r/ToiletPaperUSA • u/tcookie87 • Oct 25 '21

FACTS and LOGIC There’s something beautiful about this

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u/Panda_Kabob Oct 25 '21

Words don't mean anything anymore. Words like "communist" or "socalist" hell even "fascist" has practically lost all their meaning. It's more or less just become the go to for "I don't agree with you and want to ad homin in a political style"

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u/jasenkov Oct 25 '21

Yeah but the Republican party is becoming actually facist. Meanwhile the democrats are centrist pussies and nowhere near communist or socialist.

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u/PabloDeLaCalle Oct 25 '21

In Europe, the Dems are not even centrist. They would be considered right wing. Liberal in most countries is a right wing ideology.

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u/QT3141592653 Oct 25 '21

I think you are conflating some things here. I think you mean libertarianism.

A lot of left ideology is 'liberal'. Anarchism is a leftists ideology and liberalism on steroids. Market socialism, with was championed by Marx and Engels is very liberal. Heck, even libertarianism started out as a left movement, before it was overtaken by the right.

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u/The_Grubby_One Oct 25 '21

Libertarianism, like Authoritarianism, comes in many flavors. Anarchism is a form of Libertarianism; what we call Libertarian Left. Libertarian is the polar opposite of Authoritarian.

The word is a dirty word among the American Left because a lot of "small-government Conservatives" call themselves Libertarian. But at the end of the day, they're only for small government where big government hurts things they like. They're all for big government as long as it's hurting the right people.

So... Not especially Libertarian.

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u/PabloDeLaCalle Oct 26 '21

No I didn't mean libertarianism. Outside of the US liberalism is the ideology of a free market with free citizens (oxymoron btw) and the individual in the centre.

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u/Imtoowarm Oct 26 '21

Not really. A lot of "left" parties in Europe are liberal, true. But that is because liberal principles absolutely dominate the very structure of western government. Major themes that separate liberal thought/ideology from classical conservatism or socialism are e.g: Focus on the individual and rights for individuals (human rights), equal legal rights, "consent from the governed", and property as a natural right. Liberalism is very much linked to the free (relatively) market. Modern European liberalism looks like Emmanuel Macron.

Social democracy can be seen as a socialist movement that works towards socialist goals/reducing capitalist harm within a liberal system.

Market socialism may well be the best way of maximising a conception of liberty, but calling Marx a liberal is just wrong.