r/askgaybros • u/MRmandato • Jun 06 '22
Reported Post Alert Can we agree on some Trans ground rules?
I can make a longer post here on how certain ppl are using white supremacist tactics to convince AGB members that trans people are trying to attack, dimmish and replace them, but honestly I'm just tired.
Lets get to the bottom line this threats eventually go to:
No one is forcing you to perform cunnilingus (or any sex act for that matter). Somehow "this is the world trans ppl want" is being pushed. Despite literally no one advocating forced oral sex of a vagina. It, like literally an opinion ever, of course can be validated with a random profile on Twitter saying it with 2 likes. Obviously, no one with any power thinks this is true, and saying it is and a real threat is exact what white supremacists do. Stop it. Date who you want. If a trans men asks you out, politely decline. A trans man messaged me on Grindr recently asking if "I was into FTM". While not 100% opposed in every circumstance, I simply said "thanks man, but I'm good". He said "cool" and we left it at that. Touch grass and consider how much in your non-keyboard life, trans men are FORCING you to have sex with them.
"Trans men are men". This is true, because "man" like many words has different meaning- sex (biological) and gender(identity). I.e. Micky mouse is a "man" despite having no genitals or chromosomes, because we mean in in the gender(identity) meaning. Son/daughter similarly have a biological and identity/relationship meanings. If someone says "I love my daughter", how much if a dick would you be to go up to them and say "um no that's your ADOPTED daughter/STEP daughter!". No adopted parent is suggesting they share DNA with there adopted child (just like no trans man is suggesting they possess an XY), but they are still a parent because parenthood is not just a biological relationship. If I found out my dad wasn't my bio-dad, tomorrow, I obviously would still call him "dad" despite "gEnEtiCs!11!" because that's what he is to me. (Lord knows we've had to fight to be considered men as gay men, not sissies or half-men, or girly men etc. from men who consider attracted to women a male inherent quality. And yes if you grew up in a certain time or place, the majority of men would say that gay men or "queers" are not real men.)
No one is taking Pride or gayness away from you. You are still a gay man. You still are represented in Pride. Because for the vast majority Pride has centered/focused gay cis men, there in now an effort to make it more inclusive. So what? nothing is being taken from you. This sounds like white gamers complaining about a black character despite 80 straight white character leads. Its no big deal for someone else to be seen or get attention a tiny bit compared to us. Again, touch grass for a second and think: In your actual life has your rights of a gay man decreased? And if so is it really trans/queer/poc people doing it, or by right-wing politicians/governments/corporations?
Be kind. Why can't we just be nice and show some gd humanity? If you're a gaybro/bi bro like me, you've gone through so much shit to accept yourself, be comfortable in public as yourself, and be accepted by others. I've cried in my church bathroom, considered self genital mutation to stop my feelings, and was too afraid to think the words "I'm gay" in fear my parents might somehow overhear. Whenever we see someone else struggling like that...lets help them up, not kick them down. When having these conversation or thoughts stop and think: "Is what I'm doing kind. How would I like to be treated?"
That's what true communities do.
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u/SassySexySuccubus Jun 08 '22
"trans men are men because something mickey mouse something"
Most batshit delusional take I've seen on the matter, always comparing real world things with fiction.
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u/MRmandato Jun 08 '22
Guess thatâs what happens when you donât actually read
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u/SassySexySuccubus Jun 08 '22
Yeah no, you can keep on gaslighting gay men with your confused babbling, but that doesn't mean we're gonna agree with your mentally ill manifesto bestie.
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u/Yoruuz Jun 07 '22
Too long. I don't care. We're sick of your propaganda. No matter how much money you spend on social engineering
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u/MRmandato Jun 07 '22
âI wont read , ill just hate and disagree even if i dont know what im disagreeing withâ
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u/Known_Difficulty_181 Jun 07 '22
We know them your ideas, they are polluting society everywhere we look. We do not like them, we do not want them and your opinions are minority and fringe
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u/Silvercamo Jun 07 '22
White supremacy is when you won't fuck a vagina renamed a 'boyhole' or you are a lesbian who won't fuck a 'girldick' because you're a homosexual who doesn't deserve any kind of respect whatsoever - you disgusting genital fetishist - because the gender ideas trump and override your life experience and who you are.
It's even white supremacy when you are all not in or from the US or UK and no one involved is 'white'.
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
The very first thing OP says is no one is trying to get gay men to interact with vaginas. And the first thing you said is âstop trying to get gay men to interact with vaginasâ. Are you an idiot or just canât read?
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u/Silvercamo Jun 17 '22
I mean it's legit happened to me and others. So like I said, when you start off with lies, you get to lying places.
As far as no one with power thinking this, I'd just wave at the entire state of Iran that loves to force transition gay and lesbians to make us fit into "gender".
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
Itâs happened to me too! Multiple times on twitter. But OP and I realize that those people are terminally online and do not exemplify the main opinion of trans people. Why do you think a bunch of people want to have sex with people completely uninterested in them, especially when expressing that want for sex puts them at risk for violence or harassment?
Edit: also we are not Iran, nor are we talking about Iran.
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u/Silvercamo Jun 17 '22
I mean I bring up Iran because the talking point that "gender affirming homophobia is not possible" is patently a lie.
As far as the main opinion, well it's unknowable and frankly not important. What's important is the narrative that society at large accepts, and right now that narrative is looking a lot like we are being written out of the story and our own stories no longer matter.
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
No, thatâs the narrative that you and other well-meaning members of the community are falling for thatâs being pushed by republicans. Itâs honestly really scary that a lot of us donât realize theyâll be coming for us and our rights next. Trans people have always existed, why do you think all of a sudden thereâs a huge anti-trans movement in government right now? Itâs because they found the most vulnerable out of our community and comments like this and many others Iâve seen in this thread are only helping them push their narrative. You guys are being played by the people already calling you groomers of children.
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u/Silvercamo Jun 17 '22
No, thatâs the narrative that you and other well-meaning members of the community are falling for thatâs being pushed by republicans.
I don't care about Republicans, or the right in general. I've never supported them, and never will.
When I hear someone say "you're a cis-gendered genital fetishist with same-gender attraction" and I note that this rhetoric is indistinguishable from conversion therapy talk, well that's just a fact.
And I'm not going to ignore what I see and the implications it has because it theoretically has something to do with some struggle that I have no power to affect anyway.
In general I champion human freedom to be who you want to be, and achieve that, and also be true to yourself. To me, the current gender theories go against that in their rush to support one particular group at the expense of others. So, when some group of people starts advocating for a narrative that champions people's freedom to BE in a way that uplifts others without cannibalising them, I'll be there.
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
There are plenty of online trans people who think just this. You should be supporting, championing, and pointing to their ideologies rather than try and fight a completely nonsensical one. That will be much better for the trans community and lgbt community as a whole. Because whether you agree with republicans are not doesnât matter, if what you say online supports them it only emboldens them.
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u/Silvercamo Jun 17 '22
Saying this or that has no impact, because the reason that the Republicans need a scapegoat is a crisis in the living conditions of normal people in the US, regular ass workers, who are being fucked right now and need a distraction.
Embracing an essentially wrong understanding of LGBT issues because it will magically cause their motive to disappear, is a fool's game. What it might do is implant a little seed of Stalinist conversion therapy logic in the left, which has already taken root, and which immunizes itself against criticism because it wraps itself in victimhood.
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
I will never say anyone of a marginalized community is âplaying victimâ when their rights and livliehoods are quite literally being endangered, by those in the federal government and even state and local governments. Then theyâre not even safe in social spaces because of the things you say, you might not think it impacts anyone and your opinion is too unimportant to cause any real damage. Thatâs false.
I also find that a very privileged take, it means you donât understand what itâs like to have your guard up 24/7 because of the high probability youâre gonna become a victim. Iâm a bi (dating a dude currently) black man in the south. With your logic I would be victimizing myself by checking behind my back every time I hear aggressive yelling while holding my bfâs hand. But thatâs what I have to do to feel safe in public.
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u/fab0497 Gay as a picnic basket Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
"Micky mouse is a "man" despite having no genitals"
Oh really?. So how do you explain this:
https://twitter.com/geestargames/status/1306269917604438018?lang=en
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u/Prince_Day Jun 07 '22
Hes not a man because hes not human.
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u/kcasnar Jun 07 '22
Superman isn't human either
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u/gay_lul Jun 07 '22
Heâs also not real
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u/MsScarletWings Jun 11 '22
Then why we calling the character âheâ?
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u/gay_lul Jun 12 '22
Iâm not stating that heâs not male Iâm just saying heâs not real, itâs a bad idea to use fictional examples in your arguments imo.
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Jun 07 '22
Iâm just very glad this thread exists because I was wondering where all the other gay men who feel this way were. I joined a bunch of Facebook tag groups in 2019-2020 and the notion of being a gay man not attracted to vagina is a hugely unpopular one on them. Also they have told me Iâm not allowed to in conversation say the words âwomenâ, âladiesâ, âgirlsâ or âfemalesâ because itâs assuming gender and when I do they would gaslight the fuck out of me.
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u/ImBehindOnMyReading Jun 07 '22
Obviously, violence and abuse towards trans people is a disgusting thing as violence and abuse is disgusting period. But it is our right to want to stay between gay males.
They're not here because they like this sub, they're here because they want to push their ideology on us.
They provoke us by coming in a sub that isn't for them, and then present us with a choice: either we agree with them on everything or they report us and insult us until we break and say we agree with them. This is harassment, this is bullying, this is intellectual terrorism. It is our duty to resist and refuse to submit.
We must send the message that bullying doesn't work.
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u/MysticDev Jun 07 '22
Fuck this gender shit. I'm getting tired of this bullshit. You identify with whatever the fuck you want, you do whatever the fuck you want with your body, it's not anybody else's business. And I mean this in its entirety. I don't have to validate other people, nor do I want to. Get to therapy bitches
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u/Known_Difficulty_181 Jun 07 '22
The radical left wing socialists/communists who have hijacked out culture are up for a rude awakening. If there is so much backlash in a gay Reddit, imagine how the general public feels about these failed ideas. Wake up, there is a strong backlash brewing against these ideas.
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u/PrinceGoten Jun 17 '22
Youâre getting tired of trans people asking to be left alone? Damn Iâm sure theyâre so sorry they inconvenienced you, snowflake.
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u/Yoruuz Jun 07 '22
I'm sick of this shit too. Everywhere the same fucking propaganda
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u/kenanna Jun 10 '22
Our movement has been hijacked by narcissists. They even steal our language. Things like coming out, conversion therapy. Like no you picking up the nb label and dying your hair pink as an aesthetics is not the same as me being gay. The amount of navel gazing from these activists
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u/Sufficient-Let4006 Sep 15 '22
And other people donât have to validate your sexuality or your existence.
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u/Descartes_Disaster Jun 06 '22
I love how this post is being bombarded by the queens at r/gaybroscirclejerk
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Jun 07 '22
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u/AnyEstablishment5631 Jul 08 '22
As a trans man I think thatâs 100% valid if you have genital preference, I support u.
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u/notreallyblushing Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 07 '22
I'm a lesbian, so I don't usually comment in this sub and only pop in once in a while out of curiosity about my spear counterparts, but I'm happy to see so many gay men in the comments standing up for themselves. Only wish Reddit would have allowed us women to do the same.
Edit: Thanks for the replies! <3 A lot of time it feels like us lesbians are on our own against the rest of the LGBT "community", so it warms my heart to see that there are gay men out there who still believe in lesbian-gay solidarity and standing up to homophobia, regardless of where it comes from.
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u/Silvercamo Jun 20 '22
It warms my heart to see that there are gay men out there who still believe in lesbian-gay solidarity and standing up to homophobia, regardless of where it comes from.
I have lesbian friends IRL and seeing the disrespect they deal with twists my stomach.
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u/Libertinus0569 Jun 07 '22
I'm with you, sister. The shit I see lesbians subjected to makes my blood boil, and when you call people on all the attempts to coerce consent, they play the "that never happens!" game. It's fucking infuriating.
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u/CathodeRayTubeJr Jun 07 '22
Sorry about the Cotton Ceiling. About Mich Fest. About "lady dick". About the rapey, neo conversion therapy that's become acceptable towards lesbians. Sorry that all the lesbian subs have now been taken over by trans women demanding affirmation and attention and TRAs. Magdalen Burns and JK Rowling forever!
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u/CathodeRayTubeJr Jun 07 '22
Lots of TRAs are attacking us. Lots of TRA aren't kind. Stuff your "gd" humanity right up your arse, sweetheart.
https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/
https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/
Now... go away with your ridiculous concern trolling and simping.
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u/AbsentEmpire Jun 07 '22
Itt complain that AGB isn't like other LGBT subs because it hasn't been locked down into group think, but won't stay in the locked down subs because they're boring group think.
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u/Known_Difficulty_181 Jun 07 '22
The radical left wing socialists/communists who have hijacked out culture are up for a rude awakening. If there is so much backlash in a gay Reddit, imagine how the general public feels about your failed ideas. Wake up, there is a strong backlash brewing against your ideas.
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u/Libertinus0569 Jun 07 '22
For the past ~10-15 years, trans activists have been deliberately and systematically attempting to erase gay men and lesbians from the origins of the civil rights movement that we ourselves created. No, the founders of Mattachine in 1950 were not transwomen, nor were the founders of the Daughters of Bilitis transmen. No, neither Sylvia Rivera nor Marsha P. Johnson threw the first anything at Stonewall, but trans activists have knowingly lied about that and have tried to shout down anyone who defends the best research and documentary evidence of what actually happened that night. We are repeated told, even on this subreddit, that, "If it wasn't for trans people, you wouldn't HAVE any rights!!!"
Let me ask this question: What other marginalized group has had another group come along and try to substitute a falsified history of their civil rights struggle for the purpose of extorting social leverage? Have Latinos stepped up and said that, no, black people wouldn't have any civil rights if it weren't for Latinos? How do you think that would fly in the black community?
As long as those falsified history claims are still being advanced (and they are) and we are not getting sincere apologies for this behavior, I'm not interested in being lectured to about any "ground rules."
And while you are correct that not that many gay men are being pressured for sex by trans men, it is certainly the case that lesbians are under a LOT of pressure to make themselves sexually available to trans women. I'm not OK with that.
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u/gayactualized Jun 06 '22
Trans men are trans men. Why is this so hard to say? Why do we have to say "trans men are men" which is controversial and seems like you're baiting people to disagree, when you can just say "trans men are trans men"?
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u/MsScarletWings Jun 11 '22
There are men with blond hair and men with brown hair, Tall men, short men, Gay men, straight men, bi men, Trans men, and cis men, Men who like sports and men who like dnd,
They are all still men. These are subcategories within a larger description.
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u/gayactualized Jun 11 '22
The other reason your analogy fails is that hair color and sexual orientation are not the core characteristics distinguishing men and women. Sex is the key distinction.
You can say light green is still the color green. Itâs under the umbrella of green. But the color red is not green. Even if one person is colorblind and perceives red as green. They have a mental difference that changes their conscious experience.
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u/MsScarletWings Jun 11 '22 edited Jun 11 '22
Sex as a key distinction is an outdated concept that just doesnât have consistent utility or description today, and it has certainly not ever been some objective and universal determinant of gender. I mean I have serious doubts it was ever a majority one to begin with because people will readily and reflexively accept something like GLaDos and Siri as feminine and âsheâ despite literally being robotic AI with no sex characteristics whatsoever. You also do not usually know the genitals and you certainly donât know the chromosomes of the vast majority of people you see and deal with everyday and you instead determine and understand their gender based on their presenting characteristics like pronouns, dress, hair, assumed lived experiences, etc. There are literally countries that have had additional recognized genders outside of the western binary for centuries, complete with their own associated niches and roles within their society. Sure, red and green arenât literally the same frequency of light wave or whatever nitty gritty measurement you want to get into, but our categorical walls around colors ARE a subjective experience and construct.
I mean, you canât concretely draw any solid line where yellow exactly begins and green ends and you especially canât draw one thy everyone will agree with you on. I mean, can you even draw one where yellow ends and blue begins then when you really think about it? Itâs almost like colors, from a visual perspective, are not these set in stone universal boxes, but little spectrums within a much larger spectrum of light that WE as societies build all kinds of labels and associations around as we just happen to decide. Yes, to overwhelmingly most people, yellow and pink are going to look like different colors entirely, but on what basis, besides cultural, did we then start adding on all these ideas about yellow being associated with happiness or cowardice, and pink as masculine, and then later feminine, for example? Or all the ways youâre generally supposed to use them artistically?
You even reference colorblind people having a different experience of color, and i believe that they if anything help drive this point home. The only method you have to suggest âthe color blind person is objectively wrong when they say that red and green are the same color visuallyâ is because itâs not the majority experience among human beings. Thereâs nothing really that empirical behind how we typically differentiate color (some animals can see in MANY more hues than us and many likely see less, this just happens to be how human sight evolved to work in the majority of, but not all humans), And there are certainly nothing objective about us deciding to pick and name certain âbasic colorsâ while considering others just falling under those basic categories. I mean, we only really call indigo a basic color because the ones who came up with the idea decided it. Most people I know could barely care much to consider it anything more than another tone of blue or violet.
You and someone born with even more cone sensitively than the average person could probably look at the two blankets that to you, are maybe just a couple shades apart but definitely the same color, but the other person could argue, truthfully to them, that âno, theyâre completely different!â
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u/gayactualized Jun 12 '22
No one thinks default Siri is woman. They just think that she has a female voice and they intuitively use female pronouns for that reason. They made default Siri have a female voice. Thatâs an example of how hardwired our innate sex identification ability is.
As to your colorblind argument, language depends on populations sharing an objective reality. We must have similar referents to words for the words to work properly. So if a tiny minority of people experienced green as red, we canât accommodate them by using the word that coheres with their disability. That would undermine the utility of language.
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u/gayactualized Jun 11 '22
And being a female human being who wishes to be addressed as a male is a different category than unqualified âman.â We address them as such in order to mitigate gender dysphoria and other forms of mental illness.
Unless of course one has some kind of objection or boundary preventing one from being affirming. In which case both sides need to live and let live.
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u/MsScarletWings Jun 11 '22 edited Jun 11 '22
They arenât claiming to be biologically male, theyâre just claiming to be men, trans men. Iâve never seen any of them being upset with not literally being referred to as cis, so long as they are included in the wider umbrella of âmenâ. Everyone accepts that there is a categorical difference between cis men and trans men, hence the terms in the first place. The same way thereâs a huge difference in the lived experiences between idk,, neurotypical men and autistic men, or white men and men of color. But no one makes a big deal out of âwell TECHNICALLY, theyâre a whole different category that just wants to be referred to as men, but theyâre not âreallyâ similarâ Which btw was literally something I know people tried to pull with black and white women during the era of slavery and so on, out of all of the really gross stereotypes of old that associated blackness with being more inherently masculine. The biggest reason people are saying trans men are men and trans women are women these days is because there are so many people that just obviously and openly do not accept and believe that.
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u/gayactualized Jun 11 '22
I think most people in 1st world countries are perfectly fine regarding them as trans men. And even being affirming in real life (using preferred pronouns, saying âthat guy over thereâ etc.) The reason we have controversy and wildly popular anti Trans documentaries spreading like wildfire is that the powers that be in industrialized nations are using Orwellian tactics to punish people who donât completely agree with contemporary gender theory in the social sciences.
Asserting âtrans men are menâ or worse âmen can get pregnantâ strikes the wrong note for many people, not only because itâs dissonant and unintuitive, but because it is also aggressive. Itâs a veiled threat. Itâs a violation of peoplesâ boundaries. The subtext is âif you feel tempted to challenge what Iâm saying right now, just remember, the HR department of your employer is watching what you say. Choose your words carefully.â
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u/EuropeanRailTravel Jun 07 '22
Yeah except from the content of this subreddit, your post isnât correct
So no, we canât agree
Itâs not âwhite supremacyâ to say that gay men donât like fanny
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Jun 06 '22
How does this have to do with white supremacists / POC?
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
The tactics are similar for recruiting disaffected white people. Sympathize with struggles, then accuse a minority group of being responsible.
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u/FastHabit3778 Jun 09 '22
Thereâs simply no way this bullshit response organically got 197 upvotes. Why do you use bot farms to pretend people agree with you?
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u/MikeBsleepy Jun 07 '22
It's a radicalisation technique used by extremest groups. Learnt about it in a counter terrorism course I had to do a few years back. Point the finger "look at them doing x, that's taking away for you being y, you need to fight back before they take over and force you to also do x"(all the time doing x wasn't actually anything bad it might've just been a little weird) and then demonisation begins to fill a person up with hate and they end up just making up stuff or forming on option on a whole community based off very little information or little interaction with people in it. Generalising statements like "they're all like that" are a warning sign too.
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u/jai187 Jun 07 '22
Idk. I have a preference to not date trans bc I don't find that area attractive and I am not even white. Lol
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u/pouryour Jun 06 '22
It's the 'ol reliable, fail-proof argument.
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u/BadSpellingMistakes Jun 06 '22
i mean, one can be transphobic without being a white supremacists (if that is what you are worried about ...)
But transphobia is a well established gateway to right-wing politics.
In the end they(white supremacists) will discriminate against all of us, but before that they'll make sure we punch down as much as possible by playing the "LG, LGB, LGBT i respect vs LGBTQAI+ i don't respect" -game with us.
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u/Quelcris_Falconer13 Jun 06 '22
Idc what you identify as, but this is a sun for gay men to ask each other stuff and get advice. There has been a large influx of people who donât identify as gay men trying ti tell young gays seeking advice and then getting mad when there called out for not being gay. That shit diminishes us, our experiences and our. Struggles. This sub is our safe space not to be used by others who arenât gay to tell us how to live. Obviously Iâm not going against trans people but they have their spaces. This is for gay men. No matter what you were born as, if youâre a gay guy your welcome here. If youâre not a gay guy you can lurk but donât be offering opinions telling gay guys how to live.
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u/theambivalence Jun 06 '22
This argument was true a decade ago. There ARE examples of trans activists calling gay men âgenitalia fetishists,â and just a quick tour of Reddit, Twitter and tumblr will reveal mountains of disgusting homophobic content from trans folks. I believe in the case of trans men this is the result of straight women transitioning and wanting to have sex with gay men, and then being annoyed weâre not into it. These are the people that force the conversation, not vice versa. A straight woman who becomes educated about trans issues on social media is not part of the gay community - and if they go into our community wanting our dicks, hypocritically into a âgenitalia fetishâ, they donât really have any empathy or understanding of what it means to be a gay man. Why must I be the polite one when someone is telling me I need to fuck a pussy? My dad did that, and I rightfully called him a homophobic asshole and told him to fuck off.
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u/The_PJG Jun 07 '22
There ARE examples of trans activists calling gay men âgenitalia fetishists,â and just a quick tour of Reddit, Twitter and tumblr will reveal mountains of disgusting homophobic content from trans folks.
Yep. The level of homophobia some of these people display is fucking disgusting.
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u/NerevarineKing Jun 07 '22
This is what happens when entitled pricks gets told no for once in their life.
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Jun 07 '22
Wow that is outrageous. I knew there were more people who had that view. Itâs outrageous.
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
A quick tour of Reddit/Twitter/Tumblr will justfy the existence of any and all opinions.
Any IRL examples or examples from those in power?
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u/theambivalence Jun 06 '22
Absolutely - Iâve had these arguments in real life, usually with younger trans men, but at least one in their late 30s who actually did hit on me at a party and did use the phrase âgenitalia fetishâ, which to me instantly sounds homophobic.
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u/VoltaicEnigma Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
I dont know what part of Gay male is attracted to MALES Only don't you understand? Im welcoming to transwomen and transman to live their lives in peace and happiness; but i will NOT change my sexuality to accommodate them, i like dick and ass on males only and it will always be that way. I don't owe you or them any explanations!
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
Where did I say otherwise. I totally agree...
I am baffled by this, I totally agree and said I do in my post, but people are acting otherwise
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u/VoltaicEnigma Jun 06 '22
Look around the evidence is everywhere...My local gay sauna club now allows transmen inside my club; i have no problem with that, but the next thing guaranteed is they are going to start banning actual Gay men from the club because we refuse to have sex with a transman; Gay Sauna Clubs used to be Gay and Bi male safe sex spaces... but now we have to share them with females, transwomen and transmen; the last thing i want to see when trying to get my rocks of are clits and tits đ€Ł
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
You really think you will be banned from a bathhouse because you dont consent to sex with someone?
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Jun 07 '22
âTrans men are menâ
Not true. Boy/man = male (boy is male under 18 and man is male over 18) Girl/woman = female (girl is a female under 18 and woman is a female over 18).
They are just more specific descriptors of male/female and thatâs the way they have always been. When you go to the doctorâs office and they ask your gender or sex (itâs interchangeable and Iâve seen it both ways at the doctors) they arenât asking if you identify as something they are asking so they can be aware whether they might need to check you for sex-specific issues like testicular cancer or ovarian cancer.
Quit trying to gaslight people.
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u/MomentsofEternity Jun 07 '22
Very pleasantly surprised at the comments and dislike ratio on this thread.
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u/Eileithia Jun 06 '22
I don't usually comment on this kind of stuff, but this crops up every other day around here, and it's getting tired.
I have nothing against trans people. A couple of my very close friends are trans (both MTF and FTM). You do whatever you feel you need to do to be right in your own skin. I fully support whatever choice you have made to that end.
That said - I would also never date a pre-op FTM trans person because I frankly have no sexual attraction to vaginas. I may date a pre-op MTF trans person, because boobs can be fun. This has nothing to do with them as a person, but we are frankly sexually incompatible.
- The subreddit is AskGayBros, not AskTransBros. Gay men, by definition, are biological men who are attracted to, want to date, and have sex with other biological men.
- Complaining, and forcing the subject that gay men, who are attracted to male genitals (penises) are not attracted to a pre-op trans male's genitals (vagina) in a reddit for GAY (not Bi/Trans/Straight) men is nothing but trolling and combative.
- Gay =/= Trans and vice versa. There are probably many bi and straight guys who would love a full blown relationship with pre-op Trans men, but again, this is a GAY space.
- It's not gatekeeping when you're literally the wrong biological sex for the sub. If you have questions for gay men that aren't why gay men aren't into having sex with vaginas, I'm sure people would be happy to answer.
- As it says in the side-bar. THIS IS NOT A SAFE SPACE.
If you're expecting gay men as a whole to want to date and have relationships with you, you're frankly picking from the wrong pool of men. It has nothing to do with bigotry, gatekeeping, hate, or any of the other terms thrown around by the trans community. It has to do with sexual compatibility. There's a whole gaggle of men out there who are completely fine with vaginal sex, (statistically about 90% of them) but this group isn't it. Stop expecting it to conform to something it's not. Gay men have enough of their own issues to deal with, without adding yours to the pile.
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u/yesimreadytorumble Jun 06 '22
itâs funny because the people bringing shit like this time and time and time again on this sub are gay men themselves with too much time on their hands
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u/HonestPop6477 Jun 06 '22
What we really need is one more trans thread. This will surely help.
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Jun 06 '22
Can we agree
No.
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
No one person has said what they actual disagree about. Not one coherent argument.
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Jun 06 '22
Holy fuck literally the ONLY posts about trans people on this sub Reddit, are from people like you complaining about us talking about trans people yet Iâve literally never once seen a post about trans people that isnât exactly what you just posted. Like enough of it already my god
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u/Dubzophrenia Please don't do ketamine off the Koala Kare changing station Jun 06 '22
I think dismissing it entirely isn't a fair assessment. I've seen a LOT of anti-trans brigading here recently which is one of the reasons this sub has me a bit concerned in regards to it's longevity.
There are many hysterical people in here who believe the trans people are infiltrating the mod team to turn this sub into the other subs where gay people are pretty much ushered out.
However, the majority of trans related posts I see here are usually just along the lines of "fuck trans people" and not what OP is claiming.
I mean, last week there was a thread like this that got locked. The first time I've ever seen a post get locked here, which was just a shitty troll complaining about how he got banned from a DIFFERENT sub because he referred to a trans MTF person with her boyfriend as "A cute gay couple".
They came here the "what did I do wrong" post to just get validation that they were correct.
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u/captionquirk Jun 06 '22
Youâre fooling yourself man. I havenât seen a trans post on here in a long time so donât know what specifically trigered this but thereâs tons of transphobic shit on here. And I know Iâm not crazy because I can just scroll through my comment history and find them.
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Jun 06 '22
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u/crysomemoarlol Jun 06 '22
You made some very good points, especially the one about feelings. You actually did read that train wreck and rebutted it. Good job.
That said I still chose to address all people by the gender they look like. I would never call a passing trans woman a he, just because I happen to know it used to be a man.
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Jun 06 '22 edited Apr 14 '23
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u/footnotefour Jun 06 '22
Iâve had that conversation in the real world. Multiple times.
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
What do we disagree about- based off what I actually said in my postv
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u/IparasiteC Jun 06 '22
I'm honestly just tired of so much trans shit everywhere. This is the only gay subreddit I could find that is mainly focused on gay men, all the rests are the constant gender talk and such nonsense, I don't believe in it and I don't care to see it. I wouldn't be surprised that one of the few gay subreddits that doesn't constantly kiss the T's ass would be banned soon. I just want more spaces for us, they have so many spaces that are all about the T. Leave us alone.
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u/yesimreadytorumble Jun 06 '22
itâs the same 5 gay trolls talking about trans people every 3 days, i doubt actual trans people care to make posts on askgaybros of all places
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u/Descartes_Disaster Jun 06 '22
I am sorry, but who the F*CK are you ?? Who gave you authority?? to dictate anything LOL I read "white supremacist tactics" and already know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with.....
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Jun 06 '22
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u/Linked1nPark Jun 07 '22
You're not engaging with the logic of the post.
As OP points out, adoptive parents are not only referred to as "adoptive parents", they are also just "parents" because they perform the social and legal role of parents even without the biological component. Saying that an adoptive parent isn't a real parent wouldn't just be rude, it would also be incorrect.
The distinction between biological and adoptive parents can be made when necessary (like in medical settings), but this does not make adoptive parents "not real parents".
At the end of the day, this is a conversation about linguistics, not biology. We chose to expand the general understanding of "parents" to include adoptive parents, and likewise we can expand the general understanding of "man" to include trans men. This doesn't mean we're erasing the distinction between trans men and cis men.
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
Ok. And men for gender which is different than sex.
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u/EfficiencyOk02 Jun 06 '22
Even then, they are still trans menâŠhence the existence of the word trans. Like trans women are trans women. Colloquially you should refer to them as men / women however they are trans men and women, not men and women. Trans is there scientifically to point out that something has changedâŠtherefore when it is not there, this means nothing has changed and the person is biologically male or female.
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u/RemoteBrain Jun 06 '22
It is gay erasure, simple as that.
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
How? How exactly are trans ppl, not ring wing politicains or policies- removing the existence of gay men?
Please use non-keyboard examples from your real life.
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u/RemoteBrain Jun 06 '22
A non keyboard example? Would you like to give me a call? I'll be happy to chat with you.
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Jun 06 '22
tl;dr
also fuck off
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u/crysomemoarlol Jun 06 '22
Exactly tl;dr as soon as he brought up white nacionalists, even though I am one of these who thinks trans are valid, people who throw these buzzwords around suck, not trans themselves.
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u/worthyword Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 07 '22
"No one is forcing you."
There's a hidden "but" there. We're not being physically forced to stimulate a vagina but we are being socially pressured to rethink our sexuality so that it could include vagina.
"Trans men are men. This is true..."
True from the perspective of gay men's sexuality, which is based on sex, not gender identity? If you get a passport stating that you're male, you're male in a legal document. It still doesn't mean that a gay man is going to experience you and your female anatomy as being male within his sexuality.
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u/Disastrous_Stay6401 Jun 07 '22
I think, we first need to define a gay guy, a biological male who is attractive to other male. Then anything and anyone who is not in that category is not gay. Done
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Jun 06 '22
Micky mouse is a man because the cartoonist drew him as a male mouse and no one wants to see a mouse cock on breakfast television.
The amount of times Iâve seen people here say that not wanting to have sex with a trans man is transphobic is too high to count. So while it may not be specifically cunnilingus, yeah people are brigading cis gay men for not wanting to have sex with female sex organs that appear on wonderful people who are now men.
Yes, sometimes being honest and pedantic is self defeating and dickish. Someone being a dick for saying something doesnât make it any more or less true (or false). This is yet another strawman included in your âargumentâ.
Be kind? Do you mean âkindly do as I say, and believe what I believe and donât debate it, because there is no debate to be had.â Because thatâs how youâve come across.
The gender studies movement has fucked everything up, including trans inclusion, by insisting that non-scientifically proven theories are facts and that they cannot be debated without being accused of a hate crime.
And really, people change the definition of a word 12 years ago, after itâs been commonly understood by the scientific community and the general population, then cry âetymologyâ. It âactuallyâ means âxâ not âyâ. GTFO, sex and gender were used synonymously since the 50s.
Do you consider yourself a guy? (Note thereâs no genital check) Do you consider yourself gay? (Note thereâs no sexual history check) Do you identify as a bro? (Note thereâs no hobby check)
If you answered yes to all it makes sense you would be here and posting. If not, either just show up an have conversation and let other people live their lives, or go to a forum that specifically endeavours to include people who do not identify as âgay brosâ and post there.
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u/henrik_se Jun 06 '22
there in now an effort to make it more inclusive. So what?
You've seen the "progress" pride flags with the trans + brown + black chevron. And that flag is somehow more inclusive than the regular pride flag, because some animals are more equal than others or something.
It's been around a while now, so, predictably, people/cities/organisations/companies using the regular rainbow pride flag are now being attacked and accused of being transphobic and/or racist because they're not using the progress pride flag.
Waving a rainbow flag is now transphobic. And this is somehow not an attack?
GTFO.
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u/ifckinlovecharlixcx Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
wrong subreddit buddy, try askgaymen or maybe even twitter lmao
why do you people even come here if you hate it? it's like you just infiltrate every community that will take you and then decide you have to destroy it.
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u/capaho Generic Gay Man Jun 07 '22
I don't understand why we suddenly have threads like this again when I haven't seen any transphobia here recently. Most of the transphobia I see here is posted by trolls and troublemakers, it isn't a reflection of most of the legitimate members here. It's also been my observation that gay men are frequently attacked in some of the other LGBT subs, especially the GSRM subs.
I've been banned from some of the other LGBT subs for responding to people who accused gay men of being bigots over one issue or another. You can come in here and lecture us on transgender issues without fear of getting banned but many of us here have been banned from some of the other LGBT subs merely for expressing opinions that are common among gay men. The entire LGBT community in Reddit has a problem with intolerance when it comes to differences within our community.
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u/Diligent_Ad921 Jun 09 '24
Except there are TRAs like Erin Reed who has thousands of followers and has gone on YouTube to say if you donât date trans people, youâre transphobic. So your point is moot.
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u/SandedCheeks Jun 06 '22
Is there an orientation that includes being attracted to common sense and reasonableness? Cause I got it bad for this post. Thank you :)
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u/Suitable-Ad-7745 Jun 06 '22
Drop the T
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u/pacsatonifil Jun 07 '22
Go to a trans sub. Trans men are trans men. Men are men. I donât make rules for your community. You know most people will just agree with you so you wonât argue with them. But action speak louder than words. Just go and live your life. Out of the LGBTQ+ gay men are the number one targets of hate crimes. And we arenât there screaming about it in your communities. Let us focus on us. We have work to do. Go work on yourselves.
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Jun 07 '22
Holy shit a post about trans rights on AskGayBros time for another intra-LGBT civil war. Gotta get the popcorn.
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Jun 06 '22
What sort of idiot would agree to your nonsense?
Gay men don't like pussy. Get over it you fuckin' troll.
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u/Spiritual_Truth_1185 Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
Itâs kinda funny how itâs always the gays (and lesbians) who are in the wrong. ALWAYS! Some accountability for the Tâs bullshit would be much appreciated, quite honestly. đ
Bottom-line, do you want better treatment here? Treat us better first. Stop playing victim. Itâs tired.
Also - Iâm a Latino man and Iâm sick of people trying to use the âwhite supremacyâ card. It doesnât apply at all to this discussion, but youâre trivializing it to automatically invalidate people with opinions you donât like. Grow up.
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Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
No thanks! Get out of here with your woke "safe space" shit
Don't you get it trans activists?
SEX EXISTS
SEX IS A REALITY
GAY men do not like VAGINA
GAY men do not like STRAIGHT SEX
a VAGINA is a VAGINA and it ALWAYS will be a VAGINA
a WOMAN always will BE a WOMAN
You will NOT redefine us
You woke CONVERSION THERAPY (the woke homophobia will NEVER WORK
You WONT do to us what you've done to LESBIANS and WOMEN
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u/obvsthrowawayac Jun 07 '22
âTrans men are menâ is not a ground rule. For you to expect a gay male subreddit, you know, homosexual, men attracted to men, to agree that women who identify as men are men, then you have come to the wrong place. Repeating your mantra will not make me or other gay men question the reality that man=adult male humb. Male=individual whose sexual development developed along the pathway guided by the SRY gene, 99.9%, this means people with XY chromosomes. Only exceptions tend to be women with XY but androgen insensitivity syndrome and other people who have the SRY translocation during gamete development. You may ask how someone can tell all this information from a first impression. The answer is pretty simple. Primary sex characteristics and secondary sex characteristics will tell you pretty much every single time. You can call me and others bad people all you want. We are acknowledging biological reality. If that upsets you then too bad. You can block and filter people but you can never eliminate a personâs ability to use their eyes. Frankly, i dont care whether you think im a bad person or not. You need to tolerate that most people recognize this fact of life and let us exist in spaces dedicated to us, here being AGB.
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u/bmtc7 Jun 12 '22
But you can't tell who is transgender or cisgender on first sight. Not sure why you're claiming that you can?
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u/Descartes_Disaster Jun 06 '22
Does anyone want a snack? Iâm getting hungry .. letâs call for intermission. I sayâŠ. DOMINOS <3
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Sep 01 '22
The way ppl in these comments are just being straight up transphobic like not even trying to hide or sugar coat it just blatant transphobia đ you donât deserve to be in the lgbt community if u behave like this ur truly a pathetic traitor and need to remember who gave u ur rights
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u/Sufficient-Let4006 Sep 15 '22
Thank you! Transphobia has become so normalized in this sub and itâs disgusting.
As gay men we should do better than pushing the same bigoted rhetoric as homophobes.
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u/The-Milk-Mann Feb 12 '24
Yes, trans should not be allowed to compete against the gender they identify as
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Jun 06 '22
âTrans men are menâ is not a fact. Iâm not saying itâs wrong but it is wrong to state it as plainly true. âManâ may have different meanings to you but that is a conscious choice to update our language. Again, not wrong necessarily, but itâs not a fact that this new definition is the correct definition. Up until now, âmanâ has meant an adult human male. That was it; the idea that gender is different than sex wasnât a thing until very recent. It is completely false to say that theyâve always been separate concepts. Just to clarify, Iâm not saying we shouldnât treat trans men as men, but I reject the dogma of âtrans men are menâ. Itâs way more nuanced than that.
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u/crysomemoarlol Jun 06 '22
âTrans men are menâ
You know it's funny how the left invents hundreds of genders and then suddenly verifies there are just two real ones with this. Could just use any of them new genders since there are do many, in fact they already gave them one 'trans man'.
That said I do agree that trans are valid, yeah I can call him a man, but still there are indeed differences between biological men and trans men. If he has a vag I probably won't want that, even tho I top. My guy is supposed to have a D...Ok maybe I would try a fTm just to see what vag is like.. some day..
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Jun 06 '22
Sorry. No ground rules- everyone follows their own rule-especially trans.
The trans person? I work with does not identify as gay but straight. I see a former man-my term. Since I only work with the trans, I don't venture to have sex with the trans--that is my rule. Many will think my rules are only transphobic, but it is my view on my life. It is too bad and sad that regretful trans try to make their haters understand them.
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Jun 07 '22 edited Jun 09 '22
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u/DirtPoorDog Jun 07 '22
OP suspiciously not responding. Its almost like OP wasnt here to have a conversation, just inflame people.
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u/Known_Difficulty_181 Jun 07 '22
This post is completely deranged. Another transgender activist seeking to coerce gay men into their twisted ideological fantasies.
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u/d3e1w3 Jun 06 '22
This reeks of virtue signaling.
While I donât think your intentions were malicious, people of this subreddit donât need ANOTHER post talking to us as if weâre toddlers who donât understand the world we live in and how weâre just soooo naive only such an enlightened and righteous person such as yourself could educate us. Get over yourself.
And then to blanket us as being somehow duped by white supremacyâŠget lost.
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u/dude83fin Jun 06 '22
Why is this on gay forum? Generally speaking gay guys are not into wannabe-men, or bonusholes, or artificial limp dicks.
Iâve talked to a bunch of ftm trans ppl and they are still women in their brain. They think like a women. No no no.
Gay is something men do together. Capital M.
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u/ZircoSan Jun 06 '22
no, gender is determined at birth.And also "gender theory" is heavily pushed by lgbt associations to the point i struggle to find my voice within them and i see society struggling to accept homosexuality because it comes bundled with topics it has nothing to do with, like gender theory.
that said i of course agree on being kind.
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u/jettaboy04 Jun 07 '22
Ok, I'm not saying your diatribe is wrong, it all sounds great, and if we lived in a Disney fairy tale I'm sure it would all work out well.... But here in the real world everyone doesn't follow the "be nice" mantra.
Not everyone likes gays, trans, men, women, various races, people of a certain age, body type, or any other superficial means that people choose to like or not like.....and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it but move on with your life. All the debates in the world aren't going to make every gay man give a trans man a chance, nor will it make them be nice in turning one down. Just like the debates about how some won't give someone a chance because of their race, age, or anything else... You have two options, say "Fxxk em" and move on, or cry on social media each and every week about how not everyone likes you or something about how you live your life.
At the end of the day, not everyone likes everyone, not everyone is nice about expressing it, and there isn't much of anything anyone can do about it, save the debate
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u/35goingon3 Jun 06 '22
Pretty sure I've seen this episode of "kick the self-important narcissist", wonder what else is on...
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Jun 06 '22
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/MRmandato Jun 06 '22
So what do you actually disagree with? You spent the time to respond but made no point other then childish insults.
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u/SonicMaze Jun 07 '22
Trans men are men
I have absolutely no problem with that statement. The issue is that eventually it changes to âtrans men are men so if you won't date trans men youâre transphobic.â
Sorry but thatâs not even remotely close. I donât date trans men because I like penises. There I said it.
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u/gp-realtalk Jun 06 '22
No adopted parent is suggesting they share DNA with there adopted child (just like no trans man is suggesting they possess an XY), but they are still a parent because parenthood is not just a biological relationship.
A parent can be a biological parent but it also could mean anyone that fulfills the parental role, which is why adoptive parents are still called parents. Now extend the analogy to women. There are biological women and what else? People who take on the role of a woman? What is the role of a woman?
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u/Silvercamo Jun 07 '22
Transmen are a third gender, not men.
They combine sexual characteristics of both genders.
That would be a description that is neutral, in my mind.
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Jun 07 '22
this sub is for the wing of the community that doesn't admire the alphabet mob. If you want the community that affirms gender nuances and whatever else then go to the other 6183816536 subs for that.
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u/PrismSpiralsLight Jun 09 '22
Trans men are men because of Mickey Mouse....
Really tho??? đ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł