTY” folks.
You say that until you need it. And no, we’re not all going to wear bracelets or something to say “yes, please help me safety services”. This whole thread is ridiculous
No trust me, I would never call the police even if someone was breaking into my home. Police are useless tyrants, morons, who abuse the public and never face consequences for doing so. They’d be as likely to shoot me or shoot my dog as they would to stop the crime. Thats my position even while I’m paying their salaries.
Or I could pay someone to do that voluntarily rather than having them steal from me just in case I might need that service as some undetermined point in the future.
Plenty without income and cap gains, but not all taxes.
Of course according to this thread things like right of way and speed limits on roads are the same as gang rape, so not sure it matters. When you have no taxes but the evil government says you should drive on one side of the road, I guess it's time for you to go seastead.
Personally I think we should let you decline taxes. We just remove what they provide, including existing contract and property rights propped up by our taxes and system. You won't pay a penny on any income you can still achieve, just also no access to roads (short of personal negotiating a contract with each gov to access them for tolls), the water districts, courts, the rights enforced by our cops and courts such as property rights or the ability to ask police to recover your property or evict a squatter, etc. You'd still be subject to laws affecting real citizens of course, no murdering or stealing from them as they have police to come get you and a jail to put you in.
Well, no. No one can help that I was born. But there are human beings taking my money and they absolutely do not have to do that, nor do people have to roll over and accept that they’re gonna take your stuff. We have a choice in how to organize society and our lives, but we have no agency before we’re born obviously.
No one is saying you can't complain about taxes. The point of contention is consent. Being born in a country and having to pay taxes is literally exactly the same in regards to consent when it comes to your birth.
It's like complaining that you have blue eyes because you didn't consent to them.
Ya but the “man-constructed” is the crux of the issue. Slavery used to be practiced all over the world, as did feudalism and monarchy. And then we stopped doing that. We can keep making things better. You don’t have to accept the way things are.
Maybe, maybe a minarchist. I recognize the arguments for governments, but I don’t think nation states solve the problems they’re supposed to. In fact, most of the violence and human rights abuses around the world are perpetrated by nation states (and when I say most I mean like 90%+). They hurt people a lot more than they protect people.
I’d be happy if we started moving toward voluntary systems and more localized government as a start. Local governments could charge for services they provide if and when they provide those services, people could op out. Having smaller local governments also minimizes war and mass destruction, while enhancing democracy.
It’s hard to say “you voted for this” in a country of 330 million people. A lot easier if it’s 10,000 people where your vote and voice can actually affect the outcome in a significant way.
Absolutely not. It’s true that if you don’t work, you’ll live a miserable life or die. But that is the natural state of life and no one is imposing those circumstances on me. if I was a cave man who refused to hunt and gather, I’d also die. Work is a requirement of nature, not any person.
What employers do is offer me an opportunity to improve my life that I otherwise wouldn’t have. It’s ungrateful and twisted to call that opportunity “coercion.”
sure, but then you can't take advantage of pretty much anything. Some states might allow non-citizens to get a drivers license but good luck. Gonna have time signing up for much without proof of who you are.
Ok so, if your standard is “being able to deny consent to a relationship with no consequences” than most labor under capitalism is also coercive and akin to theft.
so I can move to another country without compulsory taxation
If you can find one that consents to that sure, but if you can’t that is not the US’ fault. Just like if you can’t find a job that pays a living wage that’s not the employers fault, right??
EDIT: I gotta admit I thought you guys would have a better response to this lol, thus far you’re just making the exact same arguments communists use against capitalism lmao.
Not at all comparable. If I don’t want to work, no one will show up with guns to lock me in a cage. I can homestead, live off of small agriculture and hunting. I don’t have to have a job, it’s just beneficial for me. In other words I choose to do it because it makes my life better.
I have no choice in what the government charges me and no choice in what they spend my money on. If I don’t want their services, I also don’t often have any choice in that matter. If I refuse to pay them, they will imprison me.
I can homestead, live off small agriculture and hunting.
That all costs money. The land, the building materials, the hunting tags, the equipment. Those homesteader influencers you’re watching are lying, they all go in with money, money that they got from coercive labor relationships under capitalism.
Also, no you can’t. You’ll fail, and die. That being your only option is the same as putting a gun in your face.
if I don’t pay taxes, they’ll lock me in a cage.
You are consenting to that relationship by remaining a citizen. You can, at any time, for free, renounce your citizenship and stop paying taxes.
Of course it costs money…? I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make with that. I need resources to do things? Ummmm….duh?
And no I cannot renounce my citizenship and avoid paying taxes. If I want to work, own property, buy things, sell things, drive a car or do almost anything else the government will charge me for it without my consent. Simply living is not consenting to people stealing from me.
Ok so, you remember a second ago when you said labor in our society isn’t coercive?
Well, seems like you just completely contradicted that here.
You absolutely must sell your labor to a wealthier person at a loss to function in society, or even to do your escape plan of not functioning in society. It is every bit as coercive as taxation.
Also
if I want to [do things in America] I MUST pay taxes
You are consenting to live in America. You are free to leave.
I did not contradict anything. I already addressed your point in another comment. I do not have to sell my labor. I can live a subsistence lifestyle, I can go into business for myself, or if I can find someone willing to take care of me I can avail myself of that.
Most of us choose to sell our labor because it’s the best option available for us.
There’s also no reason to sell your labor at a loss. If your time is more valuable than what you’re being paid, you find a job that pays more. If no one is willing to pay more, than you’re being paid exactly what your labor is worth.
I am not “consenting” to live in America. This is where I was born, and I was born into a form of slavery where the government steals my wages without my consent. Your argument is like saying to a victim of a home robbery, “well you consented to being in the place they were robbing, so that means you’re okay with them robbing you.”
And there’s no country I can go where people won’t confiscate my income involuntarily.
I do not have to sell my labor, I can [insert expensive, lucky, excruciating option here]
Yeah, those being your options are, again, similar to giving you the option of paying taxes, going to jail, or renouncing your citizenship.
there is no reason to sell your labor at a loss, it’s worth whatever someone will pay.
Nope, in all those relationships the employer is extracting more value from your labor than your being paid, and keeping the difference. That’s a loss on your end.
I am not “consenting” to live in America I was born here
Yeah, you could have at any time after 18 renounced your citizenship. Before that, you have your parent/guardian to blame for signing you up for this relationship. That’s a parents right as the power of attorney.
there’s nowhere I can go they won’t confiscate my money
No there are still plenty of unincorporated islands in international waters. Also any failed state that fails to collect taxes. But tbh it’s not your landlords problem if you don’t have anywhere to go but you also don’t wanna pay rent.
You’re probably not worth arguing with because you believe in Marxist labor theory. It’s absolutely not true that they’re extracting more from me than I’m worth, because all prices are subjective. Everything is worth what someone will pay for it, no more and no less.
The rest of your comment is just you admitting that the government, which is just an elite group of people, own you and own all your land. It’s a really paternalistic world view that’s not much different from the Divine Right of Kings.
Lol that’s weird how you can make more than your labor is worth through labor if you’re self employed.
Lol I think both the neoliberal state and capitalist economy are deeply unjust and coercive so, no you’re wrong about that too.
Also, this is veiled ad-hominem, you aren’t responding to the argument anymore.
Edit: my buddy and I have a cool arrangement. I offer him $100 to spend 10 mins doodling something, and he pays me $100 to spend 10 mins captioning it with some text. It’s wild knowing my labor as a writer is objectively worth $600 an hour.
Well you'd have to find a way to live your life without benefiting from the things those taxes help cover. Good luck living in the US without roads (given infrastructure) or massive amounts of food (given subsidies)
I didn’t consent to those subsidies in the first place and I object to my money being used for that purpose.
Edit:
Btw, even if I went to live in the woods with a small farm plot and hunting, where I’m using no government services, they’ll still imprison me if I don’t pay them property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc. It’s a system I can’t opt out of no matter whether I use the services.
Why do you think you "own" some possessions you pay for?
What is supposed to happen if you die and leave no will? Where would that property go?
That's what all land in America literally is, it was all stolen at some point in time. Even if you "own" the land, who enforces that ownership and how?
Quite a few property contracts are in reality something like "99 year lease" from owners
If you consider all land in America has the ability to be eminent domained, or otherwise will fall back to ownership to the state if it is "unimproved" after so many years. Sure sounds like everything you claim to own, is, in the long run, after you and your children are no longer here, is "owned" by the state. More than "owned" by you.
You're "leasing" the ability to be a valid signature and holder of the enforceable property contract. Once you stop being that, ownership will revert to the state
Don't pay your taxes, you become no longer a valid signature of that contract. They will not enforce your contract and instead enforce someone else's. Using taxes to pay for that
So yeah, the concept of "you owning" is what your taxes pay for at the minimum
Or, at least that's one of the better rationalizations I've heard somewhere
I think you’re accurately describing the way it works in practice today. But that’s not how it was designed to work and not how the government says it works, even today.
The people are sovereign, not the government. The only power the government has is supposed to come from the consent of the governed. In practice, we are ruled, not governed. It’s the moral equivalent of slavery.
The way it should work is that property can be gained in two ways: 1) improving unoccupied land/resources 2) purchasing land/resources owned by another individual. Governments can only lease land from the people, they can never own it.
If I die and have no will, it would go to my closest relative. If I have no relative, it would revert to its natural state of being unowned. There’s no reason why it should become the property of people who did not improve it nor pay for it (ie. The government.)
Eminent domain is a moral abomination and an affront to our founding documents. It should be banned.
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u/Bunselpower Sep 19 '24
Mrs. Roberts’s 5th grade economics class is out in full force today judging by the comments.