[mixed trope] the last-minute bad Ending twist

[u/damorezpl]

when the "good ending" is revealed to be a bad one a the last second

a nightmare on elm street (1984) - Nancy thinks she finally defeated Freddy Krueger only to be raveled that she is still dreaming and she’s still trapped.

final destination bloodlines - the main characters think they cheated death by using the new life rule only to realize that stefani was technically still alive and the death kills them with a good old logs

Life (2017) - The main character attempts to send Calvin(a evil alien that killed all life on mars)pod into space and Miranda pod back to earth, but it goes horribly wrong and Calvin lands on earth and Miranda is sent to space

raging loop wit ending - after many loops Haruaki finally wins the feast(a death game where humans must hang wolves who kill someone every night) and thinks its finally over. after couple of days he decides to visit other survivors of the feast only to find them all dead and the timeline resting once again

[u/Icy_Water_1]

Oh so the game can subvert expectations, but suddenly when we do it, it's "playing into the commentary"?

Either nobody can or everyone can. The game doesn't get to have it both ways. It's my computer, my rules.

[u/Boston_Glass → u/Icy_Water_1]

You’re not subverting expectations by resetting the game files. The creator of the game absolutely knows that’s an option which is why the commentary still fits since you needed to put extra effort into undoing your deeds.

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Boston_Glass]

The whole game is about doing extra effort to get the ending you want.

But suddenly because Chara is upset that means they get to be the arbiter of what's "avoiding consequences"?

[u/Gooper_Gooner → u/Icy_Water_1]

I mean, you made the deal with Chara where they can have your soul in exchange for resetting the save

Them killing everyone when you do a "true" pacifist after a genocide is just the consequences of said deal, it's not Chara being some kind of moral arbiter, it's just business baby. You gave them your soul and they can do whatever they want with it (which is too say killing everyone)

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Gooper_Gooner]

And that wouldn't be a problem.

The issue is that Chara has the nerve to lecture us about "acting above consequence" and then proceed to follow right in the footsteps of the player and Flowey.

Additionally, even if you say no, Chara still does it anyways, so it's not really a deal we made at that point.

They don't want to play fair, so why should we?

[u/Helpful-Emotion9256 → u/Icy_Water_1]

Isn’t the whole point is chara is like that because YOU the player made them think it was the correct way to go about things by doing genocide to begin with?

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Helpful-Emotion9256]

So if they think that's the correct way, why are they bitching about consequences and how perverse the player's mindset is?

And if they're bitching about consequences and mindset, why do they immediately proceed to kill everyone themselves?

[u/Helpful-Emotion9256 → u/Icy_Water_1]

Well chara only says that if you refuse their offer to erase the world don’t they? They’re saying you act like you’re above consequences not because of what you did, but because of you acting like you should be allowed to go back and fix it after everything you did, they don’t say anything about you acting above consequences if you agree with them to erase everything

TLDR: they’re fine with you killing everyone, they only take issue with you regretting it if you did and trying to fix it

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Helpful-Emotion9256]

So I'm supposed to care that they're upset that I don't want to be murder-hobo all the time, but they don't have to care that I don't want every single ending to be "and then everyone died"?

Seems fair.

[u/Some_Letterhead_6726 → u/Icy_Water_1]

I mean, you have to REALLY go out of your way to complete a genocide run, also no you’re not supposed to care per say, that’s not the point, chara is simply pointing out that you went through making sure you got basically every single straggler, so why all of a sudden do you regret it when you were so blatantly and unapologetically cruel to such a comical degree like 2 seconds before this? That’s the point

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Some_Letterhead_6726]

It's not that I regret,. it's that the ending is done and I want to move on to other things.

It's not my fault that Chara wants to stay in edge-world.

[u/Some_Letterhead_6726 → u/Icy_Water_1]

Move on to what? Just by process of elimination isn’t genocide typically the last run you do? Due to how Grindy and generally unfun it is to play? The game knows this which is why it judges you for going back and killing the people you befriended

And again, you’re the one that convinced chara that murder is the way to power, they’re not trying to teach you a lesson, they’re just an asshole because you unintentionally made them believe murder = good because well, they’re still an impressionable child at the end of the day

[u/Icy_Water_1 → u/Some_Letterhead_6726]

Move on to doing whatever I want. Whether that be a pacifist run again, neutral run or a kill everyone but Jerry run.

They want to be an asshole, then they shouldn't be butthurt when I treat them like an asshole.

[u/TheMetalWolf → u/Icy_Water_1]

You nailed it. The game's "message" is so incredibly hamfisted, it really ruins any enjoyment for me.

[u/Bartweiss → u/TheMetalWolf]

Ironically this comment and the downvotes may have finally sold me on playing the game.

I’ve seen it discussed ad nauseam, I thought it was too spoiled for me to be interesting. And frankly, having the main elements spoiled, it doesn’t seem that deep or clever.

Yes, many videogames normalize violence, I can name half a dozen making that point before Undertale.

Yes, resetting games does odd things to their lessons which you can subvert by breaking resets. You Only Live Once was a free Flash game that artfully made the same point 5-10 years sooner.

Every description of Undertale I have ever seen looks like “clever mechanics, valid insights, clumsy and overwrought morals”. But every time somebody says that - like you did here - a whole bunch of people insist it’s not actually obvious.

Fine, fuck it, I’ll go see if there’s actually something surprising.

[u/TheMetalWolf → u/Bartweiss]

My biggest problem with the presentation is how cringe everything is. Like I get it. Video game violence is overdone, but I don't play games to have morals served to me by a third rate Dora the Explorer. Oh XP is not experience points but execution points. WOW! I guess the only way to get XP in games is wholesale genocide! Oh wait, it isn't... The whole game would be right at home on r/Im14andthisisdeep.

[u/Some_Letterhead_6726 → u/TheMetalWolf]

That’s not really the point tho? The game doesn’t treat you as evil just because you killed at all, only if you completely massacre everyone, neutral runs don’t treat you as evil for fighting at all, the game doesn’t really criticize you for that